OT: Election/Politics thread, Part 6

[Jared]

And welfare rewards laziness. There are jobs-McDonald's hires at a higher rate than most welfare pays out on an annual basis-people just won't DO those jobs. Illegal immigrants wouldn't have so much work if the people on our welfare rolls weren't sitting on their ass drawing it. And welfare comes out of MY pocket-not interested in the government dipping into my wallet for something I don't approve of.

Bingo...we have a winner! I am all for welfare for those who do not have a CHOICE in working or not working. What I am sick of is paying taxes and supporting those who CHOOSE to stay home and collect a check, make babies, play video games because they have a CHOICE in whether to WORK to get paid or NOT WORK and get paid. Somehow, some way, that s*** has got to stop, but it won't until the Govt. quits giving out free money to those who CAN work and CHOOSE not to. I don't think the Obama administration will improve on this, in fact I believe it may get much worse.....

Clinton's (yes, a Democrat) welfare reform made a lot of changes to the system to deal with these kinds of issues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_R ... tunity_Act

The bill's primary requirements and effects included:

* Ending welfare as an entitlement program;
* Requiring recipients to begin working after two years of receiving benefits;
* Placing a lifetime limit of five years on benefits paid by federal funds;
* Aiming to encourage two-parent families and discouraging out-of-wedlock births.

You also assume that getting a job is simply a choice for everyone. If you live in a economically disadvantaged area where jobs are scarce (i.e. the ghetto), there aren't enough jobs for everyone to have a choice.

What would happen if welfare was completely stopped?

[DivotMaker]

1. Clinton's (yes, a Democrat) welfare reform made a lot of changes to the system to deal with these kinds of issues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_R ... tunity_Act

The bill's primary requirements and effects included:

* Ending welfare as an entitlement program;
* Requiring recipients to begin working after two years of receiving benefits;
* Placing a lifetime limit of five years on benefits paid by federal funds;
* Aiming to encourage two-parent families and discouraging out-of-wedlock births.

2. You also assume that getting a job is simply a choice for everyone. If you live in a economically disadvantaged area where jobs are scarce (i.e. the ghetto), there aren't enough jobs for everyone to have a choice.

What would happen if welfare was completely stopped?

1. I am aware of what Clinton helped enact into law. However, if it was truly working as designed and people weren't circumventing the system, why are illegal aliens coming into the US still? If everyone who COULD work and the key word here is WANTED to work, then we would not still have huge influxes of illegal aliens coming to the US to work at jobs that US citizens won't touch. Like Jackdog, I know people personally who are on welfare by CHOICE and not because they CAN'T work or don't have job opportunities.

2. Never stated that some people aren't hindered by where they live. If you will notice I was only referring to those who CAN work and choose not to. And welfare will never be completely stopped IMO. If there were a legitimate process where they could ensure that those who REALLY NEED welfare are getting it and those who DON'T aren't. When that day comes, I will stop talking about welfare.

[XXXIV]

We are back on attacking welfare. Next thing we need to do is talk about Clinton's impeachment. No wait, let's revisit Carter's domestic policies.

Current welfare programs, re-done under Clinton are based on work requirements and are mostly temporary.

I have people in my family that work the system and do exactly what Teal and DivotMaker are complaning about. If your cool with paying for people like that fine. But they have a right to b*tch about it as long as they pay the freight.

WRONG!!!!

Give your money and shut the f*** up hater!!!!

[Rodster]

We are back on attacking welfare. Next thing we need to do is talk about Clinton's impeachment. No wait, let's revisit Carter's domestic policies.

Current welfare programs, re-done under Clinton are based on work requirements and are mostly temporary.

I have people in my family that work the system and do exactly what Teal and DivotMaker are complaning about. If your cool with paying for people like that fine. But they have a right to b*tch about it as long as they pay the freight.

WRONG!!!!

Give your money and shut the f*** up hater!!!!

