OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 2

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:04 am

JRod wrote:Kudos to PBS convention coverage. I was flipping and I heard Charlie Gibson talking about balloons. Come on!

I tuned in right after his speech was over. CNN kept making references to the balloons and how "McCain loves his confettii" or something like that. It was like they just couldn't help themselves and had to finrd something....anything to try and make fun of.

FatPitcher · Post by **FatPitcher** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:10 am

JackDog wrote:
PS....How did the Bill O'Rielly/Obama interview go?

Obama rolled.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:12 am

RobVarak wrote:You can call him a hypocrite or a sell-out or whatever you want. But how many Presidential nominees say something like that in their acceptance speech 2 days after having a Senator speak on his behalf who just 2 elections ago was the VP nominee on the other party's ticket?

He's not typical.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/elec ... sh-Hug.htm

Post by **Jared** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:12 am

Teal wrote:
JRod wrote:

And by McCain giving a "throw the bums out speech", that set-ups a strange dynamic for him and his campaign. It was the party's own "bums" that set-up this need for change in Washington. I know the party wants to blame Congressional Democrats for the problems but that's a weak argument because they were only in power for a few years. Prior to this, I didn't hear McCain say he wanted to get rid of Bush/Cheney.

I don't disagree with it but it was very strange to here considering that the majority of today's problems were caused from a Republican Congress but mostly the Bush Administration.

It's not his party that led to Congress having the lowest approval numbers in the history of the country. Harry Reid and Pelosi have done wonders in that arena.

Look at the trends here, especially the time from 2001-2006 (excluding the 9/11 bump), with a Republican congress. I'm not sure you want to be putting a lot of blame on the Democratic congress for it being unpopular...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/108010/Bush- ... roval.aspx

Now looking at the drop from 2007-2008, a big part of that is from Democrats. In that poll in 2007, 32% of Democrats approved of Congress...in 2008, it dropped to 23%. Congress actually got a good bump in approval when Democrats took control...it dropped even more when it was clear they weren't getting some Democratic legislation passed effectively. My guess is approval goes up a lot if Obama gets elected.

Post by **Jared** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:15 am

Also, I don't want any personal attacks in this thread, period. None of this "people like you" crap. Points can be made without stuff like this. This is a warning to all.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:18 am

JRod wrote:The republicans weren't spineless. Hell I would say they were the toughest political group we've seen in a very long time. Rove, Cheney, Delay, and Frist neutered the Democratic Party. Delay singlehandedly gerrymandered huge swathes of the congressional map to solidify republican seats and make more competitive.

He did say Republican congress, and neither Rove nor Cheney were congressmen.

The rest of your comments I'm just going to leave be or I'll get banned for sure.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:22 am

I'd like to nominate Brando's post with the slumping Asian hermaphrodite as the finest post in this thread.

Post by **Jared** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:24 am

RobVarak wrote:I'd like to nominate Brando's post with the slumping Asian hermaphrodite as the finest post in this thread.

Slumping Tiger, Hidden Dragon

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:33 am

Jared wrote:
RobVarak wrote:I'd like to nominate Brando's post with the slumping Asian hermaphrodite as the finest post in this thread.
Slumping Tiger, Hidden Dragon

....sweeeet....

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:42 am

RobVarak wrote:I'd like to nominate Brando's post with the slumping Asian hermaphrodite as the finest post in this thread.

I believe, after watching Stephen Colbert interview the athiest lobby last week, they prefer the term "intersexuals."

http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertrep ... oId=180127

Well worth watching that if you haven't seen it. And I have substituted said intersexual with a link to Candidate Maverick hugging He Who Shall Not Be Named in My Acceptance Speech.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:44 am

So apparently some of the NetRoots winners are claiming that the Code Pink hippies were mishandled at the convention last night.

1. This is supposed to have been a bad thing? Seriously, they were causing a public disturbance and not leaving when asked by the authorities. That's beating time.

2. As far as I could see they weren't mishandled enough. Then again I am from Chicago. Anything that doesn't involve a nightstick or a lit cigarette pretty much falls into the "massage" category.

No smiley, as I'm only half kidding.

