Soccer thread 07/08

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:53 pm

How much is 18 million in Euros?

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:15 pm

MACTEPsporta wrote:Liverpool should complete the £18million signing of Robbie Keane within the next 24 hours.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story ... nd&cc=5901

Pretty much what I expected. Good move for Tott. How good it will turn out for Liverpool, we will have to wait and see. I just don't see Torres, Kuyt, and Keane on the field together. Unless Benitez smartens up and puts Kuyt at right back, where he belongs. I can't help but wonder how much of those 18-20m Rafa spent for Keane is really the cost of Man U not getting Berbatov.

Dude, you stole my theory!

I'd rather see the money spent on Keane than Barry anyway. Now the question is does he have to sell Xabi to balance out the Keane deal, or would a Xabi sale give him the cash for another move?

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:31 pm

Spurs have already said that they'll charge MU more than anyone else for Berbatov, because their chairman, Daniel Levy, hates the Drunken Scot.

This time last year, Spurs were hawking Keane round for about £8m, and I can't see that he's improved any....one good game, followed by two or three crap ones. If Spurs rated him, they wouldn't have spent £18m on Darren Bent.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:43 pm

davet010 wrote:Spurs have already said that they'll charge MU more than anyone else for Berbatov, because their chairman, Daniel Levy, hates the Drunken Scot.

This time last year, Spurs were hawking Keane round for about £8m, and I can't see that he's improved any....one good game, followed by two or three crap ones. If Spurs rated him, they wouldn't have spent £18m on Darren Bent.

Then again they spent 18m on Bent, making me dubious about how Spurs rate anyone

MACTEPsporta · Post by **MACTEPsporta** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:48 pm

fsquid wrote:How much is 18 million in Euros?

About 23m euros...

Rob, I think he was given about 15m to spend this summer. Figuring sales of Crouch, Riise, Alonso and some scrap, he could probaly raise around 30m, so being the expert negotiator that he is, he just figured he'd spend it all on two players, plus Degen, of course. So, I don't think he will buy anyone major if he can't get rid of Xabi.

Here is what I don't get. You don't pay 20m pounds for a bench player. So, we assume Keane starts. Alongside Torres, of course. Then, barring something unforseen (Benitez playinig 3 in the back) you are looking at one of two things:

1) Really strange 4-3-3 (or Benitezized variation of it) that has any two of these five (Keane, Babel, Kuyt, Voronin, Pennant) on the wings surrounding Torres. Pretty crazy, if you ask me...

2) A 4-4-2 that makes you wonder why he is not spending money on wingers, instead of trying to convert every striker he sees into one. Can you really picture a 4-4-2 with Babel and Kuyt as wide players?! Sounds more like 4-2-4. Kinda like the Brazilian team of the 60s.

Either way doesn't make any sense to me. Here is one exciting scenario.
Rafa is just getting started. Alonso will be sold. So will Babel or Kuyt, or maybe even both. The cash will be used to buy David Silva (he is Spanish and expensive, so why not) and Gareth Barry (he is just expensive), and a defender, because those can be important, I've heard.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:29 pm

David Silva - no chance, Liverpool ain't got the money.

Wingers - Babel and Pennant

4-4-2 is yer formation.

Any club who is content to pay £18m for a 'good' player not once but twice (if Barry comes) must be barmy. But then the Yank twosome have yet to convince the banks that they can finance the estimated £400m for the new stadium, so who knows ?

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:40 pm

So Bayern paid less for Ribery than Liverpool did for Keane? No wonder Bayern turns the profits they do!

MACTEPsporta · Post by **MACTEPsporta** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:27 pm

fsquid wrote:So Bayern paid less for Ribery than Liverpool did for Keane? No wonder Bayern turns the profits they do!

Ronaldinho was less as well. Keane is 50% more expensive than Ronnie. They are both 28. Good God. I bet Eto'o will go cheaper than Keane too. It's madness. I guarantee you, his argument for the owners was (must read with Spanish accent, while scratching the new goatie): "Well, it worked out with Torres, didn't it?"

