OT: Elections/Politics thread, part 4

[Jackdog]

You can include Wisconsin in that list. Only here, nothing is done about it other than to report that X number (growing by the day) of Acorn workers were caught turning in fake names.

And Connecticut, apparently

http://www.connpost.com/ci_10661361?source=most_viewed

Your latest "winner"...

Missouri

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_ ... oter_fraud

Michigan checks in.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... 8809140383

[Jackdog]

Fact Check on Last Night's Debate:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/ca ... act-check/

Talk about stretching the truth!

Just for starters, here are the facts on Obama's "94 times of voting to raise taxes":

–53 were votes on budget resolutions or amendments that "could not have resulted by themselves in raising taxes," though many "were clear statements of approval for increased taxes"
–23 were against proposed tax cuts
–11 were to increase taxes on people making more than $1 million a year, to help fund programs such as Head Start, school nutrition, or veterans' health care
–Seven were "for measures that would have lowered taxes for many, while raising them on a relative few, either corporations or affluent individuals."
– The total includes multiple votes on the same measures.

Annenberg says a close look at the record reveals that Obama has "voted consistently to restore higher tax rates on upper-income taxpayers but not on middle- or low-income workers."

Verdict:
Misleading. McCain's summary ignores the fact that some of the votes were for measures to lower taxes for many Americans, while increasing them for a much smaller number of taxpayers. A nonpartisan examination also finds that the 94 total includes multiple votes on the same measures and budget votes that would not directly lead to higher taxes.

Talk about telling the truth! I thought it was funny when Obama told the truth about how his running mate’s home state of Delaware panders to credit card companies and banks.

[Teal]

And Connecticut, apparently

http://www.connpost.com/ci_10661361?source=most_viewed

Your latest "winner"...

Missouri

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_ ... oter_fraud

Michigan checks in.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... 8809140383

This is ridiculous. Everyone voting should be required to provide identification on site, on the date of the damned election. If you aren't able to be there, oh well. ACORN (Community Organizations...that's rich) should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.(My guess is that they won't be ) No ID, no registration at least 90 days before the election, no vote.

[Teal]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10092008/ne ... 132771.htm

That last line (the excuse) is bullshit, I'd wager.

[matthewk]

Do we have the luxury of engaging in a debate about what the role of govt. should be or do we try to put out the fire?

We are on a sports gaming forum. I think we can afford to debate it here.

[matthewk]

It's the hands-off, asleep at the switch approach which arguably led to the current crisis.

I'll argue against that. The same people asking for my grandchildren's money are the ones who actively helped to get us into this mess. Forgive me if I have a bit of an issue trusting them now.

[matthewk]

We don't know how many bad ones exist. Without that knowledge we don't know if they got any past the system. While ACORN should face charges of fraud because this extends past a few local organizers being over-zealous.

It seems like they got caught, so while people are talking about voter fraud, they fail to understand the ACORN got caught. It's getting harder and harder for these types of tactics to exist. That doesn't mean the system is 100% accurate but the story fails to recognize that county clerks and state sec. of states caught it before the election

How many more exist? We might not know.

Why do you say "ACORN got caught", like it's all fixed now? They have been placing fake names into the system for months. 99% of those names are still out there. Here in Wisconsin the same person could use those names to vote 100 times for Obama. Yes, I said Obama, because we all know that he is in bed with them and the whole reason for all the fake names is to get him more votes. No matter who the candidate, it's fraud and needs to be stopped....hard.

In my state we have been screaming for a voter ID law for years. The Democratic governor keeps brushing it aside, probably becuase he knows that's a good part of why he still is our governor. With voter ID, most of what they are doing here goes away. ANYONE can get a FREE ID today in our state. If you don't have a drivers license, then you can get a FREE one.

This is openly criminal behavior, and yet it's treated the same as if some 5 year old got caught stealing a candy bar from a store.

