NHL Playoffs 09. Drop The Puck.

Gangrel · Post by **Gangrel** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:58 pm

I think the problem is this Joe debate has both sides arguing their points very well.

Army says Joe is suffering due to his role, which is to set up his teammates. On that, I can see his argument that since his linemates suck, he is sucking. Fair point.

The other side of the fence, the others argue Joe isn't stepping it up in the playoffs, to LEAD his team, which to me entails a lot more then JUST setting up his teammates. And I think that side is right in their assesment as well.

We're arguing two sides of two different coins here.....

I haven't watched any Sharks games this playoffs, but if the TSN clips are indicative of how Joe has been playing, then I'll say he's bringing the Sharks down.

The playoffs are a war, and if the superstar player on my team skates *away* from a scrum, shies away from contact while I am bruised and bloody, and has no effort, I am not going to go through any more walls for him. Enough guys deciding this makes the team suffer.

Now, you can argue Joe ISN"T supposed to be leading the team, fair enough. But when you are the highest paid player (I think?) and pretty much the face of the franchise, you expect a little more for your dollar.....

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:58 pm

toonarmy wrote:
EZSnappin wrote: If you bother reading my posts on this matter you would see that my point is that the stats do not tell the full story. No duh, the stats of Joe are not great, I have acknowledged that. The stats are why people flip out and scream around about Joe's so-called lack of performance. I have no onus to prove anyone wrong simply because I do not hold the majority view, that is silly. I think my several posts on the matter spell out why I think the prevailing view is wrong. Try reading next before posting.

Actually, I read all your posts (though I'm glad you kindly directed me to them twice in just a few sentences, just in case), which seem to just say the same thing over and over regardless of what others post in re: to your position. And yes, if you believe there are mitigating factors to Thornton's "so-called lack of performance," it behooves you to back up your opinion. Like, with stats, or examples, or, well, anything beyond "simply because I do not hold the majority view, that is silly." Otherwise, why state it?

If I say Joe Thorton is made of green cheese and that's why he stinks it up in the playoffs, and people then point out over and over that no, Joe is in fact a human not made of cheese - green or otherwise - at some point I would be expected to either have to have something beyond, "because that's what I think," if I want to have my opinion taken seriously.

I would bet that there is factual evidence to back up your viewpoint; the idea that as a set-up man he needs guys to finish to have the same statistical value is logical. Yet in the face of his fall-off when comparable to others (as shown by PK); historical evidence of this being a repeated fall-off, regardless of teammates; and anecdotal evidence like his ducking out of a scrum, etc., I find it hard to credit your opinion versus the prevalent one without some corroborating evidence.

OT: from Thornton, but I wish you would choose your words a little better. Saying someone on this board's opinion is "shortsighted and ignorant," or saying "if you watch the team play" and "you are having problems grasping" something about hockey is not doing you any favors. Many people here live, breath and eat the sport, and making assumptions about their knowledge or understanding is rather presumptuous. I don't know you from Adam (as the saying goes), but I assume you love the sport and have a fair amount of knowledge or you wouldn't be posting. Also, you may not want to get into a snide and snarky conversation here; some of these guys are true masters.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:48 pm

toonarmy wrote:The stats are why people flip out and scream around about Joe's so-called lack of performance.

I think the lack of Stanley Cup rings -- hell, the lack of even a Finals appearance -- is another reason why people flip out about Joe's lack of performance. And there's little "so-called" about it.

Let me turn the tables: Do you think every player who turns it up a notch and delivers in the playoffs, such as Messier, does so only because of his teammates?

Did Messier's performance in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals against New Jersey in 1994 -- in which he scored a hat trick after GUARANTEEING victory to the New York media before the game -- come because all of his teammates played great?

By your standards of postseason greatness or failure, there's absolutely no way that an individual can either stand out or be a disappointment, because it's all up to the team. Why does the NHL even bother to award the Conn Smythe Trophy if the top player in the playoffs owes every ounce of his excellence for that two-month period to his team?