And I would advocate the same handling of the Right wingers disrupting speeches at the Democratic convention...except of course that there were none.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:53 am

McCain delivered an excellent speech. A bit long, but very direct, very point-by-point. A clear constrast to the abstract, biblical imagery that Obama likes to conjure in his oratory, even though his convention speech was his most direct.

McCain's salute to the Obama campaign was a necessary touch of class, as the entire list of GOP convention speakers before McCain -- including Palin -- resembled barking dogs with raw necks from stretching their leashes too far. There was far too little class shown by the GOP at this convention. Plenty of Wal-Mart patriotism -- can we save the chants of "USA, USA" for the Olympics, please? -- but not enough tact.

But speaking of tact, the protesters did themselves and their presumed party no favors. I doubt the DNC sent those classless a-holes to St. Paul, but there is guilt by association. Save it for outside of the hall, please.

I think McCain did a fine job telling the American public that he's not a crotchety, angry old man. I thought his most powerful sentence of the night was, "I hate war."

That was a clear line drawn between he and Bush, who seems to revel in all the trappings of war, including wearing a jump suit on a carrier deck, because he never fought in one. It was important for McCain to make that distinction, to tell the American public that even though he feels strongly about a U.S. presence in Iraq, he does not like war.

It also was very refreshing to hear McCain castigate his own party. It was necessary because the GOP has lost its way so badly the last eight years, and I think a ton of those stuffed shirts on the floor thought nothing was wrong with their party.

Finally, McCain sounded a hell of a lot like a Libertarian up there. That resonated with me. Now, do I trust that he can put those promises into reality? That's the X factor for me right now.

I'm really torn in this election.

I don't think the Republican Party reflects the direction and cultures of America at all. Just look at the ethnic makeup of its delegates in TV pictures. It's white, conservative, middle America. That may be closer to where I stand in the political spectrum, but I know that doesn't represent the entire cross-section of the country like the Democrats do.

I think the Dems could be better for all groups around the country; I think the Reps could be better for me. So do I put the country first or myself first? Do I care about a rising tide lifting all boats, including mine, or do I only care about my boat and to hell with the rest of the harbor that doesn't look or think like me?

Finally, I think I trust McCain. He's 72 years old. He's been through hell. I don't think he's at the point of his life where he's in this for him. I believe him when he says that.

I don't yet believe Barack Obama when he says that this election isn't about him, it's about us. I still think he feels that his ascendancy to the Oval Office is part of a manifest destiny for him, and that makes me very uncomfortable.

Funny, I like the candidate of the party I don't really trust. I don't like the candidate of the party that I think I trust.

Or maybe I'll just vote Libertarian again. Who knows?

Still, there's something to like in both the Dems and the Reps and their candidates, something that hasn't happened to me since I first was eligible to vote for president in 1984.

Damn good thing we have two months to go for me to figure this out.

Take care,
PK

SPTO · Post by **SPTO** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:57 am

As far as I can tell those protesters were handled the way they should've been so i'm not crying any tears.

Anyways i'm going to be really interested to see how big of a convention bump McCain gets. If the bump puts him neck and neck with Obama then it's going to be a very interesting race and one that could be a lot tighter then the pundits think.

One thing about McCain's speech, the man looked and sounded 10-15 years younger when he was giving it. He truly was fired up and i'm happy for the man even if i'm more leaning toward Obama.

SPTO · Post by **SPTO** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:08 am

PK that was excellent analysis. I also believe McCain when he says it's not about him. I saw the tail end of a Charlie Gibson interview with him before the convention last night and McCain was so humble and seemed to be so much at peace with himself. McCain knows it's going to be a fight but as he said during his speech all the good in his life has always come with a fight.

The main question I have though, if McCain is elected will he be pushed around by the party operatives? I mean look what happened with the Palin pick. Rightly or wrongly it looked like McCain was pushed into putting her on the ticket over those he felt most comfortable with. If he can be pressured there who knows if he can hold them off when it comes to domestic and foreign policy as president.

It's very interesting.