[Jared]

1. I am aware of what Clinton helped enact into law. However, if it was truly working as designed and people weren't circumventing the system, why are illegal aliens coming into the US still? If everyone who COULD work and the key word here is WANTED to work, then we would not still have huge influxes of illegal aliens coming to the US to work at jobs that US citizens won't touch. Like Jackdog, I know people personally who are on welfare by CHOICE and not because they CAN'T work or don't have job opportunities.

Welfare reform has little/nothing to do with illegal immigration. The jobs that illegal aliens fill are illegal jobs that pay below minimum wage. Illegal aliens are more than willing to get paid below minimum wage (since they're already in the country illegally); American's aren't.

If the jobs that illegal aliens have paid minimum wage, I think you'd see Americans in those jobs.

2. Never stated that some people aren't hindered by where they live. If you will notice I was only referring to those who CAN work and choose not to. And welfare will never be completely stopped IMO. If there were a legitimate process where they could ensure that those who REALLY NEED welfare are getting it and those who DON'T aren't. When that day comes, I will stop talking about welfare.

Understood. There are people that cheat the system with welfare, just as with nearly every system. However, I think that after reforms, the cheats are substantially outnumbered by those that actually need it. Although I'm curious as to what current numbers are on this.

[Jackdog]

* Ending welfare as an entitlement program;
* Requiring recipients to begin working after two years of receiving benefits;
* Placing a lifetime limit of five years on benefits paid by federal funds;
* Aiming to encourage two-parent families and discouraging out-of-wedlock births.

You also assume that getting a job is simply a choice for everyone. If you live in a economically disadvantaged area where jobs are scarce (i.e. the ghetto), there aren't enough jobs for everyone to have a choice.

What would happen if welfare was completely stopped?

The people that live in so called "Ghetto's"( I used to call my neighborhood that until I served in Africa and the Middle East.) have access to programs that provide them with free bus passes to get to work.

The welfare system will always be there is one way or another to help disabled, elderly, handicapped, mentally challenged and those who aren‘t physically able to work. I have no problem at all with my tax money going to help them. The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act helped curb abuse, but welfare is stll left to the discretion of individual states. Abuse is still going on. In Michigan and Ohio a family can receive assistance for a lifetime total of 60 months, but families can receive assistance for 12 months after a birth that would be exempt from the lifetime total.

The problems I have with my five cousins and one sister is this. They are all single mothers with a total of 31 children on welfare. They are all given free bith control yet they choose to have kids out of wedlock in an environment that will more than likely lead there boys to crime and prison.

My father is digusted with the current situation. Even though his family was poor, he was raised never to accept anything he didn’t work for.

He talks about his younger days and says things like “Black men had pride back then". Supporting your family made you honorable, no matter what your job was. Then welfare came along and disrupted all of it. As far as my community goes I agree with my father.

I beleive no one capable of work should be allowed to just receive free money without giving the government or the state something in return. Money is tight for most everyone and we would all love to have a little extra help from Uncle Sam, but you must honestly earn what you receive. There is always volunteer work with the community, churches, youth group and food banks. My family members would be caring for their children as well as training to work in the day care field.

Some people blame the poverty on the person that is poor. I don't. Most poor people are not bad. They are folks that may have ran into some tough times in their life. I have no problem with them using welfare to get back on track. 12 months is plenty of time in my opinion. I have problems with the people that abuse the system like the family members I mentioned.

[Jackdog]

Can someone with a much better grasp of finance than myself explain this. The auto makers were making money hand over fist in the 90's and were giving out profit checks to union member like candy. Why should we have to pay for their fiscal irresponsibility?The unions destroyed this industry and the unions can fix it. No more bailouts. They have already received 25 Billion too much.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081109/bush_automakers.html

Automakers already want an additional $50 billion in loans from Congress to help them survive tough economic conditions and pay for health care obligations for retirees. The companies are seeking the loans as part of an economic aid plan that is now more likely to come together early next year rather than in a postelection session of Congress this month.

