OT: Racing 2008-2009 (Spoiler Alert)

fletcher21 · Post by **fletcher21** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:29 pm

Where did the United States GP go? I haven't followed F1 for a while, but that is a shocker to me.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:34 pm

fletcher21 wrote:Where did the United States GP go? I haven't followed F1 for a while, but that is a shocker to me.

Earth to Fletch: F1 last ran in the U.S. in June 2007, at Indy.

Financial terms could not be reached for a race in 2008 or thereafter at IMS, as F1 czar Bernie Ecclestone wanted too large of a sanctioning fee.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:10 pm

With only Wales Rally GB left on the worldwide motorsport calendar for 2008, it's time for everyone to list the five best races they saw this year. Mine, in order:

1. 24 Hours of Le Mans (Audi vs. Peugeot, not decided until heavy rain of final hour, epic changing conditions throughout)
2. Brazilian Grand Prix (Lewis wins world title on final corner)
3. Red Bull United States Grand Prix (Rossi vs. Stoner in epic battle at Laguna)
4. IndyCar season finale at Chicagoland (Fantastic side-by-side racing, just like the magical 2002 season)
5. Petit Le Mans (McNish's amazing comeback from two laps down at the start)

This is the first year in a while that a WRC event wouldn't be on my list. Loeb is making a mockery of that series, but I still love watching it!

Your list, fellas?

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:32 pm

I've had a few days to think of a list and I'm still struggling. Here goes nothing:

1. Brazilian Grand Prix (the 68 laps of tension that every British viewer felt, and then those final 3 laps of every possible emotion at once)
2. United States Moto GP (racing as it should be, whether Casey Stoner thinks so or not)
3. Craftsman Truck Series at Homestead (straight out of leftfield and I expect no agreement, but the final laps with Hornaday on new rubber and Benson sacrificing grip for track position at the last caution were a very engaging watch)
4. 24 Hours of Le Mans (German tortoise vs French hare all the way down to the wire)
5. British Grand Prix (for two reasons: the action from 2nd place backwards and the complete wet weather driving masterclass at the front)

I did want to put Belgium in 5th but my memory is telling me it was fairly dull until the shower at the end. My memory is also telling me to check the video on the Formula One website in case it's lying to me.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:05 pm

Hope yet for Rubens Barrichello:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72246

Some of you will know far better than me how much chance there is of the full season coming off, but I'll be keeping an eye out for Daytona at least; last time Hylton ran the qualification race it looked for all the world like he'd make it through.

On the subject of the old-timers, I wanted to quickly revisit a topic we touched upon some time ago. Now we've had another year to view the old-timers of Formula One, can anyone tell me why it is that Honda are looking odds-on to have a Brazilian not named Rubens in one of their cars next year, and who was responsible for the off-season reminder to Jarno Trulli of the word 'racing' in his job description? DC and Fisi let me down - one has done the right thing in retiring, the other should probably follow suit, Interlagos heroics notwithstanding - but I saw nothing to suggest Rubens and Jarno weren't still worthy of their places, and really don't understand why only one of those men is certain to be on the Melbourne grid.

Edited to quickly add that for those who watch the UK TV coverage, either by choice or through lack of it, BBC have confirmed Brundle is coming to them (MB confirmed this himself a few days ago, presumably to make sure nobody caved to the FIA's demands that he be dropped) alongside Jonathan Legard, the anti-Murray. DC is confirmed as a pundit along with Eddie Jordan, and Ted Kravitz has secured a pitlane gig. Lenny's continued presence in the pits is the only major surprise.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:42 am

DC and Eddie Jordan together in the booth? Warm up the seven-second delay!

Take care,
PK

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:14 pm

Well, with our move to a new house tomorrow (well, packing tomorrow and T-day, settle here Friday, homeless for 3 days, settle on new house Monday...) I'll be losing Speed Channel. We are getting rid of our Dish and going to Comcast cable, as there is no DSL in the new house and we are getting Comcasts package deal.

We are just getting the basic channels, which does not include Speed. And while it accounts for about 75% of my TV viewing, I just can't justify paying another $30 a month to get it and 200 other channels I'll never look at. So I'll be Speedless come Friday. To make matters worse, I can't stand watching NASCAR anymore so there goes the majority of the racing available on the basic channels.

