NHL 07 and NHL 2k7 IMPRESSIONS

[webdanzer]

I haven't noticed any of what you wrote to the degree you have. I'm playing on All Star with aggression and shot blocking sliders almost maxed and I find it difficult to find any room in the crease much less skating circles around them. Good defensive positioning also increase the cpu offenses tendency to pass. I've seen the cpu put on an offensive zone passing clinic that nearly made my jaw hit the floor. Unfortunately it does not occur often enough because the AI is programmed to take the open shot and punish you for your defensive mistakes, which is does much better than 2k7. The biggest problem is the lack of precision you get with the controls while on defense. If 07 had the precision of defensive controls as 2k7 did the game would be unbelievable. As it stands it's hard to stay in the defensive position required to witness a beautiful display of offense.

I agree with all of this Scoop, good post. That 'skate around freely in the offensive zone' comment is very odd to me too, and Bill isn't the first one who has said that. I simply haven't seen it nearly like that in my games. (All-Star) Maybe it's a difficulty level thing, or a team defense setting?

[10spro]

NHL 07 makes you earn your goals and the AI will earn its goals as well, if you watch carefully what they try to do. On one game, they passed the puck down low long enough to draw me in to chase the puck, once they recognized that I abandoned my position in front of the net, they cycled the puck up the boards and found the open man in the slot who ripped a wrist shot by my goalie. It left me shaking my head because I knew I had committed to the bait.

On Superstar, you actually have to think like an NHL player to generate the time and space for good scoring chances. The result is a CPU defense that’s much more aggressive without going over the top like the 05 version.

You can do so many things with the Skill button that they might as well get rid of the deke one and create a drop pass instead next year.

My only gripe with 07 is the odd choppiness and the transition from offense to defense as you have to be careful what button you're controlling and as I mentioned somewhere in this thread, the extra button that you press can cause you to ice the puck or pass it to the wrong player.

[TRI]

I haven't noticed any of what you wrote to the degree you have. I'm playing on All Star with aggression and shot blocking sliders almost maxed and I find it difficult to find any room in the crease much less skating circles around them. Good defensive positioning also increase the cpu offenses tendency to pass. I've seen the cpu put on an offensive zone passing clinic that nearly made my jaw hit the floor. Unfortunately it does not occur often enough because the AI is programmed to take the open shot and punish you for your defensive mistakes, which is does much better than 2k7. The biggest problem is the lack of precision you get with the controls while on defense. If 07 had the precision of defensive controls as 2k7 did the game would be unbelievable. As it stands it's hard to stay in the defensive position required to witness a beautiful display of offense.

I agree with all of this Scoop, good post. That 'skate around freely in the offensive zone' comment is very odd to me too, and Bill isn't the first one who has said that. I simply haven't seen it nearly like that in my games. (All-Star) Maybe it's a difficulty level thing, or a team defense setting?

There are other people who agree with Bill's impression of NHL 2007 especially people at 2khockey.net, but I do not agree with them. It is my opinion that the CPU defense is decent and I rarely have a lot of space to skate freely in the offensive zone. Now maybe I have not mastered the controls to see this? I guess that is possible but so far I do not agree that the defense sucks. Maybe with more time with the game I will agree with Bill.

[10spro]

The site that Rob posted for Bill's blog is not working, can someone post the correct one, I am interested as to what he wrote in the comparison of both games.

[davet010]

Try this one

http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/

[billharris44]

Sorry guys, I didn't see your comments about the blog posting until now.

Here are the slider settings I was using in NHL (the sliders are on a 0-6 scale).
Superstar
Game speed 0
Puck control 3
Fatigue effect 4
Player acceleration 3
Hitting power 3
Aggression 6
Poke effectiveness 4
Pass speed 2
Saucer pass speed 2
Pass interceptions 5
Shot accuracy 4
Shot power 0
Shot block 4
Hook effectiveness 3

I just played another game and double-checked these settings. No noticeable difference from what I posted in the blog (I even did the data recording again, just to be sure).

Here's some additional detail. For the CPU offense, those pass numbers I posted were the number of times the puck was passed after a player skated into the offensive zone when it eventually resulted in a shot--so if a guy passed and it was intercepted, it wasn't recorded (which I mention in the blog post). Even if I had counted those passes as well, though, I don't think I would have gotten past 3 passes on any offensive possession. What I say over and over again (not every time, but it was the most common pattern) was a guy skating into the offensive zone, pull up a little inside the blue line, and take a slap shot. Sometimes he's skate to get closer to the goal and thent take s hot.

