OT: Elections/Politics thread, part 4

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Post by greggsand »

pk500 wrote:
webdanzer wrote:
JackB1 wrote: In these debates, viewers want depth in their answers and real talk...
I disagree. I think most viewers (and I expect a lot of them for tonight) are going to come looking for a car crash. Or some good one-liners.

EDIT: Heh, I saw this immediately after I posted:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26978473/?GT1=43001
I think most male viewers of tonight's debate would like to see Palin open a button or two atop her blouse or blazer ...

Guilty as charged. :)

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PK
Agreed. They're already casting for a line of Palin-look-a-like porn...

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... 48,00.html
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Post by RobVarak »

Jared wrote:she criticizes Biden for saying that some of his conservative scholar friends argue that there is no inherent right to privacy in the Constitution. Her retort is, well, Alito and Roberts affirm it; therefore Biden is either deliberately lying or an idiot. That would work if a) Alito and Roberts were the only conservative scholars (they're not, see Scalia) or b) this was a position that no one takes (umm, no. Both are completely and totally untrue. (How could she be a law professor with logical reasoning skills like this?)
Her reasoning is sound. Biden didn't say "some" of my conservative scholar friends. It's a straw man argument phrased in a manner which makes it sound like all conservatives are united on the topic when the reality is that many prominent scholars and the last two conservative Supreme Court Justices agree with Biden's position. Couric let it slide by without the slightest challenge, which is the principle point that Althouse is making. Every point that he made was swallowed whole my the interviewer.

His gibberish about "federalizing a private crime" is what really raises the questions about who should be teaching a law school class. As does the idea about the value of Roe as "consensus."

What is unassailable is the point that Couric sits back and lets Biden appear like a scholar when in reality he's talking out of his ass. But hey, he's been the senator from MBNA for 20 years, he doesn't stumble or look nervous, so he must know what he's talking about and he's obviously qualified.

This is the media's worldview on the campaign in a nutshell. "Obama is so obviously well-spoken and unflappable that he must be smarter than these caveman Republicans we've been dealing with. Those people in Kansas don't understand the difference between capital gains tax, corporate taxes or income taxes anyway, why should I bother asking a bunch of questions that they won't understand the answers to anyway?"

Never mind the words on the page as long as the book is nicely bound leather with gold filigree on the cover and a title that we all agree is Correct.

"I'm sure it'll be just like when Clinton was President. Obama is a 'transformative candidate,' not one of those old fashioned liberals. And won't it be grand when the Europeans like us again so that I don't have to tell people that I'm Canadian when I'm vacationing in Paris." :)
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Post by Teal »

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Post by Teal »

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Post by Feanor »

Conservative blog crying foul about McCain's slide in the polls. Not even worth clicking on.
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Post by Teal »

Feanor wrote:
Conservative blog crying foul about McCain's slide in the polls. Not even worth clicking on.
Wow. I'm so surprised. :roll:
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Post by Feanor »

I'm not surprised at any of the Rush Limbaugh-level talking points you post on this thread, or even that you live in the least socialist country on Earth but have a sig warning about the dangers of socialism in America. :lol:
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Post by Jackdog »

Feanor wrote:I'm not surprised at any of the Rush Limbaugh-level talking points you post on this thread, or even that you live in the least socialist country on Earth but have a sig warning about the dangers of socialism in America. :lol:
This is the kind of sh!t that's going to push us to DEFCON 5. :wink:
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Post by JRod »

Feanor wrote:I'm not surprised at any of the Rush Limbaugh-level talking points you post on this thread, or even that you live in the least socialist country on Earth but have a sig warning about the dangers of socialism in America. :lol:
Warning Def Con Cantelope. :D Though Teal didn't need to take a pot shot.
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Post by FatPitcher »

Feanor wrote:
Conservative blog crying foul about McCain's slide in the polls. Not even worth clicking on.
Feanor wrote:
Teal wrote:
riiiiiight. There's something really funny about a link that has in it the words 'rollingstone/news/story'. As if...
Of course every primary source used in the article is invalid, too.
It's like fish in a barrel here.
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Post by Jared »

RobVarak wrote:Her reasoning is sound. Biden didn't say "some" of my conservative scholar friends. It's a straw man argument phrased in a manner which makes it sound like all conservatives are united on the topic...
Biden:
Now that's one of the big debates that I have with my conservative scholar friends
I really have no idea how anyone can read this as Biden saying "all conservatives" hold this position, or are united on the topic. For example, let's say you're talking about people who are against the war in Afghanistan, and you say "Now that's one of the big debates that I have with my liberal friends...". Does that mean that all liberals are against the war in Afghanistan? No. It means that all of the people who hold that position that you know are liberal. Maybe I should have restated my statement as "How could she be a law professor with reading comprehension skills like this?"
His gibberish about "federalizing a private crime" is what really raises the questions about who should be teaching a law school class.
From a law prof in the comments section:
Here's what Biden said:

"Women who are abused and beaten and beaten are women who are not able to be in the work force. And the Supreme Court said, 'Well, there is an impact on commerce, but this is federalizing a private crime and we're not going to allow it.' I think the Supreme Court was wrong about that decision."

