OT: Elections/Politics thread, part 5

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Post by pk500 »

JackDog wrote:I came to that conclusion after the town hall debate. I wish our party did more to promote Barr and the party line. Until it does,our votes are like "Pissing in the wind". But at the very least we can sleep at night knowing we didn't help fleece Americans.
Agreed, and I don't think our votes are urinating in the breeze for just that reason.

I think people who vote for Barr do it because they believe he is the best man for the job and would lead the country and its Federal government in the proper direction. That's certainly my rationale.

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Post by Jared »

JackDog wrote:What is this?
Obama looks aloof because he is an intelligent individual and unfortunately for the rest of us there are a lot of stupid people out there who are offended by those brighter than they are. Get over it.
Calling everyone in this forum that doesn't agree with Obama stupid is cool?
I don't believe he was addressing anyone in the forums, but was claiming that there are some stupid people that are offended by those brighter than they are. Nowhere in this is he saying that all people who aren't voting for Obama are "offended by those brighter than they are", or were these comments directed at anyone on these forums.
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Post by Jackdog »

RobVarak wrote:Doesn't matter, JackDog. Reality has become Obama's b*tch at this point.

The lunatics shouting "Kill him!" at Palin rallies that Obama and the media have been hyperventilating about for the last week?

Didn't happen.

http://www.timesleader.com/news/breakin ... nded_.html
Agent Bill Slavoski said he was in the audience, along with an undisclosed number of additional secret service agents and other law enforcement officers and not one heard the comment.

“I was baffled,” he said after reading the report in Wednesday’s Times-Tribune.

He said the agency conducted an investigation Wednesday, after seeing the story, and could not find one person to corroborate the allegation other than Singleton.

I never believed it. Not at a Mccain rally.
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Post by Jackdog »

Jared wrote:
JackDog wrote:What is this?
Obama looks aloof because he is an intelligent individual and unfortunately for the rest of us there are a lot of stupid people out there who are offended by those brighter than they are. Get over it.
Calling everyone in this forum that doesn't agree with Obama stupid is cool?
I don't believe he was addressing anyone in the forums, but was claiming that there are some stupid people that are offended by those brighter than they are. Nowhere in this is he saying that all people who aren't voting for Obama are "offended by those brighter than they are", or were these comments directed at anyone on these forums.
That's cool. Just stopping bullshit before it starts. :wink:
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Post by JackB1 »

macsomjrr wrote:
How about "acting healthy" and not looking like he is about to drop off the face of the Earth in the next four years leaving the hockey mom in charge of the WH. No thank you.

McCain has absolutely allowed the worst of him to be brought out in this election and I feel badly for him because of it. He makes snide comments, constantly rolls his eyes and looks away like a school girl being scolded for missing detention. It's unprofessional and oddly immature for a man his age. Obama looks aloof because he is an intelligent individual and unfortunately for the rest of us there are a lot of stupid people out there who are offended by those brighter than they are. Get over it. We need an intelligent, well-rounded, leader in the WH and Obama is the one to provide that leadership along with Biden. Look at what happened the last time we had an intelligent well educated figure in the WH, things were prosperous and life was good. The worst thing that happened involved a cigar and black dress. Now eight years later we look around and things are absolutely terrible. The deficit, a failing economy, a futile war, on and on... Is it all Bush? No. But I promise you he has contributed boatloads to the crappy position we find ourselves in as a country. It's time for change.
Very well said Mac. You summed it up perfectly.

There is a difference between acting aloof and cool and collected and just remaining calm. It is because you already know exactly how to handle what your opponent is saying and want to show that you aren't rattled easily.

Obama is 25 years younger than McCain, but it was McCain who appeared more immature and looked like a kid who just had his toys taken away. I think Obama will be a much better face of the USA to the rest of the world than McCain would have been and that is very important to me. After the face we have representing us the past 8 years, we need lots of damage control and someone who can help us gain back some respectability.
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Post by Jackdog »

pk500 wrote:
Agreed, and I don't think our votes are urinating in the breeze for just that reason.