At least a big thanks to PK for steering me onto the place where I can see the races eventually, even though they won't be live.

Man I wish you could just pick your own channels to watch instead of having to buy these blocks of them. Of course then I suppose Style and The Hallmark Channel would cease to exist.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:24 pm

Just because you don't get Speed Channel anymore Grant doesn't mean you can't watch races live.

Thanks to P2P links I watch live Formula 1 events, the BTCC, WTCC and some Le Mans even European Football. The recorded stuff is great after the event if you happened to miss it.

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:21 pm

Rodster you'll have to PM me with more info!

I'm writing from my in-laws house, as we are officially homeless until Monday. Spent Wednesday and Thanksgiving packing up the truck. What a huge pain in the butt, but with a few hired hands and some friends we finally got it all done.

The plus side is that I got to drive this huge 26' truck around; that thing is awesome!

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:14 pm

Gurantsu wrote:Rodster you'll have to PM me with more info!

Check your mail Grant.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:58 pm

Honda set to leave Formula One by March 2009 if a buyer is not found so says the BBC. They also say Williams is in financial difficulty and Toyota is rumored to consider whether to compete in F1.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 766092.stm

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:34 pm

I'm a bit beaten by the timing of that. I know Honda are feeling the pinch, and their UK production plants are really taking a hit right now, but to go to the trouble and expense of hiring in their current tech team, including Ross Brawn, designing the '09 car and the KERS system to go with it (and remember how far ahead of the game Honda were in getting an operational KERS running, ahead even of BMW in that area) and then pull the plug seems a bit of a last-minute panic. As recently as the last major test they were trialling men with a view to next year, weren't they?

Who are we talking about in terms of potential buyers in these economic times? Prodrive, perhaps, with their previous F1 desires, Dave Richards and his links with the Honda team (Jenson Button, for one, would be glad to see him back)? Or do you think it's curtains for them? Edited to argue with myself: Prodrive were only coming in for '08 through customer cars, so I don't suppose their situation is any different now, meaning sustaining and running a team alone is a no-go. Bernie will come up with something, I guess.

Williams have been on the back foot financially for a couple of years now, so any financial news on them is not really news at all, and it's hard to feel Toyota couldn't spend less to achieve what they're achieving now, isn't it?

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:40 pm

While I'm here, I'm glad to see Takuma Sato down for another STR test and looking good for a 2009 drive there. It's easy to feel he had his chance at Honda and blew it, but I've got nothing but admiration for the way that he stuck his head down and wrung the neck of the Super Aguri for those two and a half years, and I'd be quite happy to see him get another shot at Formula One. Same goes for Anthony Davidson, but for whatever reason that opinion isn't one the team bosses seem to share.

Lewis Hamilton, given the task of designing a super-circuit for Mobil 1 (showcased in a promo video so ineffably bad that I'll not even bother linking), came up with this list of corners pilfered from tracks the world over:

Turn 1 Turn 8, Istanbul Speed Park
2 Estoril, Magny-Cours
3 130R, Suzuka
4 Eau Rouge, Spa-Francorchamps
5 Tabac, Monaco
6 Turn 1, Suzuka
7 Pouhon, Spa-Francorchamps
8 Casino Square, Monaco
9 Mergulho, Interlagos
10 Copse, Silverstone

OK, you could never pass there, but that's hardly stopped Tilke half the time, has it?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:48 pm

Simo:

Hamilton's list is dominated by three circuits -- Suzuka, Monaco and Spa. A pretty damning indictment of modern circuit design. Danke, Herr Tilke, you idiot.

I don't understand the love affair with Monaco. There really aren't any ballsy corners on that circuit in the traditional sense of high speed, high G loading corners like Blanchimont, Eau Rouge or 130R. I guess guys love it because there's no margin for error, and the concrete walls are just centimeters away.

Big whoop -- IndyCar and CART/Champ Car drivers do/did that on an oval running three-wide at 220 mph. Maybe that's why the fearsome concrete walls of Monaco never have impressed me much and why I don't share the same affection for the circuit as many others. It's a circuit with a ton of history and tradition, but it's a sh*tty racing circuit.

Regarding Honda, the timing is puzzling. And call me a skeptic, but is the economic downturn the pure reason for this abrupt turn toward withdrawal, or have the suits in Tokyo realized that they've thrown away probably close to $1 billion in the last five seasons with little or nothing to show for it?