[Jared]

I beleive no one capable of work should be allowed to just receive free money without giving the government or the state something in return. Money is tight for most everyone and we would all love to have a little extra help from Uncle Sam, but you must honestly earn what you receive. There is always volunteer work with the community, churches, youth group and food banks. My family members would be caring for their children as well as training to work in the day care field.

You know, something like that is a great idea. If you're on welfare, you have to do some sort of service work for their community; otherwise they don't get money. I wonder why no one's proposed this.

[Feanor]

Workfare.

[XXXIV]

I beleive no one capable of work should be allowed to just receive free money without giving the government or the state something in return. Money is tight for most everyone and we would all love to have a little extra help from Uncle Sam, but you must honestly earn what you receive. There is always volunteer work with the community, churches, youth group and food banks. My family members would be caring for their children as well as training to work in the day care field.

You know, something like that is a great idea. If you're on welfare, you have to do some sort of service work for their community; otherwise they don't get money. I wonder why no one's proposed this.

FDR did something like that.

[Jackdog]

You know, something like that is a great idea. If you're on welfare, you have to do some sort of service work for their community; otherwise they don't get money. I wonder why no one's proposed this.

Like Feanor said. Workfare. Jared, I have no idea why this isn't an option. One would think folks would feel better about themselves and the community if they worked too improve it.

[GameSeven]

You know, something like that is a great idea. If you're on welfare, you have to do some sort of service work for their community; otherwise they don't get money. I wonder why no one's proposed this.

[Jackdog]

[matthewk]

Can someone with a much better grasp of finance than myself explain this. The auto makers were making money hand over fist in the 90's and were giving out profit checks to union member like candy. Why should we have to pay for their fiscal irresponsibility?The unions destroyed this industry and the unions can fix it. No more bailouts. They have already received 25 Billion too much.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081109/bush_automakers.html

Automakers already want an additional $50 billion in loans from Congress to help them survive tough economic conditions and pay for health care obligations for retirees. The companies are seeking the loans as part of an economic aid plan that is now more likely to come together early next year rather than in a postelection session of Congress this month.

I wanted to bring up the whole auto industry issue here after reading and hearing quite a bit more about it on Friday.

On the one hand, I don't want to see the "big three" (no, not KG, Allen, and Pierce ) vanish. I'm sure our country would get along with out them if we had to, but they are a symbol to what the people in our country can accomplish, and it is something we actually produce AND buy here. I also know of people working in the auto industry that I do want to see out of work.

On the other hand, the companies got themselves into this mess. THe taxpayers never agreed to the labor contracts, and therefore we should not be made responsible for them now. If the govt. caves for them, who will be the next in line for a govt. handout. Not to mention the fact that we can't afford it. The more bailouts we gives, the further we sink into a future abyss. I have a hard time thinking that the govt. would give billions to these companies so that a large portion of that money could go to pensions. I probably won't have one when I retire, and if the govt. keeps chipping away at my income, I won't have much to save on my own.

The thing killing these companies are what I'd call "unproductive expenses". GM has 6 times as many people sucking pensions out of them as they have active workers. The math no longer works out. They backed themselves into a corner that I'm note sure they can get out of without either outside help (like the govt.) or going bankrupt.

[Rodster]

The US Auto industry better not implode or say hello to a major recession/depression. There's no doubt that the unions totally F-uped the auto industry. When you have people on the low end of the totem pole making 50K plus with menial jobs in the auto industry, something tells you we got a problem. I read up on this as well as was annoyed as hell that the big three didn't go after the unions more.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081109/ap_ ... teWLCs0NUE

If the US auto industry implodes you will have mass amounts of workers affected (anyone's guess 100k-500k could be more). Dealers, sales, service and parts individuals as well as parts suppliers. Not a good recipe if your trying to turn around the economy. If Washington bailed out the banks and stock market they should add the big three.