[RobVarak]

The most assinine political battlefront in recent decades has been the GOP opposition to easy voter registration coupled with the Democrats opposition to sensible Voter ID laws. It's the most craven admission of the weaknesses of the respective parties and does a disservice to the Republic.

[wco81]

This is openly criminal behavior, and yet it's treated the same as if some 5 year old got caught stealing a candy bar from a store.

Oh really?

Then why isn't the state or local or federal prosecutors going after these cases? After all, many of them are under Republican administrations.

Of course the Bush administration tried to get US Attorneys in various jurisdictions to pursue these cases and then fired a whole bunch of them for not prosecuting alleged fraud.

David Yglesias, the US Attorney for New Mexico, said he looked into those cases in his district. The only fraud was a worker who was paid by the number of registrations. No evidence that there was an orchestrated effort to produce false registrations on the part of ACORN. At best, according to Iglesias, it would have been a misdemeanor.

The attorneys fired were in jurisdictions where Republican candidates had lost narrowly. Bush lost in NM by 400 votes. Or in Western WA, where there was a 3-week recount for governor.

Are you really concerned about the integrity of the voting process or only that organizations which registers lower-income voters, who are likely to vote Democrat, be held to close scrutiny?

If the former, then lets hear about Diebold, caging, voter challenges by GOP operatives and other voter suppression activities by Republicans which have been documented.

[matthewk]

This is openly criminal behavior, and yet it's treated the same as if some 5 year old got caught stealing a candy bar from a store.

Oh really?

Are you really concerned about the integrity of the voting process or only that organizations which registers lower-income voters, who are likely to vote Democrat, be held to close scrutiny?

Yes really. I live in state where fraud happens every election. I read and hear about it locally quite often.

I only want to ensure that the poor are kept from voting for Obama. If they were to guarantee that they would vote McCain, then I would have no problem with them voting 100 times.

Ask a stupid question...

[wco81]

Only 100 times?

So where are the prosecutions then?

[wco81]

double post

[Teal]

What the hell? Did you think your post was so brilliant you had to put it up twice within 20 minutes?

[RobVarak]

If the former, then lets hear about Diebold, caging, voter challenges by GOP operatives and other voter suppression activities by Republicans which have been documented.

There's a chicken-and-egg cycle to this.

Based on the elections of the last several years, there is no reasonable argument that ACORN and like-minded groups are not engaging in widespread fraud. The Republicans attempt to counter this by litigation, challenges etc., that the Democrats then call "suppression."

Or if you prefer, the Republicans try to suppress the votes and ACORN et al respond with fraud in an attempt to counteract the votes lost to challenges by flooding the system with provisional ballots etc.

Either way, as I said, this is an outgrowth of failed policy and lack of political courage on both sides.

Incidentally, it's specious to cast aspersions on Matt's position that the behavior is inappropriate because you don't agree with his politics. His indignation, whatever it's source, is appropriate...unless you believe that the illegal behavior is acceptable.

And there have been many prosecutions. Most recenty in Washington, as I recall. And many of the prosecutions are terminated when ACORN essentially pleads out by paying fines or restitution.

[XXXIV]

What the hell? Did you think your post was so brilliant you had to put it up twice within 20 minutes?

They are all brilliant!

[Jackdog]

What the hell? Did you think your post was so brilliant you had to put it up twice within 20 minutes?

They are all brilliant!

Yes they are!!! I find them helpful when I haven't had enough fiber.

[matthewk]

So where are the prosecutions then?

I'll answer that the same way you respond to posts...

If Bush is such a criminal, then why hasn't he been convicted of anything? Where are the prosecutions?

[Brando70]

I agree that there should be some type of voter ID. Voter fraud undermines our electoral process. I also think the IDs could help with people "mistakenly" being placed on barred voting rolls, like what happened in Florida in 2000.

[Teal]

What the hell? Did you think your post was so brilliant you had to put it up twice within 20 minutes?

They are all brilliant!

Yes they are!!! I find them helpful when I haven't had enough fiber.