I think people who vote for Barr do it because they believe he is the best man for the job and would lead the country and its Federal government in the proper direction. That's certainly my rationale.

Take care,
PK
I wish could could agree,but I think people will vote for Barr just because he's not McCain or Obama. Sadly many people that call themselves Libertarians don't have a clue what the party stands for. I said this the last election but sometimes it doesn't hurt to be redundant. Maybe this election will change that before the next one. How many years have you been waiting for "The Awakening"? :wink:
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Post by Jackdog »

RobVarak wrote:Doesn't matter, JackDog. Reality has become Obama's b*tch at this point.
Sometimes people need to get what they ask for. If he wins,let see how long he stays "The Messiah".
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Post by JackB1 »

Jared wrote:
JackDog wrote:What is this?
Obama looks aloof because he is an intelligent individual and unfortunately for the rest of us there are a lot of stupid people out there who are offended by those brighter than they are. Get over it.
Calling everyone in this forum that doesn't agree with Obama stupid is cool?
I don't believe he was addressing anyone in the forums, but was claiming that there are some stupid people that are offended by those brighter than they are. Nowhere in this is he saying that all people who aren't voting for Obama are "offended by those brighter than they are", or were these comments directed at anyone on these forums.
I agree. "people out there" is just that. He didn't say "people in here".

And this is coming from someone who is a little familiar with unintentionally offending the entire DSP group :)
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Post by JackB1 »

[quote="pk500"]

Will your tax increase appear presidential, too?

/quote]

Did you miss this article?
http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/ec ... /index.htm

Unless you make over 227K, your taxes won't increase.
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Post by JackB1 »

Teal wrote:
What in the hell does this 'acting presidential' mean?
I'll show an example of what is NOT acting presidential:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/bush ... foolme.htm
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Post by Naples39 »

JackB1 wrote:
pk500 wrote:
Will your tax increase appear presidential, too?

/quote]

Did you miss this article?
http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/ec ... /index.htm

Unless you make over 227K, your taxes won't increase.
A tax plan isn't better simply because your individual bottom line liability will go up or down. Tax policy is filled with moral and policy issues, and ideally it should be forward looking and try to incentive-ize various behaviors on a macro level.

If it was as simple as 'I vote for the candidate who will make my taxes lower', shouldn't YOU have been voting republican for the last 30 years?
Last edited by Naples39 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by XXXIV »

JackB1 wrote:
Unless you make over 227K, your taxes won't increase.
1)Is he or is he not going to let the present tax cut expire?...If so your taxes will go up.

2)Then we add our new taxes...but only those making over 227k...lets see...Who makes that much...small business owners maybe...could be? How does that help?

3) You actually believe that it will end there? 4) I see a problem with the math.
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Post by GameSeven »

Jared wrote:
JackDog wrote:What is this?
Obama looks aloof because he is an intelligent individual and unfortunately for the rest of us there are a lot of stupid people out there who are offended by those brighter than they are. Get over it.
Calling everyone in this forum that doesn't agree with Obama stupid is cool?
I don't believe he was addressing anyone in the forums, but was claiming that there are some stupid people that are offended by those brighter than they are. Nowhere in this is he saying that all people who aren't voting for Obama are "offended by those brighter than they are", or were these comments directed at anyone on these forums.
Not to be pedantic, but I do think the comment was rather baiting. And it's subject were not those "who aren't voting for Obama" but those who thought BO "seems aloof," seemingly in response to certain poster's opinions in this thread. His "Get over it" admonishment also would seem to imply an inward direction to his statement.

I feel FP was well within the right on his first comment, though I can see why you'd take issue with the latter.

Regardless, the "unfortunately for the rest of us..." comment speaks volumes and reinforces the notion that elitism frequently accompanies the DEM adherents.
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Post by GameSeven »

XXXIV wrote:
JackB1 wrote:
Unless you make over 227K, your taxes won't increase.
1)Is he or is he not going to let the present tax cut expire?...If so your taxes will go up.