[DivotMaker]

Welfare reform has little/nothing to do with illegal immigration. The jobs that illegal aliens fill are illegal jobs that pay below minimum wage. Illegal aliens are more than willing to get paid below minimum wage (since they're already in the country illegally); American's aren't.

If the jobs that illegal aliens have paid minimum wage, I think you'd see Americans in those jobs.

Categorically UNTRUE. While there are some jobs that fit that category, to suggest that illegal aliens are only working at illegal jobs is simply misinformed. While you likely will not find illegal aliens at legitimate white-collar jobs, there are thousands upon thousands of illegal aliens working at fast food restaurants and various other lower-paying jobs that certainly aren't below minimum wage. Hell, I know of a couple of illegal aliens that mow lawns in my neighborhood who are making $50K or more a year.....

[JRod]

The US Auto industry better not implode or say hello to a major recession/depression. There's no doubt that the unions totally F-uped the auto industry. When you have people on the low end of the totem pole making 50K plus with menial jobs in the auto industry, something tells you we got a problem. I read up on this as well as was annoyed as hell that the big three didn't go after the unions more.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081109/ap_ ... teWLCs0NUE

If the US auto industry implodes you will have mass amounts of workers affected (anyone's guess 100k-500k could be more). Dealers, sales, service and parts individuals as well as parts suppliers. Not a good recipe if your trying to turn around the economy. If Washington bailed out the banks and stock market they should add the big three.

Ya blame the unions. The problem had more to do with the big three making automobiles people didn't want. When the price of gas went up their major sellers like big trucks, SUVs and other large vehicles couldn't sell. So they are stuck with all this inventory in a poor climate.

Whereas foreign makers focused on cars not suvs.

Stop blaming unions when the big three didn't adapt fast enough and wanted to sell the wrong type of vehicles.

Why isn't it the big three's fault for their failure?

[JRod]

Welfare reform has little/nothing to do with illegal immigration. The jobs that illegal aliens fill are illegal jobs that pay below minimum wage. Illegal aliens are more than willing to get paid below minimum wage (since they're already in the country illegally); American's aren't.

If the jobs that illegal aliens have paid minimum wage, I think you'd see Americans in those jobs.

Categorically UNTRUE. While there are some jobs that fit that category, to suggest that illegal aliens are only working at illegal jobs is simply misinformed. While you likely will not find illegal aliens at legitimate white-collar jobs, there are thousands upon thousands of illegal aliens working at fast food restaurants and various other lower-paying jobs that certainly aren't below minimum wage. Hell, I know of a couple of illegal aliens that mow lawns in my neighborhood who are making $50K or more a year.....

States in the last two years have passed tougher employment requirements. Now in southwest states you'll find more working because of the numbers. But it's tougher for illegal aliens to work in places like corporate chains, whether they are McDonalds or wal-mart.

Illegals are mostly doing jobs that don't require documentation like lawn mowing.

Some businesses will hire undocumented workers, but with the recent busts by ICE many businesses have been sent a message that could be targeted.

All of this contributes to more undocumented workers finding jobs they don't require documentation. There are exceptions but the majority of undocumented workers are doing jobs they don't require ID or where a business looks the other way.

[pk500]

The US Auto industry better not implode or say hello to a major recession/depression. There's no doubt that the unions totally F-uped the auto industry. When you have people on the low end of the totem pole making 50K plus with menial jobs in the auto industry, something tells you we got a problem. I read up on this as well as was annoyed as hell that the big three didn't go after the unions more.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081109/ap_ ... teWLCs0NUE

If the US auto industry implodes you will have mass amounts of workers affected (anyone's guess 100k-500k could be more). Dealers, sales, service and parts individuals as well as parts suppliers. Not a good recipe if your trying to turn around the economy. If Washington bailed out the banks and stock market they should add the big three.

Ya blame the unions. The problem had more to do with the big three making automobiles people didn't want. When the price of gas went up their major sellers like big trucks, SUVs and other large vehicles couldn't sell. So they are stuck with all this inventory in a poor climate.