I agree with what you said contrasting Obama and McCain. The McCain campaign would be wise to ease off on the experience debate but contrast the men the way McCain did. I mean McCain is at an age where sure it'd be a huge personal achievement to be elected president but it isn't some manifest destiny like it seems to be with Obama. If they can paint Obama as a guy with a bit of an ego who thinks the Oval office is his by right then it could resonate with voters, especially swing voters.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:09 am

SPTO wrote:
Anyways i'm going to be really interested to see how big of a convention bump McCain gets. If the bump puts him neck and neck with Obama then it's going to be a very interesting race and one that could be a lot tighter then the pundits think.

One thing about McCain's speech, the man looked and sounded 10-15 years younger when he was giving it. He truly was fired up and i'm happy for the man even if i'm more leaning toward Obama.

I think the bump may take him even with or even slightly ahead of Obama in the nationwide numbers, but that's likely to fade back to seeming parity over the next couple...and it's not terribly useful as a metric. Watch RCP or FiveThirtyEight or some site that tracks the state by state numbers. Obama's electoral position has remained stronger than his overall numbers throughout. That's where McCain has to move the needle if he wants to have a chance.

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:12 am

pk500 wrote:Finally, McCain sounded a hell of a lot like a Libertarian up there. That resonated with me. Now, do I trust that he can put those promises into reality? That's the X factor for me right now.

Yes... very interesting stuff for him. But I'm constantly flummoxed by the GOP these days. Are they a party of limited government, or an army in a culture war? They can speak to the former at opportune moments, but seem much more focused on the latter in general.

pk500 wrote:Finally, I think I trust McCain. He's 72 years old. He's been through hell. I don't think he's at the point of his life where he's in this for him. I believe him when he says that.

Yeah, this I don't know about. Would love to believe him, but he's been around a long time, was involved in the Keating Five stuff, etc. Whether or not he believes he can take the GOP back to basics, I got the slight vibe of an abusive husband being like "it'll be different this time baby, I swear!" Especially after the Palin pick, which perhaps energizes the religious right more than any real reform movement within the GOP. I'm just not sure what she's had to face up there in Alaska, with budget surpluses that don't reflect the troubles other states have had, and intimations that spending ballooned wherever she went. Would love to be set straight on this, though.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:41 am

Slumberland wrote:Yeah, this I don't know about. Would love to believe him, but he's been around a long time, was involved in the Keating Five stuff, etc. Whether or not he believes he can take the GOP back to basics, I got the slight vibe of an abusive husband being like "it'll be different this time baby, I swear!"

Slumber:

You touch up probably the second-most key line in McCain's speech for me last night, behind "I hate war."

"I've been an imperfect public servant."

Dude manned up and admitted that he's been in some shady stuff in the past and also has a well-known temper. But again, at 72, I think the guy is at peace with himself and his flaws and wants to do the right thing for the country rather than himself or his party.

But, as SPTO said, whether he can unite the Balkan-like factions of the GOP and keep the party operatives at bay remains another big question.

I really like the man; I don't like or trust his party one bit. And unfortunately they're a package deal in American politics, "maverick candidate" or not.

Take care,
PK

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:44 am

Out of respect for Jared's wishes (which I didn't read prior to my response to JRod) I will not keep this response up here. It's not worth the trouble, anyway.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:50 am

McCain has to turn it into a choice about character, not the issues, since he's adopted many of the Bush policies, even as he tries to distance himself from the administration now (as opposed to back in 2004).

So you have character assassination on Obama, starting with the assertion that he'd rather lose a war to win a campaign. Then this whole business about how he's some selfless public servant while Obama is in this race to stroke his ego.

Got news for you, people running for the highest office have egos. But to claim only he has the country's best interests is again trying to monopolize patriotism.

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:04 am

Inuyasha wrote:wow, i thought it was very good. I liked it much better than palin's. He was very cordial, classy, and respectful, even when going after obama. McCain's speech had real substance, he gave his solutions to problems unlike Palin's speech. It may now make Palin's speech look superficial and cheap due to the snide attacks she made and no substance.

I also liked how he admitted that we are in tough times, thank god, something GW I don't think has ever done.