And these shots were really poorly selected, too. Guys pulling up and shooting in 1-on-2 situations were very common.

When I was on offense, I could skate around almost at will, and here's what I was doing. I skate in along the boards on either side, going close behind the net (to rub off anyone pursuing, because sometimes they do), then skate through (roughly) the center of the face-off circle, then turning at the top of the face-off circle to skate parallel to the blue line, then go back in at the middle of the face-off circle on the other side. Repeat.

To me, no hockey game should ever let me get behind the net time and time again. I should get my head handed to me if I'm skating around in that pattern. And there are times when I get bumped, and sometimes I'll get the puck knocked away, but only rarely can I not complete a full loop around the offensive end, and I can often do it up to three times.

This doesn't include power plays, obviously, because skating against a shorthanded team isn't a valid measurement.

What would happen pretty frequently is that I would wind up with three defenders skating behind me, chasing me around the ice for part of each circuit. Which put them absolutely and completely out of position.

2K7 just isn't like that. The A.I. is light years better, you can't skate around in the offensive end like that, and the CPU offense works the puck to set up scoring chances.

I will say that I probably wouldn't have noticed the extreme difference between the two if I hadn't been able to play them one right after the other. Doing that also really showed how different the framerates were.

As for knowing "how to play," I believe I do. I won the Stanley Cup in NHL2K3 on Hall of Fame difficulty, and that game was (I thought) pretty difficult at that level. That game, more than any hockey game I ever played, brutally punished positioning errors on defense.

It's entirely fair to say that I was harder on EA in that post, even thought I said both games had flaws. I certainly was, but I'm also much harder on A.I. flaws than presentation flaws. And I didn't give 2k7 a free pass (apologies for quoting myself):
--"NHL2K7's announcing is an embarrassment to the genre. I'd rather listen to Joe Montana Sports Talk Football on the Genesis any day."
--"Cinemotion: flat as a pancake. A disaster."
--"2K7 does do some nice things with additional controls (particularly on-ice team controls), but you know what? Nobody gives a damn if you can't shoot with the analog stick. And NHL 07 really nails the use of the analog stick, which makes the control scheme of 2K7 seem totally clunky and outdated in comparison."

I really like the goalie animations, the shot stick, and the presentation in NHL 07. And I like several things in NHL2K7 (primarily, the A.I. and the skating animations). But we keep getting asked to pay $60 for these games every year and they're not nearly polished enough to justify that kind of money.

Rob's right about not linking--I'd feel stupid linking to one of my blog posts. Didn't intend to leave you guys in the dark, though.

If you guys have a suggested slider set for NHL, I'd certainly try it. But I thought with aggression at its highest level and Superstar difficulty that I had done the obvious things.

[Leebo33]

When I was on offense, I could skate around almost at will, and here's what I was doing. I skate in along the boards on either side, going close behind the net (to rub off anyone pursuing, because sometimes they do), then skate through (roughly) the center of the face-off circle, then turning at the top of the face-off circle to skate parallel to the blue line, then go back in at the middle of the face-off circle on the other side. Repeat.

I never find this sh*t on my own because I never really test games and just play them, but against my better judgment I tried to do this tonight. I was able to do it up to 3 or 4 times with Crosby, but I also got denied a few times on my first attempt. My created Malkin was able to do sometimes but not as much as Crosby and the times I tried to do it with 3rd liners or slow defensemen I was not able to even get behind the net. At that point I got bored with the testing and went back to playing my dynasty. It's quite possible that I suck and with practice I could master doing it, but that's OK because I like the game and would rather spend my time playing it more traditionally.

As far at the number of passes before a shot, I also quickly bored with that task and gave up after a few possessions. It does bother me to a degree that the CPU shoots too much, but during my rental of 2K7 on the second highest difficulty level I had the CPU passing up *golden* opportunities to shoot just to make an extra pass. I kind of like the "fear" that I get while playing the CPU in EA. It certainly not "sim", but is more fun for my tastes and I have yet to find a hockey game that is sim anyway. Some games have good AI and nice cycling, but I have never played a game that made me feel like I was actually handling a puck, shooting, or going against a real goalie until I played NHL07. Next year I would certainly welcome either game to steal the strenghts of the other.