[JackB1]

I just heard on CBS evening news that both Obama and McCain's spending plans will increase our national deficit by over $200 Billion each, so you can throw out that argument. Granted, McCain's total was slightly lower than Obama's, but not enough to influence your vote.

The polls continue to go in the direction of Obama, so McCain didn't accomplish anything in the 2nd debate and will need a real game changer in the last debate to make a dent in Obama's lead. I really think the McCain campaign is making a mistake by focusing on slinging mud at Obama. Focus on telling the people what you can do to get us out of this economic crisis and not on who Obama's "pals" are.

Another note, is that this plan of buying back mortgages that McCain states is "My plan...not Obama's" was part of the recent Bailout Plan package and was also suggested by Obama 2 weeks ago. The Bailout bill had a provision that gave the gov't the authority to step in and buy mortgages. This is McCain's great new "brainstorm"?

[Teal]

I just heard on CBS evening news that both Obama and McCain's spending plans will increase our national deficit by over $200 Billion each, so you can throw out that argument. Granted, McCain's total was slightly lower than Obama's, but not enough to influence your vote.

The polls continue to go in the direction of Obama, so McCain didn't accomplish anything in the 2nd debate and will need a real game changer in the last debate to make a dent in Obama's lead. I really think the McCain campaign is making a mistake by focusing on slinging mud at Obama. Focus on telling the people what you can do to get us out of this economic crisis and not on who Obama's "pals" are.

Another note, is that this plan of buying back mortgages that McCain states is "My plan...not Obama's" was part of the recent Bailout Plan package and was also suggested by Obama 2 weeks ago. The Bailout bill had a provision that gave the gov't the authority to step in and buy mortgages.

Ah, the gospel according to CBS news-well, I'll just have to change my stances, 'cuz CBS said so!

Jack, do you have a source to cite for that last sentence? Believe me, I'd be happy to give the turd to Obama, but where did you hear that it is in the Bailout bill?

[matthewk]

The polls continue to go in the direction of Obama, so McCain didn't accomplish anything in the 2nd debate and will need a real game changer in the last debate to make a dent in Obama's lead. I really think the McCain campaign is making a mistake by focusing on slinging mud at Obama. Focus on telling the people what you can do to get us out of this economic crisis and not on who Obama's "pals" are.

I'm not sure how you can be watching the evening news at noon, but whatever.

The polls statement is funny. I just came from cnn.com where there poll has the racce tightening up. Between Oct. 1 and Oct. 7 Obama led, 49% to 43%. On Oct. 8th is was at 48% to 44%.

If he wants to close the gap more, he needs to keep slinging mud. Add up all of Obama's "Pals" (which includes ACORN as well), and you have a person whose judgement and ability to lead are in great question.

[wco81]

And there have been many prosecutions. Most recenty in Washington, as I recall. And many of the prosecutions are terminated when ACORN essentially pleads out by paying fines or restitution.

Again, if there was evidence that the organization was directing their field workers to falsify registrations, there would be more serious penalties than fines.

Certainly after the Bush admin. replaced the US Attorneys who wouldn't play ball with state and local GOP operatives, the Bush Justice Dept. could have pursued these allegations. After all, they've been trying to prod the US Attorneys to go after "voter fraud" since 2002.

Oh but the independent counsel investigation into the firings might tend to put a crimp on those plans.

You can be outraged at these anecdotes of falsified forms by ACORN workers here and there. But that rage rings hollow if there isn't equal outrage expressed at voter suppression efforts, like fliers put up in PA colleges made to look like they were from the Obama campaign instructing new voters that they must clear any traffic violations before they're allowed to vote.

These voter fraud stories are also seen as attempts to scare off voters, with claims that if the forms aren't filled out correctly (in some states, the claim is they must match what is in the DMV database, so if you put "Dave" in the form but the DMV has "David" you've falsified your registration), you could face prosecution or fines.

But you could also see these stories as predicate for attempts to delegitimize close votes in some jurisdictions.