You are mischaracterizing both Biden's statement and the Morrison decision when you say that the civil rights remedy in the VAWA only "federalized a tort" rather than "federalizing a crime" as Biden said.

Biden did not say that the VAWA created a federal criminal offense; he said that what the VAWA federalized was state crime. And that's absolutely correct. Indeed, Congress based the federal civil rights remedy in the VAWA on an explicit finding of gender disparity in the state-court enforcement of crimes of violence.

So the follow-up you fault Couric for not doing would have been mistaken: while it is true that VAWA created a federal tort, Biden was absolutely right in saying that what VAWA federalized (through a tort action) was state crime. Stated differently, the civil rights remedy in the VAWA took conduct that was criminal (and tortious) under state law and made it a federal tort.
And all these contortions of language and logic to deflect the fact that Palin, when asked, couldn't name a single Supreme Court decision that she disagreed with. But then again, being that she's the most experienced and qualified person in the whole field, I'm sure there's a good reason for her to have fumbled the question.

Funny, this reminds me a little of when Bush was asked who the leader of Pakistan was before the 2000 election, and he didn't know it. Immediately, conservatives accused the asker of engaging in "gotcha journalism". Because really, how important would it be to know anything about the leader of Pakistan? It's just trivia!

(It would be sad if it weren't true...)
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Post by Feanor »

FatPitcher wrote:
Feanor wrote:
Teal wrote:
riiiiiight. There's something really funny about a link that has in it the words 'rollingstone/news/story'. As if...
Of course every primary source used in the article is invalid, too.
It's like fish in a barrel here.
And yet you can't kill a single one. At any rate, the obvious point stands that Democrats trying to get eligible people to vote is much less shameful than concerted Republican efforts to stop eligible people from voting that went on last election and are probably going on again right now.
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Post by FatPitcher »

Feanor wrote:
FatPitcher wrote:
Feanor wrote: Of course every primary source used in the article is invalid, too.
It's like fish in a barrel here.
And yet you can't kill a single one.
They're like Bruce Willis in Sixth Sense.
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Post by Jared »

We're now back up to DEFCON 3, and I'll be getting closer to DEFCON 2 if things keep up. A few notes:

1) If you disagree with something, it's lazy to attack the source as "partisan", and it's probably why so many people hold on to so many stupid views w/o thinking. Oh, the NYT/WSJ is partisan, so I'm just going to only read WorldNetDaily/Counterpunch to get the "real deal". Address the argument, not the source/poster.

2) Witty retorts don't mean jack unless you've got evidence to back it up. Nothing makes my desire to lock threads greater than seeing five thousand self-embedded quotes that in total, amount to squadoosh. I'm the moderator here, I want people to be civil, and that kind of "discussion" does nothing to keep things that way. If you don't like it, too bad.
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Post by RobVarak »

Jared wrote:
His gibberish about "federalizing a private crime" is what really raises the questions about who should be teaching a law school class.
From a law prof in the comments section:
Here's what Biden said:

"Women who are abused and beaten and beaten are women who are not able to be in the work force. And the Supreme Court said, 'Well, there is an impact on commerce, but this is federalizing a private crime and we're not going to allow it.' I think the Supreme Court was wrong about that decision."

You are mischaracterizing both Biden's statement and the Morrison decision when you say that the civil rights remedy in the VAWA only "federalized a tort" rather than "federalizing a crime" as Biden said.

Biden did not say that the VAWA created a federal criminal offense; he said that what the VAWA federalized was state crime. And that's absolutely correct. Indeed, Congress based the federal civil rights remedy in the VAWA on an explicit finding of gender disparity in the state-court enforcement of crimes of violence.

So the follow-up you fault Couric for not doing would have been mistaken: while it is true that VAWA created a federal tort, Biden was absolutely right in saying that what VAWA federalized (through a tort action) was state crime. Stated differently, the civil rights remedy in the VAWA took conduct that was criminal (and tortious) under state law and made it a federal tort.
First of all, the power of his gaffe on this point stems not from the fact that he remains proud of an attempt to shoehorn additional causes of action through the Commerce Clause, but rather the fact that the phrase "federalizing a private crime" is a legal non sequitor. This may be inside baseball, but that phrase is just off the wall in this particular discussion.

With respect to Muller's analysis, it's non-responsive to the extent that there is no such thing as a "private crime." As a result, he's criticizing Althouse on grounds totally unrelated to Biden's mistakes.

Couric really should have followed up on two different fronts to clear through this folderol. She should have asked, as Althouse contends, about what limits he sees on Congressional regulation via the Commerce Clause, and she should have asked him why women don't have adequate remedies in the State courts.
Jared wrote:And all these contortions of language and logic to deflect the fact that Palin, when asked, couldn't name a single Supreme Court decision that she disagreed with. But then again, being that she's the most experienced and qualified person in the whole field, I'm sure there's a good reason for her to have fumbled the question.
Given that Palin never collected a paycheck for law school lecturing, I think it's self-evident that she needn't be held to the same standard as Biden when it comes to Constitutional law. Moreover, nobody "deflected" anything with this discussion of Biden's obfuscations and gasbaggery, particularly because the author wrote, and I linked to, a completely separate dicussion of the Palin interview.