[billharris44]

The only reason I try to test something out to some degree before I play it is because I'll invest 50+ hours into a really good sports sim, and I've gotten burned so many times after 5-10 hours by finding some kind of gamekiller that I just can't stand. So before I start setting up a franchise, etc., I normally spend a few hours just watching how the game plays (the games that will let you, that is), or I spend a few hours just trying to get a general read on the A.I.

I remember back ten years ago or so, I'd play them anyway because there just wasn't that much to choose from. But there are at least 6-8 different games in other genres that are pretty strong right now--there's so much more to choose from these days.

[Leebo33]

The only reason I try to test something out to some degree before I play it is because I'll invest 50+ hours into a really good sports sim, and I've gotten burned so many times after 5-10 hours by finding some kind of gamekiller that I just can't stand. So before I start setting up a franchise, etc., I normally spend a few hours just watching how the game plays (the games that will let you, that is), or I spend a few hours just trying to get a general read on the A.I.

That's fine. I guess I just disagree on what is gamekiller AI. Maybe I am less "sim". I was playing the game normal (dumping the puck, trying to score, passing, etc.) and didn't even notice. I would have never tried to skate someone around the ice with no other purpose than to find AI flaws. Maybe ignorance is bliss. All I know is that if I play the game as intended the AI seems fine. It's not perfect by any means, but I wouldn't make the statement that there is no A.I. I can't take every player, skate around the ice at will, and walk in and score. It's not like getting my player behind the net leads to a perfect pass for a one-timer goal. I don't blame you for doing what you think you have to do for your enjoyment. I guess I look at it a little differently. Most of the gamekilling flaws that ruin my enjoyment of games are readily apparent by just playing the game normally...LOL. The thing that bothers me a bit is that within the context of this test you aren't even accomplishing the object of the game. I could see if you found a way to score easily (like the S-move or one-timers in games of the past) or something that would ruin the game for everyone. In a nutshell, I want as much information about a game as possible and I don't mind game testers posting results (I *especially* love it when testers point out things broken in a franchise mode that I wouldn't find out about until it's too late), but I do think it's important for people to realize the context of the results. In this case, I guess it is "if you want to just skate around the ice in the offensive end rather than try to score goals then you can (well, at least with superstar players...I couldn't do it with everyone but I probably suck)." There have been so many people here enjoying the game and I'd hate to see someone pass up a chance to play it because they think the game has no AI as that is certainly a subjective term and must be taken in context. What's it say about us when so many of us "sim" gamers are 20-40 games into our seasons and we didn't even realize the AI is braindead...LOL.

A perfect example is NFL 2K4. Someone posted on a board that the dive play in 3 WR sets was "money" and true enough if you ran that play every single play you would score a TD *every* time. You may get tackled for a loss occassionally but you can always pick up 10 yards on 4 tries. I never would have found that out on my own because I would never ever think of running the same play every time.

[billharris44]

Sorry-this was duped with the next post.

[billharris44]

The reason it's a gamekiller for me is that I noticed it in the first fifteen minutes I played the game. That's why I did those tests to start with (because I wanted to make sure I wasn't imaging things)--I was getting point-blank shots on Superstar difficulty whenever I wanted to, and the CPU was either pulling up and shooting or just passing once and shooting the vast majority of the time in the offensive end.

The thing about skating around in the offensive end is that I could break that off and get a point-blank scoring chance whenever I wanted--particularly when three guys are skating after me. And I was doing this with whichever guy had the puck when he crossed the blue line--I wasn't cherry picking guys to prove a point. If I had to do that, there wouldn't be a point.

Maybe I wouldn't have noticed either if I hadn't played NHL2K7 for about 15-30 minutes first (I think that was the order I played them). I also probably wouldn't have thought 2K7's announcing was so horrible if I hadn't heard NHL's, which is really fantastic. When I'm trying to compare two similar games, I'll play one for about 30 minutes, switch to the other for 30 minutes, then just go back and forth.

A lot of this comes down to whether a game overcomes its flaws. NCAA on the 360 this year has significant on-field issues, no matter the slider set (brain-dead cornerbacks in zone defenses, no passes knocked down at the line of scrimmage, you can block kicks but the CPU never seems to, running plays are all-or-nothing, etc.), but I still really like the game because recruiting is just incredibly good this year, and there are enough cool things that happen while you're playing to compensate for the times you want to throw your controller. So for anyone who feels like that about NHL, it's still a good game.