MACTEPsporta · Post by **MACTEPsporta** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:39 pm

davet010 wrote:David Silva - no chance, Liverpool ain't got the money.

Wingers - Babel and Pennant

4-4-2 is yer formation.

I don't think Silva is coming. That was my ridiculous scenario. If Babel and Pennant are wingers that leaves Kuyt out of the line-up. And if they do get Barry, and he starts alongside Gerrard, that means Mascherano is out. Like I said - makes no sense. Why patch where you have no holes? They need help on defense. Badly.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:27 pm

It is a bit of puzzle, particularly given all the lip-service that Rafa made to impoving play on the wings. He wasn't reluctant to go to Babel and Kuyt on the wings, so I think he may again. It's certainly not ideal, but I'm guessing he runs out something like this:

----------------Torres -- Keane--------------

Babel--------------Gerrard--------------- Kuyt/Pennant

--------------------Mascherano--------------------

Dossena-------- Agger------Skrtel---------Carragher/Finnan

------------------------Reina--------------------------

If he doesn't sell Xabi I could also see him playing Alonso and Masch in front of the back four, sliding Keane over the right and benching one of the right "wingers".

If I had to play with those cards, I might swap Kuyt and Babel. Dossena is much more attack-oriented that Carra, so having Kuyt on the same side to track back is an attractive option. It has the bonus benefit of freeing up Babel to cut inside (his favored option anyway) onto his stronger foot. He can't/won't cross worth a damn anyway, so why not turn that weakness into a strength?

Again, these are all just options to cover up the fact that they don't have a true wide player with bona fide world class skills. Not ideal to say the least.

Macca00 · Post by **Macca00** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:53 pm

MACTEPsporta wrote:Ronaldinho was less as well. Keane is 50% more expensive than Ronnie. They are both 28. Good God. I bet Eto'o will go cheaper than Keane too. It's madness. I guarantee you, his argument for the owners was (must read with Spanish accent, while scratching the new goatie): "Well, it worked out with Torres, didn't it?"

Still happier with Keane than Barry.

Lets not forget that 3.5 Ronaldinho's gets you Carlos Tevez.

EDIT: You've also never heard Rafa speak, it should be; "It worked with Torres, no?"

MACTEPsporta · Post by **MACTEPsporta** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:34 pm

Macca00 wrote: Still happier with Keane than Barry.

Lets not forget that 3.5 Ronaldinho's gets you Carlos Tevez.

EDIT: You've also never heard Rafa speak, it should be; "It worked with Torres, no?"

Apparently 10 Ronaldinhos get you Ronaldo.

EDIT: If you want to get technical it's more like: "Jew no understand, it work wid Torres, jew know, it will work with Keane"

It is not an anti-semitic comment, I assure you.

Rob, do you realize that is 5 attackers on the field together? 4 if you make Gerrard come back EVERY time. That's ridiculous. Plus, you can't have Kuyt on the left, he lacks the ability to dribble inside, he can only be used on the right, since if he loses the ball there it will go out of bounds, rather than cause a counterattack. Either way, no one of them can cross to save their life. He wanted to get Barry to move Gerrard back on the right. That's the only reasonable explanation. Having this many center forwards will see everyone flood the box, and wait for the full backs to run down wing and provide service into the box. That leaves everything wide open for a counter. And while I understand why you would say that Kuyt is a lot more able defensively than Babel, you can't rely on him to cover for an advancing full back. He is a forward and he will not stay back. Although you can pretty much count on him to trace back after they lose the ball.

I didn't buy FIFA Manager game last year, so I have to substitute here. Here is what I would have done if I was Rafa (other than get on the diet and take anger management classes, of course). Buy Van Der Vaart for 8-10m, buy Tymoschyuk for 12-13m and here is what you get. I won't draw the back four, it's not like he has anyone to choose from back there.