2)Then we add our new taxes...but only those making over 227k...lets see...Who makes that much...small business owners maybe...could be? How does that help?

3) You actually believe that it will end there? 4) I see a problem with the math.
Actually, when comparing the plans against one another and not today's plan, the threshold at which a difference is made is 112K.

Further, there has been no substantive rebuttal of Rob's contention about the refundable nature of the credits in BO's plan. This would be a significant facet of tax policy that needs some justification to the American public, IMHO.
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Post by JackB1 »

XXXIV wrote:
JackB1 wrote:
Unless you make over 227K, your taxes won't increase.
1)Is he or is he not going to let the present tax cut expire?...If so your taxes will go up.

2)Then we add our new taxes...but only those making over 227k...lets see...Who makes that much...small business owners maybe...could be? How does that help?

3) You actually believe that it will end there? 4) I see a problem with the math.
I know this isn't as simple as I am making it. But I don't think there are enough major differences between the two candidates tax plan proposals (unless you are in the upper income echelon) to warrant choosing one based solely on that. Bush kept his tax cuts while bankrupting the country, so while you are paying less in taxes, you have less money overall.

Anyone who just votes based on proposed tax plans is really doing themselves a disservice.
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Post by XXXIV »

JackB1 wrote:
XXXIV wrote:
JackB1 wrote:
Unless you make over 227K, your taxes won't increase.
1)Is he or is he not going to let the present tax cut expire?...If so your taxes will go up.

2)Then we add our new taxes...but only those making over 227k...lets see...Who makes that much...small business owners maybe...could be? How does that help?

3) You actually believe that it will end there? 4) I see a problem with the math.

Anyone who just votes based on proposed tax plans is really doing themselves a disservice.
This we can agree on.
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Post by JackB1 »

RobVarak wrote: The lunatics shouting "Kill him!" at Palin rallies that Obama and the media have been hyperventilating about for the last week?

Didn't happen.

http://www.timesleader.com/news/breakin ... nded_.html
Agent Bill Slavoski said he was in the audience, along with an undisclosed number of additional secret service agents and other law enforcement officers and not one heard the comment.
I guess these investigators don't know how to use YouTube? I have seen videos of these rallies and you can hear it plain as day. I would post a link, but YouTube is blocked here at where I work. Just because these guys didn't hear anything doesn't mean it wasn't said. You know how loud it must be right around each person? How can they possibly confirm what was or was not yelled out by the audience?

Edit: This reporter must have heard it:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-tr ... _roug.html

I found this link, but can't see the video at work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVFWahLTdUo

I also found this article that sums up the situation:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/0 ... tml?page=7
Last edited by JackB1 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Slumberland »

JackDog wrote:Sometimes people need to get what they ask for. If he wins,let see how long he stays "The Messiah".
I think that whole Messiah thing, when used by people as a blanket condemnation of Obama supporters, is SO dismissive. If the dems have all three branches there is going to be inevitable overreaching and buffoonery, which could see blowback as soon as the '10 midterms. But it's understandable that people would want to repudiate eight years of big, reckless government by throwing the bums out, and instead take a gamble on someone that might at least do big government with a touch more responsibility. Obviously there are movementarians on both sides, and they wear blinders, and it's not for the best. But that messiah tag gets thrown around too cavalierly.

What'll be interesting is what kind of GOP is waiting on the other side of this. Will it be the one embodied by Bill Kristol, or something better and more authentic. With all the dust-up over Obama's "spread the wealth" comments, we were this close to having some sort of honest debate about whether money trickles up or trickles down, but then both candidates fell back on to tropes with accusations of class warfare and Obama attempting to hypnotize with the number 95.

It is unfortunate that candidates like Barr can't get a larger showcase for their ideas. I assume the libertarian party bears some responsibility for that, but it's also depressing how the MSM seems to de-legitimize candidates... Ron Paul was portrayed as sort of an amusing curiosity, but was saddled with the stink of guilt by assocation and subtle implications that his supporters were all stark raving loons.