I don't think you have to worry about me influencing people not to try the game--well, more than about ten, anyway.

[ScoopBrady]

I totallly cosign Leebo's post. I couldn't have said it better myself. I wouldn't look forward to a new sports release if I went into it with the attitude of looking for gameplay problems by playing the game differently. If it's something I notice is a huge problem while playing a game how it should be played then it's a gamekiller to me. I played a game last night to see if I could just skate around at will and I could not. There were times when I could create space and take advantage of it but by no means did I own the offensive zone. If I tried streaking up the wings I would consistently get met in the corner and either checked, poke checked, have a pass intercepted, or get dumped off to another defender who would meet me on the other side of the net. I don't consider that braindead AI. I was using the Blackhawks and they're not very good so maybe it depends on what team you use. The game I played was 5-minute periods and the shot total for both teams was 17 (9 for them, 8 for me).

[seanmac31]

I agree as well. I am generally going to be happy with a game if it plays reasonably so long as I play reasonably. Obviously the puck cycling in the offensive zone in 07 pales next to 2K7, and the placement of defensemen isn't as good, either. That said, I think braindead AI is going way overboard. (If the AI was braindead, I wouldn't be so much more worried about it scoring in 07, and it's not like the AI gets a lot of flukey, garbage goals.) The NHL 07 AI is aggressive and takes a lot of open shots, but then again, people will give shooters a lot of clear looks. If you play quality defense, the AI will pass the puck around and look for something better.

[GameSeven]

I haven't played enough 07 offline to comment on the overall CPU AI as I've been completely absorbed with online play with that "one more game" feeling ending many a session near 2 AM.

Clearly there are some CPU positioning kinks to be worked out, but the experience online is hardly of an up-and-down game. I've had or had opponents end up with shot ranges from 1 to 15 in any given period played at 5 minutes, the ranked match default. The average is in the 7-10 range I believe. I've had a few extremely good cycling opportunities leading to sustained pressure on my opponent.

I had one of the most beautiful non-goals I've ever had in a hockey game the other day. Managing to isolate Brian Gionta on a break, the goalie came out to challenge and bought the deke, but I'd drawn the puck too far wide and couldn't pull the trigger. With the goalie still over-extended from his desperation move, I sped behind the net and tried the wraparound on the empty net only to make my move too early and jam the puck off the near post just as I got leveled by as a D-man. Just the conception of this type of play, seen on rare occassions in real hockey, I'd never seen so smoothly pulled off in a video game.

-G7

[billharris44]

Maybe you guys are using slider settings that somehow negate some of what I was seeing. I had aggression turned all the way up--do you guys have poke check, hook, and checking effectiveness turned all the way up as well?

[Zeppo]

Since I can't find anything to compel me to play v. CPU (though it is more fun in a hockey game than a football or baseball game), me and my 10-foot pole are staying well away from the above discussion about skating in circles. . . .

But, I would say the more I play the EA game (I've only played a handful of games online), the more I am enjoying it. As I get more used to the controls, the better the game is getting. Last night I played a few games with Scoop, including a National team game where we forced each other to use the broadcast camera. I noticed the more I slowed down, the less I hurried, the better my offense was. I could cycle it around, use the corners, the D-men were where I expected them to be when I tried to pass it back to the point, and I created some incredibly cool chances, though they were few. I started to get the hang of defending, a little, and have discovered the magic powers of the LB while abandoning any hope for the poke check.

This has all been said before, but I want to reiterate it: this game has a lot of problems, a lot of things that aren't really right or don't work too well (eg the defensemen at the blue line puck-handling themselves into an offside call for no reason), but what it does well it does incredibly well. Shooting in this game is just so damn fun, that the crappy stuff doesn't really bother me. In fact, I would say the crappy stuff isn't crappy enough to really bother me anyway, at least v. a human opponent, but the shooting and the shooter v. goalie stuff is just transcendent.

A lot of the little things are really good as well, for example the replays. First of all, how does this EA game get great between-period highlights, and on top of that a fully manual replay system online, while Madden gets no replays at all? Grr. EA, I'd like to introduce you to a friend of mine known as EA. . . . The between-period highlights set a new bar for crisp, efficient editing. You see all the shots (or at least it feels like it) and there's no fat at all, just cut right to the bone. Awesome.