Finally, did you watch Game 4 of the Anaheim-San Jose series? Thornton was BRUTAL. Giveaways in the defensive zone, including the one to Getzlaf that led directly to Perry's tip goal. Soft passes in the zone. Zero points. Thornton wasn't -3 in that game because of his teammates. He flat-out sucked that game.

Take care,
PK

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:51 pm

At least Thornton's a sniper in NHL!

GameSeven · Post by **GameSeven** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:55 pm

pk500 wrote:Did Messier's performance in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals against New Jersey in 1994 -- in which he scored a hat trick after GUARANTEEING victory to the New York media before the game -- come because all of his teammates played great?

I hate you

I still think that if a 21 year old Alexei Kovalev does not score with 1:41 left in the second to cut the Devils lead to 2-1, that the Stevens' anchored defense clamps down in the third and the Devils advance

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:27 am

Khabibulin just outplayed Kiper tonight as the Hawks needed only one period to dust off the Flames. If the trend continues, this series should go to 7 games and CHI win it all as both teams can't seem to win on the road. CAL has a few guys banged up though, with the game already out of reach Phaneuf decided not to come back.

Great game in SJ, it's nail biting time with 2:30 minutes to go.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:07 am

Nice game by Thornton in an entertaining game. Three points, including the setup assist on the OT winner.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:16 am

toonarmy wrote:Nice game by Thornton in an entertaining game. Three points, including the setup assist on the OT winner.

By far his best game of the series, but one has to wonder is it a case of too little, too late.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:38 am

toonarmy wrote:Nice game by Thornton in an entertaining game. Three points, including the setup assist on the OT winner.

All the credit goes to his teammates. They played very well.

Nice to see Thornton respond, though. Panger, McKenzie and Laviolette ripped him pretty good on TSN -- all but called him a p*ssy. Give some credit to McLellan, too, for reuniting Thornton, Marleau and Setoguchi into a top line. That's one of the best lines in the NHL when it clicks.

I agree with James on Chicago-Calgary. First team to break home serve wins. Think it will go seven. I think the Caps win today, too, sending that series to seven.

Take care,
PK

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:36 am

Tortorella definitely didn't help his team by overreacting with a drunken fan.
Sure the game was out of hand already and the entire team including King Lundqvist didn't show but to behave like he did and miss game 6 could prove costly for the Rangers. Will Avery return? As much as a dickhead that he is, the Rangers need him.

Carcillo is still a kid with no brains. His fight and take down on Talbot could and should have been avoided because instead of pumping up the fans, it certainly pumped up the Pens as they scored immediately on the next shift. With the score 3-0, why would you want to take a chance?

There was a priceless image of a fan pointing at coach Stevens near the end of the game suggesting that he's a dead duck. I think so too.

Jimmydeicide · Post by **Jimmydeicide** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:28 am

Seems Big Joe isnt self motivated. He heres the same s*** every time and yet still doesnt respond until someone calls him out.

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:05 pm

GM Paul Holmgren has to take his share of the blame for the Flyers early exit. He ran too close to the salary cap all season, eventually having to trade Scottie Upshall (and a 2nd round pick) for that idiot Daniel Carcillo who yesterday gave the Penguins exactly the lift they needed by agreeing to a fight when the Flyers were up 3-0. The classless Carcillo cleaned Max Talbot's clock and then raised his arms in celebration to the cheering fans, and handed the momentum to the Pens in the process. Credit to the NBC commentator who called it as soon as the fight started.

The Flyers were also forced to play an amateur defenseman in their final regular season game, where they blew the 4th seed by not even getting a point against a Rangers team with nothing to play for, because they were so hard up against the cap.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_d ... nhl,154967

fletcher21 · Post by **fletcher21** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:22 pm

Rangers just lost the series with this game today. Look for Washington to bury them at home in game 7.