Same with Toyota, although that team showed improvement and more promise this season. Still nowhere near what the expense should deliver, though.

It's no secret that the Japanese management style of discussion until total agreement is reached does not work in the fluid, cutting-edge world of F1. I have read where Nick Fry had to wait on consensus to be reached in Tokyo on numerous decisions, which simply does not work in an industry with the bullet-train pace of development like F1. With McLaren, it's simple: Ron Dennis calls Norbert Haug. Done. With Ferrari, Stefano Domencali calls Luca di Montezemolo. Done.

I shed plenty of tears for Williams. This is an iconic team of worldwide motor racing, a name that has represented excellence. It would be one thing if this team was like Lotus or Tyrrell, two teams that died because of poor management or a failure to keep pace technically.

But I'm convinced the only reason Williams can't keep pace is because it doesn't have a tight partnership with a major auto company. When Williams and BMW were together at the turn of this decade, they kicked ass.

The problem is that Frank Williams and Patrick Head never have subscribed to the theory that major automotive partners should be integrated into their team. When Williams kicked ass with Honda and Renault, those companies were engine suppliers, nothing more. Frank and Patrick and Frank Dernie handled all of the design and engineering of the chassis, and the race team.

That's how it started with BMW, and the partnership prospered. But then Theissen wanted to integrate BMW into Williams like Mercedes had done at McLaren, and Sir Frank and Patrick bristled. Soon thereafter, Tammy Wynette was singing "D-I-V-O-R-C-E."

So as long as F1 relies on complete manufacturer integration and Sir Frank and Patrick remain obstinate about that, Williams will be a slowing sinking island.

One only hopes the team can survive long enough until the sport reverts to its proper functional model, privateer teams run by racers with petrol in their veins -- like Sir Frank, Patrick and Ron Dennis -- with possible linkups to auto manufacturers as engine suppliers.

F1 means everything to guys like that. It means nothing to suits at major auto manufacturers, and that's why it's one of the first things to be cut or eliminated during a recession.

Bernie never has appreciated that as manufacturers have taken over the sport in the last 10 years, which is odd considering he once was one of those swashbuckling privateers, running Brabham.

Take care,
PK

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:25 am

pk500 wrote:One only hopes the team can survive long enough until the sport reverts to its proper functional model, privateer teams run by racers with petrol in their veins -- like Sir Frank, Patrick and Ron Dennis -- with possible linkups to auto manufacturers as engine suppliers.

F1 means everything to guys like that. It means nothing to suits at major auto manufacturers, and that's why it's one of the first things to be cut or eliminated during a recession.

Bernie never has appreciated that as manufacturers have taken over the sport in the last 10 years, which is odd considering he once was one of those swashbuckling privateers, running Brabham.

Certainly startling news to read about Honda's potential demise and I share your feelings about Williams.

But here's the question I have--if there is a mass exodus from the manufacturer teams, who can pick up the pieces? How many "Frank Williamses" can you find today able to buy a team and put up the necessary capital to keep them running? And who will they find to sponsor the car?

F1 could quickly find itself at the brink.

Overall, it could be a very ugly picture for motorsports over the next coupld years. In NASCAR, you have the possible folding of Petty Enterprises into GEM and the IRL appears to have plenty of its own issues.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:50 pm

Completely revolutionised Formula One to be announced tomorrow, apparently, perhaps:

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=44752

Before you all go thinking Max has been at the sensible pills, wait a second. In the week, the Gruppenführer offered up this:

"What is wrong with F1 was wrong before any of the current economic problems cropped up, and essentially it is because of the rules. You might well say that the rules are made by the FIA, so it is the FIA's fault. In a sense that is true because the rules in Formula One are ever more restrictive, compressing the work of the engineers into an ever smaller area. But we had to do that otherwise the speeds of the cars would have risen to a point where the safety precautions on the circuit, and the cars themselves, would have become inadequate.

"So now these huge teams, with between 700 to 1,000 employees, are constantly searching for tiny incremental gains on their car. Success in Formula One today consists of optimising every single tiny detail on the chassis to the absolute, ultimate degree, and that is extremely expensive, but also utterly pointless. One example is that the wheels on one of the teams are made so light that they regularly fail when the tyres are put on them. But that team, like all the others, is looking for every tiny increment of performance. This has created a mentality in Formula One where the engineers are really only comfortable in refinement. They don't really do innovation, and that is destroying Formula One."