---------------Torres--------------- 1 Striker
-----------(Voronin) Kuyt---------- 1 Center forward
-----VdV---------------Gerrard---- 2 Attacking midfielders
--------Masch----Tymosch-------- 2 Defensive midfielders
LB--------CB--------CB---------RB

Van der Vaart is a lefty, and can get wide to cross the ball if need be, same with Gerrard on the other side. Two holding midfield players can give attackers plenty of room to run about.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:23 pm

LMAO Why not shoehorn a few more Ukrainians in there

MACTEPsporta · Post by **MACTEPsporta** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:48 pm

RobVarak wrote:LMAO Why not shoehorn a few more Ukrainians in there

Why not? Rafa brings Spaniards, Wenger - Frenchmen, I bring Ukrainians. Seriously, though, you've heard me say that they can use Tymoschyuk a hundred times. Do you think that will not be a better Liverpool side than the one he has now? And think of all the money you can save... Maybe even enough to get Villa...

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:24 pm

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/sport/foo ... eague.html

How many games until he's assaulted?

Macca00 · Post by **Macca00** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:55 pm

Apparently Rafa's still after Barry but I don't see us buying him unless we sell Alonso - not only because we don't have the money but I don't know where we'd fit him in. I know Mascherano will be off to the Olympics for the start of the season (along with Lucas and Babel) but I once he comes back he has to start so I'm not sure where Barry AND Alonso would fit in.

Btw, Rafa called me to tell me that Robbie Keane's performances on my Irish team in the EURO 2008 DSP tournament prompted the purchase.

I'm excited to see how Keane does and also the young French striker we signed David N'Gog (and also some of the youngsters in the pre-season including Pacheco who looks like he's going to be a star). Hopefully Keane does better with the beloved Number 7 shirt than Harry Kewell did...

...oh Harry. At least he got a few goals in a Merseyside derby and gave us another Boney-M inspired song.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:32 am

Macca00 wrote:Apparently Rafa's still after Barry but I don't see us buying him unless we sell Alonso - not only because we don't have the money but I don't know where we'd fit him in. I know Mascherano will be off to the Olympics for the start of the season (along with Lucas and Babel) but I once he comes back he has to start so I'm not sure where Barry AND Alonso would fit in.

I agree. But the proposed transfer of Barry to the Reds has become another soap opera this summer. Like M. Sundin in Hockey and where B. Favre will end up by this weekend. There will have to be several outgoing transfers before Rafa is able to fund his attempts to sign him.

Speaking of Mascherano, what's up with some teams being so bloody stingy to lend their players to the Nationals. Latest case, L. Messi for Argentina. Olympics don't happen every year, let the players decide where they want to play and fulfill their dreams. Of course #19 has been his usual impressive self during Barca's friendlies.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:08 am

10spro wrote:
Macca00 wrote:Apparently Rafa's still after Barry but I don't see us buying him unless we sell Alonso - not only because we don't have the money but I don't know where we'd fit him in. I know Mascherano will be off to the Olympics for the start of the season (along with Lucas and Babel) but I once he comes back he has to start so I'm not sure where Barry AND Alonso would fit in.
I agree. But the proposed transfer of Barry to the Reds has become another soap opera this summer. Like M. Sundin in Hockey and where B. Favre will end up by this weekend. There will have to be several outgoing transfers before Rafa is able to fund his attempts to sign him.

Speaking of Mascherano, what's up with some teams being so bloody stingy to lend their players to the Nationals. Latest case, L. Messi for Argentina. Olympics don't happen every year, let the players decide where they want to play and fulfill their dreams. Of course #19 has been his usual impressive self during Barca's friendlies.

The Olympics aren't a proper national side football competition, they are a complete farce. I wouldn't want to see players disrupting preseason to go and play in some joke competition in one of the most polluted cities on Earth. No one gives a crap about it anyway, and if Messi comes back with a ruptured ACL, I can see Barca being really chuffed to be paying him £100k a week for a year's worth of inactivity. Although, to be honest, that's more likely to happen to City's newest signing Jo (Brazil) knowing our luck.