I agree with Obama on a lot of issues, and I plan to vote for him, but I wouldn't be surprised if he wins and turns out to be a one-term president. I just hope that some old-school conservatism re-emerges on the other side of the aisle. McCain's got some streaks of it, but he's the wrong dude, and eight years too late, probably.
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Post by Brando70 »

This has turned into a replay of the 1996 election, with McCain as Bob Dole -- a dedicated, accomplished Senator who does not have a clue how to run a presidential campaign. I respect the man's accomplishments and integrity, but he has not figured out that voters outside of one's base do not like angry, irritated presidential candidates. Look at every election since Nixon i 1972 and you'll see that's the case. The guy who appears calmer and more collected wins. Experience doesn't matter -- Gore had a lot more than Bush Jr. and Bush Sr. had a lot more than Clinton.

There are three weeks left and anything can happen, but things don't look good for McCain right now. I don't think his performance did enough to change that last night.
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Post by GTHobbes »

pk500 wrote:Will your tax increase appear presidential, too?
I'm sickened by how much I pay in taxes already, especially after learning this week that 38% of the country doesn't pay a dime, and I sure as hell don't want to pay more, but like others have said, I don't want to base my vote on tax policy alone. And other than the abortion issue, I simply have no other basis to agree with the McCain/Palin ticket, so I guess I'll suck it up and pay even more taxes in doing what's best for the country, IMO.
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Post by GTHobbes »

JackB1 wrote:
macsomjrr wrote:
How about "acting healthy" and not looking like he is about to drop off the face of the Earth in the next four years leaving the hockey mom in charge of the WH. No thank you.

McCain has absolutely allowed the worst of him to be brought out in this election and I feel badly for him because of it. He makes snide comments, constantly rolls his eyes and looks away like a school girl being scolded for missing detention. It's unprofessional and oddly immature for a man his age. Obama looks aloof because he is an intelligent individual and unfortunately for the rest of us there are a lot of stupid people out there who are offended by those brighter than they are. Get over it. We need an intelligent, well-rounded, leader in the WH and Obama is the one to provide that leadership along with Biden. Look at what happened the last time we had an intelligent well educated figure in the WH, things were prosperous and life was good. The worst thing that happened involved a cigar and black dress. Now eight years later we look around and things are absolutely terrible. The deficit, a failing economy, a futile war, on and on... Is it all Bush? No. But I promise you he has contributed boatloads to the crappy position we find ourselves in as a country. It's time for change.
Very well said Mac. You summed it up perfectly.

There is a difference between acting aloof and cool and collected and just remaining calm. It is because you already know exactly how to handle what your opponent is saying and want to show that you aren't rattled easily.

Obama is 25 years younger than McCain, but it was McCain who appeared more immature and looked like a kid who just had his toys taken away. I think Obama will be a much better face of the USA to the rest of the world than McCain would have been and that is very important to me. After the face we have representing us the past 8 years, we need lots of damage control and someone who can help us gain back some respectability.
Good posts, guys...I wholeheartedly agree.
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Post by GTHobbes »

FatPitcher wrote: Then again, no one really liked you before, either, so knock yourself out.
That sucks to hear...but so long as my girlfriend and dogs still like me, I think I'll be okay.
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Post by Jackdog »

GTHobbes wrote:
FatPitcher wrote: Then again, no one really liked you before, either, so knock yourself out.
That sucks to hear...but so long as my girlfriend and dogs still like me, I think I'll be okay.
He got banned so don't pile on. Or is that baiting??
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Post by Teal »

JackDog wrote:
Jared wrote:
JackDog wrote:What is this? Calling everyone in this forum that doesn't agree with Obama stupid is cool?
I don't believe he was addressing anyone in the forums, but was claiming that there are some stupid people that are offended by those brighter than they are. Nowhere in this is he saying that all people who aren't voting for Obama are "offended by those brighter than they are", or were these comments directed at anyone on these forums.
That's cool. Just stopping bullshit before it starts. :wink:
I wholeheartedly disagree. You're not being evenhanded, Jared. You ban one, and explain another one away?! Whatever.
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Post by RobVarak »