Jared, I saw the interview long before I read her analysis. And it struck me as bizarre and inaccurate for him to say that the right of privacy is a topic about which he disagrees with his conservative friends. It's not like he couldn't have picked from a panoply of legitimate areas of disagreement, but he went for the short political jab and scare tactic No. 2. (No. 1 being, incidentally, scare old people about Social Security).
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Post by FatPitcher »

Jared wrote:
I really have no idea how anyone can read this as Biden saying "all conservatives" hold this position, or are united on the topic.
What is the point of saying what he said unless he wants to cast the conservative position in general as holding no right to privacy? In other words, why would he even mention a few random friends, except to hold them up as an example of a widespread view that he's running against? Parsing words literally like that makes you miss what is readily apparent to a good listener/reader.
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Post by FatPitcher »

Feanor wrote:
FatPitcher wrote:
Feanor wrote: Of course every primary source used in the article is invalid, too.
It's like fish in a barrel here.
And yet you can't kill a single one. At any rate, the obvious point stands that Democrats trying to get eligible people to vote is much less shameful than concerted Republican efforts to stop eligible people from voting that went on last election and are probably going on again right now.
Oh, that's rich.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nati ... ction.html
http://www.kmbc.com/politics/10214492/detail.html
http://www.epionline.org/news_detail.cfm?rid=171

There's plenty more if you want to search: Democrats calling voters to tell them the wrong time and place for voting (had to be stopped by a court order), prominent Democrats in East St. Louis literally buying votes (for which they were convicted), "impromptu" Kerry rallies held at voting locations, etc.

I mean, Democrats pretty much wrote the book on voter fraud. 1960 Illinois ring a bell?

Ha! I almost forgot one of the classiest: trying to get ballots from the armed forces disqualified in 2000 because of postmark dates. They eventually backed down when their efforts made their way into the papers, though.
Last edited by FatPitcher on Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by FatPitcher »

un-double-posted. for some reason my mouse has been performing phantom double-clicks lately.
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Post by Macca00 »

I am so hot for Sarah Palin.

Macca
(watching the Canadian Federal Election debate - where there are FIVE parties in the debate but no one nearly as hot as SP, I wish I had picture-in-picture.....)
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Post by Feanor »

For every link you post I can easily find two more showing similar examples of voter fraud by Republican operatives. But to save some time, I'll just link to the most hilarious example of the lengths Republicans operatives went to in the last election:

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/1 ... ote05.html

From the article I linked to earlier:
The most transparently crooked incident took place in Warren County. In the leadup to the election, Blackwell had illegally sought to keep reporters and election observers at least 100 feet away from the polls. The Sixth Circuit, ruling that the decree represented an unconstitutional violation of the First Amendment, noted ominously that ''democracies die behind closed doors.'' But the decision didn't stop officials in Warren County from devising a way to count the vote in secret. Immediately after the polls closed on Election Day, GOP officials -- citing the FBI -- declared that the county was facing a terrorist threat that ranked ten on a scale of one to ten. The county administration building was hastily locked down, allowing election officials to tabulate the results without any reporters present.

In fact, there was no terrorist threat. The FBI declared that it had issued no such warning, and an investigation by The Cincinnati Enquirer unearthed e-mails showing that the Republican plan to declare a terrorist alert had been in the works for eight days prior to the election. Officials had even refined the plot down to the language they used on signs notifying the public of a lockdown. (When ROLLING STONE requested copies of the same e-mails from the county, officials responded that the documents have been destroyed.)
Blackwell is Kenneth Blackwell, the then co-chair of Bush's re-election committee and Ohio's Sec. of Sate.
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Post by dougb »

Macca00 wrote:I am so hot for Sarah Palin.

Macca
(watching the Canadian Federal Election debate - where there are FIVE parties in the debate but no one nearly as hot as SP, I wish I had picture-in-picture.....)
What, you mean you don't find Elizabeth May hot? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Best wishes,

Doug
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Post by RobVarak »

So far Biden's accused McCain of giving a $4billion or a $400billion tax cut to Exxon. Eh, what's a few hundred billion between friends LOL
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Post by RobVarak »

Macca00 wrote:I am so hot for Sarah Palin.

Macca
(watching the Canadian Federal Election debate - where there are FIVE parties in the debate but no one nearly as hot as SP, I wish I had picture-in-picture.....)
You just like her because she sounds a bit Canadian. :)
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Post by dougb »

RobVarak wrote:So far Biden's accused McCain of giving a $4billion or a $400billion tax cut to Exxon. Eh, what's a few hundred billion between friends LOL
Maybe he had former Enron accountants figuring the tab - you know, a few assumptions here, and few there, voila. And then he went and got the 2 figures confused anyway.

The Canadian debate is like a 4 on 1 gangbang...

Best wishes,

Doug
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Post by Feanor »

Do they hold the Canadian election a little earlier like with Thanksgiving?
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