Whereas foreign makers focused on cars not suvs.

Stop blaming unions when the big three didn't adapt fast enough and wanted to sell the wrong type of vehicles.

Why isn't it the big three's fault for their failure?

Ignoring the extortion by the UAW is just as naive as ignoring American auto makers' misinterpretation of the market and lower quality vehicles than their Japanese counterparts.

The ridiculous GM pension plan, which guaranteed lifetime health benefits and a full pension for UAW workers retired from GM, is a prime example of UAW extortion that hurt GM. Of course, GM agreed to it, so it takes two to tango.

But to infer the UAW played no role in the downfall of the "Big Three" is a classic case of thinking with blinders on.

And it's also VERY naive to say the Japanese concentrated on cars while the "Big Three" focused on trucks and SUV's. Every Japanese manufacturer has rolled out a fleet of SUV's since American SUV's proved popular. Same with mini-vans once the Dodge Caravan caught fire 20 years ago.

And even Honda introduced the Ridgeline full-size pickup truck. Toyota produced the Tundra and the Tacoma. Nissan produces the Titan, just about the largest pickup on the road outside of an F-350.

So it's flat-out wrong to say the Japanese focused on cars while Americans did nothing but build gas-guzzling trucks and SUV's.

Take care,
PK

[Rodster]

Ya blame the unions.

Stop blaming unions when the big three didn't adapt fast enough and wanted to sell the wrong type of vehicles.

Why isn't it the big three's fault for their failure?

That's right I blame the unions. The unions are 80% of the problem and 20% the car makers are to blame. Funny how Toyota, Honda, Nissan and the rest of the car companies who build their cars here have no unions and don't want unions because they have destroyed the auto business here in the US.

On average American cars today are just as good as their Japanese counterparts and have been for the last 10-15 years. No company is going to survive pay outrageous salaries to assembly line workers and pay all the entitlements the unions have fought for. You eventually will go bankrupt which is where they are at today.

They were in really bad shape prior to the financial mess as Chrysler almost went under.

[XXXIV]

The Unions ...dirty corrupt assholes run them. What do you expect?

[pk500]

GM must add approximately $1,500 to the sticker price of every one of its vehicles compared its foreign counterpart to cover its health care costs.

That makes it damn tough for GM to compete without cutting corners in design, engineering and production.

In 2007, GM was paying FULL healthcare benefits for 900,000 UAW workers and dependent spouses even though only 180,000 were actually employed on GM lines. That's right -- GM was providing lifetime healthcare benefits for 720,000 UAW retirees and their dependent spouses.

Again, pretty tough to compete under those circumstances.

Take care,
PK

[fletcher21]

[quote="Rodster"][quote="JRod"]
On average American cars today are just as good as their Japanese counterparts and have been for the last 10-15 years. quote]

Name me 1 American car that can compete with the Honda Accord/ Toyota Camry in the mass-produced family car market?

[Rodster]

Name me 1 American car that can compete with the Honda Accord/ Toyota Camry in the mass-produced family car market?

That's an easy one. Ford Taurus and the Ford Focus. I own a Taurus, they get good gas mileage and are reliable. The Ford Focus gets great gas mileage and are also very dependable.

That's just two off the top of my head. The new redesigned Chevy Lumina won Motor Track car of the year.

[Jackdog]

Name me 1 American car that can compete with the Honda Accord/ Toyota Camry in the mass-produced family car market?

That's an easy one. Ford Taurus and the Ford Focus. I own a Taurus, they get good gas mileage and are reliable. The Ford Focus gets great gas mileage and are also very dependable.

That's just two off the top of my head. The new redesigned Chevy Lumina won Motor Track car of the year.

We love our Focus. Hell my wife got over 350,000 out of her 96 Escort. We gave that to one of my sisters and it's still running fine. We're a Ford family.