Brando70 wrote:This has turned into a replay of the 1996 election, with McCain as Bob Dole -- a dedicated, accomplished Senator who does not have a clue how to run a presidential campaign. I respect the man's accomplishments and integrity, but he has not figured out that voters outside of one's base do not like angry, irritated presidential candidates. Look at every election since Nixon i 1972 and you'll see that's the case. The guy who appears calmer and more collected wins. Experience doesn't matter -- Gore had a lot more than Bush Jr. and Bush Sr. had a lot more than Clinton.
It is similar, but to me it smacks even more obviously of 1976. The electorate looks like it may elect a hitherto little known liberal despite being a generally center-right electorate. The reason they're doing so is a a backlash against a historically unpopular administration and they're ignoring the fact that the GOP candidate is not the President who is the real object of scorn.

McCain and Ford are both similar characters in that they're people who are widely respected but little loved, particularly by conservatives. And both McCain and Ford were hampered by indifferent speaking abilities and a tendency to dismiss their opponent.

Given this, I think Slumberland may be right. The disparity between the demographics and political culture of the nation on one hand and Obama's politics on the other, make it more likely than usual that he will be a one-termer. If he doesn't move the electorate to the left with him (which he could), then in four years he's going to be open to attacks on policies that are likely to be unpopular.

As for the debate last night, it was definitely more of the same. I think McCain again improved, and actually looked better than he has in either of the first two, but he still never really got Obama to flinch.

Anyone in McCain's camp who thinks that Town Halls are a better format than that one last night needs to have their head and eyesight checked. Seating the candidates takes away the height disparity and minimizes the awkwardness of McCain's gesticulation. Addressing the camera and moderator directly also saw a marked reduction in "my friends."

I think McCain was wise to invoke the plumber meeting, but unwise to hammer it to death so much. He was much better at making the case on taxes, but stunningly unprepared to properly defend his healthcare plan from the same attacks that Obama's been making since Day 1, and which have been demonstrated to be untrue. Poor miss.

The great line that Obama should've run in '04 if he wanted to run against Bush was two debates too late. But still great. His slip calling Obama "Senator Government" was a demonstration that sometimes people's Freudian slips are more incisive than their organized thoughts LOL

McCain was also solid when pointing out the difficulty of sorting through Obama's eloquence to actually get at what he's saying. I think from a pure debating standpoint, his pointing out that Obama only said they would "look into" offshore drilling was the most solidly struck of the night.

Obama was again the strongest on health care. He has a way of promising to fund every program under the sun without ever seeming to be a profligate spender, which is a political gift. He also deflected McCain's abortion attacks quite adeptly.

Obama was definitely presidential in the way that he looked into the camera and lied, particularly if Clinton is your standard of presidential.

He knew damn well that 100% of McCain's ads were not negative, but damned if he didn't look like he believed it. Same with his denial of being introduced to Illinois politics in Ayers' home.

He did not have caffeinated relations with that radical!

I would be far more inclined to say that the race was over if Obama didn't still have such a huge percentage of the electorate skeptical over his readiness to be President. In March 45% of Americans didn't think he was qualified, and here in October that number is still the same. That's the worst figure since Dukakis' 56% in '88. As I said earlier, this may be a Carter election, where people swallow their concerns and vote to penalize the GOP despite them. But that's still a figure that has to give a ray of hope to the McCain campaign.

Incidentally, I was horrified by something new in this debate. Obama's answer when asked about the qualifications for Federal judiciary appointments:
I think that it's important for judges to understand that if a woman is out there trying to raise a family, trying to support her family, and is being treated unfairly, then the court has to stand up, if nobody else will. And that's the kind of judge that I want.
Courts do not exist to "stand up" for anybody. That's the province of advocates like attorneys, legislators and other politicians. Justice must aspire to the blindness long attributed to her, and a judge who looks beyond the merits of the case and the rule of law ceases to be an arbiter and becomes something else entirely...and something incompatible with our legal system.

Just another glimpse inside the activist mind of the Senator from the great State of Government. :)
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