[Zeppo]

Maybe you guys are using slider settings that somehow negate some of what I was seeing. I had aggression turned all the way up--do you guys have poke check, hook, and checking effectiveness turned all the way up as well?

Is it perhaps aggression all the way up that causes the defenders to chase you around, where with it lower they may be more attentive to their responsibilities?

[Leebo33]

As usual, I would love to have descriptions of the sliders. Are we all assuming that aggression only applies to the defensive end? Could it make the CPU shoot more quickly on offense as well? One of the slider sets I was using actually had aggression at zero and it played pretty well. I think I may have aggression back at default.

[billharris44]

Maybe you guys are using slider settings that somehow negate some of what I was seeing. I had aggression turned all the way up--do you guys have poke check, hook, and checking effectiveness turned all the way up as well?

Is it perhaps aggression all the way up that causes the defenders to chase you around, where with it lower they may be more attentive to their responsibilities?

That's certainly possible. I turned it all the way up because I was skating around relatively unobstructed at the default, but what I can't remember is if guys were skating after me like they were with aggression at max.

If I get a few minutes later today, I'll try it with aggression at 0.

[MizzouRah]

I'm using AS defaults, but I can skate around much better with say, Bill Guerin.. then say, Dan Hinote.

I love playing the Penguins and seeing Crosby skate around with my defesemen scrambling to stop him as he makes his way to my end for a shot. I can definitly tell who's who on the ice for both teams.

[webdanzer]

I did the skate in circles test yesterday, and had similar results to Leebo. The first guy would get me often, but when he didn't I was able to follow Bill's pattern and get a few laps in, although they would bump me offside at the blue-line on occasion. I never had a train following me though,and I play with aggression at default.

I also didn't really notice the circling leading to any great scoring chances, though. The defense, though not clobbering me like they should, generally blocked my path to the net if I decided to break the pattern. Maybe those were the guys that followed Bill.

At any rate, I do the same sort of 'testing' that Bill does. I don't go looking for things, but if I think I notice something during 'regular' gameplay, I will try to recreate the circumstances to see if what I saw is actually a problem with the game. In MVP Baseball of past years, I did this with the lefty glitch and with the low and outside pitch's effectiveness. Sometimes the 'tests' bear out, sometimes they don't, but I like Bill prefer being made aware of them before discovering them after I have invested time and money into the game. And if you play online or read message boards at all, it is very hard to remain in blissful ignorance about a game's flaws for very long.

Now, everyone's level of what comprises a Gamebreaker varies, of course. Skating circles in the offensive zone would not be one for me in this case. If the issue was that skating circles in the offensive zone led to an overabundance of easy goals, it WOULD be an issue for me...but that didn't translate to me so far...though it may have for Bill.

In regards to the CPU shooting too much, yeah, they do. But they will set up some really nice passes on occasion, especially if you begin your defense by forcing them outside.

At the moment I still enjoy both games pretty equally.

[TRI]

Maybe you guys are using slider settings that somehow negate some of what I was seeing. I had aggression turned all the way up--do you guys have poke check, hook, and checking effectiveness turned all the way up as well?

Bill try increasing every players aggression and checking ability and decreasing puck control. I did this and it seems to help and make the CPU team defense more aggressive and better. Now I have only played a few games, but it seems better. I also play with shot accuracy slider at 0. It seems that slider adjustments alone are not quite enough.

[10spro]

I have the players aggression maxed out and puck control at 0. The other change I made was to have player acceleration at 4 making up for the lack of speed or just bump up the speed to 1. Also try to max out the hook effectiveness. Playing on All stars, as well as maxed out fatigue effect and you won't see any AI issues if at all while you're entering the blue line.

[TRI]

I have the players aggression maxed out and puck control at 0. The other change I made was to have player acceleration at 4 making up for the lack of speed or just bump up the speed to 1. Also try to max out the hook effectiveness. Playing on All stars, as well as maxed out fatigue effect and you won't see any AI issues if at all while you're entering the blue line.

I have players acceleration and puck control at zero but hitting, aggression, poke check, shot blocking, and hook effectiveness at 6.

[ScoopBrady]

After doing a little messing around last night I'm starting to think that the aggression slider has to do with the cpu offense and not the defense. I had been playing with the aggression slider maxed out so I tried with it all the way down and the cpu offense passed the puck more often rather than shooting. There were still times when they'd shoot right away but I was able to get them cycling the puck on more than one occasion with good positioning. The result was more goals by the cpu offense.