McCain is really a good guy, and it came out with his speech today. I would have definitely voted for him in 2000 if he had won the nomination. He does represent more the REAL republican party of Reagan and Bush Sr. that I was part of, not the one we've had since the late 90s which is ultra right wing. And because of that, he may be on the wrong side of history during this election.

The Good....

I liked how McCain admitted his party has screwed things up the past 8 years and major changes need to happen.

I liked how he was classy and didn't use sarcasm and childish humor to make his points. What a contrast between him and Rudy.

The Bad....

Didn't talk enough about the economy. That is the #1 issue right now and
we need some "straight talk"

about how he will turn things around.

His delivery. I had a hard time paying attention for the full speech. His speaking style lacks enthusiasm and energy. He just looks old out there.
He should let Sara do all his speaking if they ever get into office. At times, he sounded like was reading cue cards on Sat Nite Live, not knowing which word to emphasize.

I thought Obama went into more details about his plan and McCain's night was more like a biography. I would have been more OK with McCain being President 10 years ago. I think he's just too old now. And we all know how the Presidency ages you quickly. Why would a 72 year old man want to sign up for this stuff? When I'm 72, I hope my biggest worry is what kind of graphite shafts I need on my golf clubs

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:07 am

fsquid wrote:Did any protesters interrupt Obama's speech or is this something only liberals do?

They were protesting the war. Why would they protest at Obama's speech?

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:08 am

wco81 wrote:
So you have character assassination on Obama, starting with the assertion that he'd rather lose a war to win a campaign.

That's a blatant mischaracterization, but unsurprising since every GOP attack on Obama is treated as "character assasisnation." McCain is not only distinguishing himself from Obama on that issue, but from the wider world of politicians. I've never once heard McCain suggest that Obama would sacrifice the war for his own ambition.

That's not to say that it isn't entirely fair and appropriate for McCain and the GOP to criticize Obama's lack of judgment on the surge. Of course suggesting that Obama lacks the proper judgment to lead is also "character assasination."

Apparently every statement made to differentiate McCain from Obama is assasination of some sort. That's some pretty damn thin skin to take into a general election.

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:10 am

Inuyasha wrote:
SPTO wrote:
greggsand wrote:
McCain is a cool guy, but he's just so old...
I agree, if only this were 8 years ago.
That was the same thing I was thinking. Think if we had McCain 8 years ago. IMO this country would have been better off. I know for sure that he would have said F You to the NeoCons and wouldn't have picked an incompetent Defense Sec. like Rumsfeld. I doubt he would have invaded Iraq and probably caught bin laden. We'll never know, but I think we would have been better off with him 8 years ago.

And you're right, compared to Gore and Bush, he was the best candidate in 2000.

I agree. I wish we could rewind 8 years and put McCain in there instead of Bush. What a different situation we would be in today.

MACTEPsporta · Post by **MACTEPsporta** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:14 am

RobVarak wrote: I think the bump may take him even with or even slightly ahead of Obama in the nationwide numbers

Nah... It was a good speech, mainly because it was designed for TV viewers and not the immediate audience (pay attention Palin), but I don't see it swaying many undecideds or converting democrats. More importantly, I think he will distance himself from some of the base supporters as well. Palin will likely get them back, but it's a dangerous game to be playing. I think he will go up 2-3 points in the polls as I am sure the speech resonated with a lot of people, but I predict it will drop that and some more within a week

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:16 am

Teal wrote:
It's not a reality that I care to gloat about, but the truth needs to be told, rather than half truths or out-and-out lies. From the point the democrats took over, their numbers have gone through the floor and have discovered a new subterrainean depth that not even Jaques Cousteau could have imagined. Something's gotta be done, but not even John McCain can do it alone-we have got to stop sending dumbasses to Washington, we are the ones who can eliminate stupid shits like Pelosi, Graham, Reid, and all the other 'career' politicians...but we're too f***in lazy to do it.

You don't think they are stalled by Bush who threatens to veto everything?
Let's see what they do when they get a Dem in the oval office. Personally, I am extremely disappointed with the lack of action on their part. I can only hope they are waiting for their man before they go to work. One of the major flaws with our system: One Party President + Other Party in Congress = Not Much Getting Done.