[Naples39]

You can be outraged at these anecdotes of falsified forms by ACORN workers here and there. But that rage rings hollow if there isn't equal outrage expressed at voter suppression efforts, like fliers put up in PA colleges made to look like they were from the Obama campaign instructing new voters that they must clear any traffic violations before they're allowed to vote.

I haven't heard that story, but isn't there a HUGE difference between random acts of vandalism and deception by a small group of unknown individuals, and systematic behavior of fraud in a nationwide organization that has close ties to a party??

Similar goals, but operating on a completely different level.

[RobVarak]

You can be outraged at these anecdotes of falsified forms by ACORN workers here and there.

LMFAO Ah yes, these "anecdotes" of fraud "here and there." No reason for outrage at that. Nothing to see here, move along...

But that rage rings hollow if there isn't equal outrage expressed at voter suppression efforts,

I think I was pretty clear about my issues with dirty tricks on both sides of the aisle. ACORN is in a league by itself in many ways, though. No other group on either side is so systematically and blatantly dirty.

You can't just look at criminal prosecutions as the measure of their misdeeds either. In most cases authorities just take the most expedient measure of tossing out the fraudulent registrations, which of course just emboldens suppression efforts. Perversely, in this regard ACORN's corruption serves to energize and empower their political opposition.

Moreover, ACORN's decentralized structure and reliance on "community organizers" makes successful prosecution expensive and difficult. I worked for awhile for the gentleman who is the Chairman of the Chicago Board of Elections, which gave me a front-row seat for the follies that surround every election. Officials are totally overwhelmed and much more concerned with keeping the voting rolls clean and custody of the ballots than they are with prosecution and penalties.

Then why isn't the state or local or federal prosecutors going after these cases? After all, many of them are under Republican administrations

A short summary of ACORN's illustrious history from Wikipedia. Cites are available at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associatio ... Reform_Now

In Ohio in 2004, four ACORN employees were indicted by a federal grand jury for submitting false voter registration forms.[23][24]

In January 2005 two Colorado ACORN workers were sentenced to community service for submitting false voter registrations.[25] ACORN's regional director said, "we find it abhorrent and do everything we can to prevent it from happening."[26]

On November 1, 2006, four part-time ACORN employees were indicted in Kansas City, Missouri for voter registration fraud. Prosecutors said the indictments are part of a national investigation.[27] ACORN said in a press release that it is in part responsible in these individuals being caught, has fired them, and has cooperated and publicly supported efforts to look into the validity of the allegations.[28]

ACORN was investigated in 2006 for submitting false voter registrations in St. Louis, Missouri. 1,492 fraudulent voter registrations were identified.[29][30]

In 2007, five Washington state ACORN workers were sentenced to jail time.[31] ACORN agreed to pay King County $25 000 for its investigative costs and acknowledged that the national organization could be subject to criminal prosecution if fraud occurs again. According to King County Prosecuting Attorney Dan Satterberg, the misconduct was done "as an easy way to get paid [by ACORN], not as an attempt to influence the outcome of elections."[32][33]

In 2008, the Michigan Secretary of State office told the Detroit Free Press that ACORN had been submitting a sizeable number of duplicate and fraudulent applications to vote.[34]

State authorities in Nevada raided ACORN's offices in Las Vegas in 2008, alleging that its canvassers produced forms with false names, fictional addresses, or famous personalities. Neither ACORN nor any employees, however, have been charged with fraud or other crimes.[35][36]

October 8, 2008, Missouri officials announced an investigation into alleged voter fraud concerning some ACORN registered names. Some names were listed multiple times, had fake/missing addresses, no drivers licenses, bad social security numbers, etc. [37]

As of October 9, 2008 the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections has subpoenaed several individuals as part of a larger investigation into possible voter fraud by ACORN in Ohio.[38]

Edit--

Far be it for anyone to be racist enough to question Obama's judgment, but he worked very closely with ACORN in his "organizer" days, including training them.

This all happened when he was in his 30's though. Ancient history that has nothing to do with the pain being felt by the middle class right now...