Maybe teams that lose money on injured players could ask for the IOC to repay them - after all, I'm sure that such a reputable organisation (for all the lawyers reading) is totally scrupulous and above board.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:58 am

davet010 wrote: I'm sure that such a reputable organisation (for all the lawyers reading) is totally scrupulous and above board.

Speaking as a Chicagoan, the IOC and FIFA are two organizations that really get it.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:38 am

Every time i read about people like Juan Antonio Samaranch, Sepp Blatter, Jacques Rogge or Michel Platini, for some reason an excerpt from an old Bill Hicks monologue chimes in...

"sucking Satan's pecker, suck it, suck it."

Oh, and I forgot Bernie Ecclestone, another of my personal choices in the
"Earth has 5 minutes until it is destroyed, you have a revolver and instantaneous travel powers" grand prix

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:54 am

I don't think the IOC is to blame on the whole "Olympics football is a garbage tourney". I believe FIFA was worried that if full national teams went to the Olympics, then it might encroach some on the World Cup. hence the weird U-23 with 3 overage players rule. It seems that the North American, South American, and African nations take the tourney seriously while in Europe it is not viewed the same way.

Either way, I'll watch starting in 6 days.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:25 am

fsquid wrote:I don't think the IOC is to blame on the whole "Olympics football is a garbage tourney". I believe FIFA was worried that if full national teams went to the Olympics, then it might encroach some on the World Cup. hence the weird U-23 with 3 overage players rule. It seems that the North American, South American, and African nations take the tourney seriously while in Europe it is not viewed the same way.

Either way, I'll watch starting in 6 days.

Exactly. Fifa's rules clearly stipulates that players under 23 can go to special events whether their clubs teams allows them or not. But we are talking about Barcelona here, hmmm could they think that they have more important events coming up?

Champions league? The MLS exhibitions coming up where the Argentinian is a big marketing tool for the team.

Footie is one game I care to watch, whether it's the Olympics or not, and if the top players wishes to go, and fans want to see them what's the problem?

Latest on Messi. Fifa just made a ruling allowing him to go to Beijing despita Barca's opposition and bulls**t tactics.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:04 pm

10spro wrote:
fsquid wrote:I don't think the IOC is to blame on the whole "Olympics football is a garbage tourney". I believe FIFA was worried that if full national teams went to the Olympics, then it might encroach some on the World Cup. hence the weird U-23 with 3 overage players rule. It seems that the North American, South American, and African nations take the tourney seriously while in Europe it is not viewed the same way.

Either way, I'll watch starting in 6 days.
Exactly. Fifa's rules clearly stipulates that players under 23 can go to special events whether their clubs teams allows them or not. But we are talking about Barcelona here, hmmm could they think that they have more important events coming up? Champions league? The MLS exhibitions coming up where the Argentinian is a big marketing tool for the team.

Footie is one game I care to watch, whether it's the Olympics or not, and if the top players wishes to go, and fans want to see them what's the problem?

Latest on Messi. Fifa just made a ruling allowing him to go to Beijing despita Barca's opposition and bulls**t tactics.

And are the Argentinian Olympic committee paying his wages ? No ? The Olympics as a whole are an utter waste of time, and the football 'tournament' is a joke.

The top players do not, as a rule. go to this event. The S Americans and Africans do, largely because it's viewed as a showcasing opportunity for those players currently not at big clubs.

If I was Barcelona President (and I could probably do a better job than Juan Laporta), I'd just be telling Messi that if he injures himself, then the club will not pay him another penny til he's fit for the first team again.

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:00 pm

Just because England doesn't get to fly their cute flag, doesn't mean it is worthless competition

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:05 pm

AFA doesn't pay for Messi'a wages but they have the responsability to protect his wishes and at the same time the interest of the National team. If you say that the tourney will be crappy, you're probably right but if Messi's desire is to still represent his country while he's still under 23, than equally risking any injury playing some exhibitions against the MLS, while Fifa permits it, then it's his prerogative to go.