Now, I'm not arguing with very much of that. Really, he did well right up until the last sentence. Is is too much of a stretch, though, to suppose that had the independent rear brake pedal, the Renault mass damper or even front torque transfer systems remained legal instead of being cast out, the governing body might be seen to be giving licence to innovate, instead of appearing to discourage it?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:58 pm

This cost-cutting pursuit is quite trivial. It's good PR in an era in which many F1 punters are hurting in their pocketbooks.

Anyone who thinks this will change F1 is a fool. Motor racing always has been, is and always will be about cubic dollars as much as cubic inches. Teams will spend every penny they have in pursuit of minuscule gains.

So if McLaren and Ferrari can't test in 2009 or must be forced to use a standard engine in 2010, they'll spend their $250 million annual budgets on higher driver salaries, more sophisticated CAD software, more sophisticated simulators, etc.

For example: An unnamed F1 team spent $800 apiece this season on wheel nuts that could only be affixed once and then tossed into the trash. The team went through 1,000 of them this season. That's $800,000 on f*cking wheel nuts!

This only will redistribute the huge expense of F1. It may trim the cost on the surface, but McLaren and Ferrari aren't going to offer the money saved by these new regulations to pauper teams like Williams and Force India.

Until revenue sharing or an expenditures cap comes to F1, nothing will change in the petrol world order. Only manufacturer teams -- like BMW, Toyota and Renault -- will be subjected to budget cuts determined by a board outside of racing.

Meanwhile, Ferrari, McLaren (don't bank on Mercedes pulling any funding plugs) and Red Bull will continue to spend like drunken sailors on shore leave after pay day. And the true cost of the sport will not be reduced.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:20 pm

I've been calling for F1 budget caps since 2003. I was on another F1 forum and called for caps on budgets and the idea got laughed at. The only way costs will come under control is if every team has the same amount of money they can spend per year. And if they decide to go over then treat them like the NY Yankees in baseball where they have to pay a fine that's redistributed amongst the teams.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:59 pm

Just read the proposed changes to F1, which of course the dottering Autosport called "radical." In summary, it's one of the most overhyped pieces of horseshit I've seen in racing in a long time.

There are only three things worth noting:

1. A ban on in-season testing starting in 2009.
2. Cheaper engines for independent teams starting in 2009.
3. A ban on refueling starting in 2010.

Otherwise, it's a TON of ado over nothing. Teams will continue to spend money elsewhere, such as CFD and wind-tunnel testing. Teams now will pound out even more thousands of test miles during the offseason.

The gap between the haves and the have-nots will remain huge. Does anyone really believe that a manufacturer is going to supply the same spec engine to a privateer team as the works team, especially at a cut rate?

What a joke.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:46 pm

Aye, what an utterly wet announcement that was.

The refuelling ban...good for the short-term, but given the talk of making the sport greener and more environmentally friendly, and the possibility of V6 turbos looming on the horizon, there's a danger of racing turning into the fuel economy run it was in the mid 1980's, and that's not something I'd relish.

Elsewhere, the Race of Champions at Wembley gave Carl Edwards a moment to dine out on in Europe for some time to come, and brought victory for a man who really can drive anything:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72476

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:51 pm

I say wrt the fueling ban don't ban it it at all. If someone needs to pit for fuel that's their choice or just stay out on the track till the end of the race on a tank of fuel. That should make things interesting.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:48 pm

Subaru out of WRC:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72492

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:01 pm

GB_Simo wrote:Subaru out of WRC:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72492

My son and I are gutted. The WRC will be a joke next season with just two works teams, the horrible, rotation-based schedule, etc.

If I was Loeb, I'd request an immediate transfer to the Peugeot Le Mans program. Why delay the inevitable?

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:18 pm

That's too bad re: the WRC but you guys had called this a long time ago IIRC. What's more disturbing is the downward trend in motorsports in general. There is not one of the major series I know of that is not affected by the financial crisis.

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:04 pm

Man, 10 years ago I could not get enough of the WRC. I imported mags, searched all over the internet, and watched what I could find on "Speedvision", and I hate to admit that this year I did not watch or follow closely any rallies.