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:55 pm

I agree that's likely, but it'd be funny if they lost game 7 at home in OT for the 2nd year in a row.

toonarmy · Post by **toonarmy** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:13 pm

Anyone else catch this during the Canes game? I think this scene may be the most f'd up thing I have seen in a long time. Someone please tell me this isn't what it seems, lmao!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idzeJU5_PQY

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:26 am

The E. Staal line was just dominant against the Devils. I think they have the momentum on their side and if they can continue to shut down Z. Parise, they may just win the series as I predicted them to do. Another solid game by C. Ward.

The D. Brashear hit on Betts was a cheap shot and I was shocked that the Zebras missed it. That should have sparked the Rangers but instead the Caps took over. Rangers are one frustrated team and I too think WAS will advance to the next round.

MizzouRah · Post by **MizzouRah** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:48 pm

toonarmy wrote:Anyone else catch this during the Canes game? I think this scene may be the most f'd up thing I have seen in a long time. Someone please tell me this isn't what it seems, lmao!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idzeJU5_PQY

lol

fletcher21 · Post by **fletcher21** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:49 pm

Is Versus going to show a game tonight? It says "to be determined" Since the Nucks swept St Louis, they must have something else planned. Are there any games tonight that may get on there? I'd like to watch one

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:34 pm

fletcher21 wrote:Is Versus going to show a game tonight? It says "to be determined" Since the Nucks swept St Louis, they must have something else planned. Are there any games tonight that may get on there? I'd like to watch one

Versus.com is your friend. Sloth is your enemy.

NHL on Versus (All times ET)
Monday
Game 6: Blackhawks @ Flames, 9:30
Like Game 5, this could be over early
Game 6: Sharks @ Ducks, JIP

Take care,
PK

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:25 pm

Flames will need J.Iginla to step it up tonight as they face elimination and Iron Mike was at his usual head games with Iggy. D. Phaneuf seems to have a concussion after game 5 and won't play tonight. What the heck, I'll cheer for them tonight and may the best team face the Canucks over the weekend.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:08 pm

C. Campbell does have a beat. He slapped the Donald for six games for his cheap shot on Betts. Well deserved.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:47 pm

Poor, poor Dion. It couldn't happen to a bigger f*ck. Now I REALLY hope Chicago finishes off the Flames tonight while Phaneuf sits in the press box.

Phaneuf replaced Mike Modano as my most hated NHL player about two years ago.

Take care,
PK

fletcher21 · Post by **fletcher21** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:54 pm

pk500 wrote:
fletcher21 wrote:Is Versus going to show a game tonight? It says "to be determined" Since the Nucks swept St Louis, they must have something else planned. Are there any games tonight that may get on there? I'd like to watch one
Versus.com is your friend. Sloth is your enemy.

NHL on Versus (All times ET)
Monday
Game 6: Blackhawks @ Flames, 9:30
Like Game 5, this could be over early
Game 6: Sharks @ Ducks, JIP

Take care,
PK

lol sloth. I was just wondering if there was a 6 or 630 game they would be showing, but looks like no.

fletcher21 · Post by **fletcher21** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:56 pm

pk500 wrote:Poor, poor Dion. It couldn't happen to a bigger f*ck. Now I REALLY hope Chicago finishes off the Flames tonight while Phaneuf sits in the press box.

Phaneuf replaced Mike Modano as my most hated NHL player about two years ago.

Take care,
PK

Never heard of anyone hating Modano haha. Is this due to him beating the Oilers, or something else?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:18 pm

fletcher21 wrote:
pk500 wrote:
fletcher21 wrote:Is Versus going to show a game tonight? It says "to be determined" Since the Nucks swept St Louis, they must have something else planned. Are there any games tonight that may get on there? I'd like to watch one
Versus.com is your friend. Sloth is your enemy.

NHL on Versus (All times ET)
Monday
Game 6: Blackhawks @ Flames, 9:30
Like Game 5, this could be over early
Game 6: Sharks @ Ducks, JIP

Take care,
PK
lol sloth. I was just wondering if there was a 6 or 630 game they would be showing, but looks like no.

Kind of tough when there is no early game tonight. NHL.com is your friend; sloth is not.

Take care,
PK