And so it begins with EA and cutting next gen features

[DivotMaker]

And be the bigger man? Nah that is not my style. Plus you were the one who took my FACTS and twisted into somehow being MISINFORMATION. You are the one that pissed in my Post Toasties.

Yeah, it is all my fault isn't it? What a shock.

Now let's see if you can follow your own advice and fess up to the yellow tint in my milk.

Fess up to what? Correcting your blatant misinformation? Do you always act like this when you are proven wrong? God I hope you aren't married....


-------------------------------------

Edit: On second thought I will be the bigger man. I am sure this forum will be better off without me. PK I simply request that you ban the bdoughty account as we all know I have no willpower.

Thanks in advance,

Goes to pour new bowl of milk on my Post Toasties. Delicious.

Martyrdom...

[DivotMaker]

Well, if the PS3 is released in March and Tiger is a launch title with 12 courses, then I guess we'll know where EA's allegiance lies. Either that, or the checks for the development team will have cleared by then.

Great point and if that happens, I will be in line to take my medicine.

Seriously, Tim, the bastard love child of Ray Charles and Jose Feliciano could see that EA treats the Xbox family of products like second-class citizens. From the late adoption of Xbox Live (at the same time XSN disappeared -- and I wouldn't put an EA on XBL for the death of XSN blackmail past EA), to the paucity of modes for Madden 360 to the lack of courses for Tiger 360 to the lightly upgraded Xbox graphics for FIFA 360, the Xbox 360 is a low priority for EA. It looks like Port City from the Xbox with graphical upgrades, some nice, some slight.

While that may be true of other EA titles, why would EA employ TRIPLE the number of artists for TW360 if they were not trying to show off what the 360 could do?

We'll see what the EA lineup looks like at the launch of the PS3. I'll bet the farm that it will be a hell of a lot more robust than that for the Xbox 360 launch.

That may very well be. If it is, then we will know that Sony is likely a better marketer and partner than MS is.

You say the development kits were late arriving from MS. Does EA have the PS3 development kits from Sony yet?

Take care,
PK

Not for Tiger PS3 they don't AFAIK. All of their efforts now that they have only the 360 to finish is going into the 360.

[Boom]

Just as someone on the outside looking in, I do have to point out one thing on the following statement.

to the lack of courses for Tiger 360

Let's not forget that the first version of TW for the PS2 shipped with just 3 courses. now, if that version had shipped with 9 or 12 and now the 360 is stripped to 6 I'd agree one hundred percent.

On a side note, if TW360 plays like current console versions it could have 500 courses and I still wouldn't give two shits about the game.

[ScoopBrady]

Who cares? Get the game working first and then worry about all the other bullshit features. If it plays like the Xbox version and has online play I could care less if it has Create-a-player, owner mode, superstar mode, or Classic teams. If that's what's important to you as a sports gamer then don't get the game. It really is as simple as that.

I care, otherwise I would not have posted this. If you have no issue with EA removing features from games simply to repackage in a future version then you are part of the problem. Congrats, EA loves consumers like you, willing to take anything they offer. I will wait to get a Xbox 360 before I decide if I purchase this or not, but just because this does not affect you does not mean it is not worth discussion.

So F*CK OFF.

Wow, don't you think that's a bit harsh? I should f*** off because I don't care that EA is not including features I didn't use in the current gen offerings? I just don't see what the big deal is. I imagine it's pretty damn hard getting a game to work on a brand new system and I'd rather them focus on gameplay in the first release rather than extras I don't care about. Why can't I just be friends with myself? Do I really have to f*** myself?

[AcemanPR]

WTF guys.

First of all, DivotMaker is completely correct in this argument. The first version of most sports games are lacking some features found in 3rd, 4th, and 5th versions of the game on older consoles. The reason is because it takes time and testing to reproduce that code from the ground up. Software kits change for each new console, so games have to be produced from scratch. And with bigger hardware, developers are spending more time on getting the games to look more realistic.

I can't believe how some of you responded to DivotMaker. He is the one with the facts straight. Being a developer myself, I get disgusted when people think we can just pull something out of the air and get it done.

Bottom line, you have a choice to buy the 1st, and more stripped down version, of a sports game on the 360, or wait a year for the next version when developers have another full year to add onto a game.

[Leebo33]

If true, the omission of the create-a-player option is indeed really weak. That's not something that should be left out and is almost essential IMO.

I think 6 courses is fine as long as the gameplay is good. How many courses did Links have on Xbox? I don't remember many people complaining about that to the same degree. I can't imagine the backlash if EA would have done what Microsoft did (only offer a fraction of the courses of the competition and then charge for extra courses a few months later).

[AcemanPR]

Bottom line is that these gaming companies are out to make whatever oney they can. Madden is a multi-million selling franchise. They have nothing to lose to bring out a bare bones Madden game if it plays a good game of football and looks spectacular. If you want the other stuff, then don't buy the first version. The first NCAA football game on Xbox didn't have some of the features the PS2 version had that year.

[Leebo33]

If you want the other stuff, then don't buy the first version.

That's good advice. All these years I've been buying things regardless of whether they had the features I wanted or not. Now I see the light.

[James_E]

WTF guys.

First of all, DivotMaker is completely correct in this argument. The first version of most sports games are lacking some features found in 3rd, 4th, and 5th versions of the game on older consoles. The reason is because it takes time and testing to reproduce that code from the ground up. Software kits change for each new console, so games have to be produced from scratch. And with bigger hardware, developers are spending more time on getting the games to look more realistic.

Well, I doubt things are done from scratch. I develop software for a living as well. There's no way it's whole new game engine with AI, and stuff written from scratch. THe logic for game engine, AI, rules etc, and owners mode, create a player probably doesn't change much at all when moving to the new platform. Yes the underlying hardware changes, but I was under the impression that EA has a hardware abstraction layer which enables them to run the same game code on multiple consoles (PS2, Xbox, GC) so that most of what is in the hardware is hidden from the game engine and in platform specific code for each console. The engine calls the same API functions regardless of platform (probably with some minor tweaks.) These things handle the loading of artwork, graphics, sound, controller interface etc.

Yes, I know it's not *that* simple. But the bottom line is there is no way everything is written from scratch. It's probably simply about artwork, and tester time. They have to prioritize what can get done AND TESTED in time.

That's my guess anyway. Call it bullshit if you want... maybe I'm totally wrong. It's how we do it where I work (I work to provide the software that allows all our applications to run on any of our chips, with no application level changes. These apps certainly are not as complex as a Madden game application though. )

[blueduke]

BD is correct in that EA has treated the Xbox like a stepsister. All it gets is PS2 ports and their first next gen game, Madden has features dropped from it. Doesn't EA absolutely dominate video game software sales? They make mucho bucks that's for sure. And they can only hire enough talent to produce 6 courses?

[DivotMaker]

And they can only hire enough talent to produce 6 courses?

You do not seem to understand how EA manages their game development budgets. Tiger does well, but it does not hold a candle to Madden, the BF series, The Sims, etc. Each game has a budget based upon projected sales for the year. Executive Producers are responsible for seeing that their game is developed and published within the budget alloted. The budget for TW is FAR smaller than the budget for other higher profile EA games. Just because EA does well collectively, they do not employ a "rob Peter to pay Paul" type of business model.

As far as Tiger is concerned, there are roughly HALF as many employees working on TW2006 than there was working on TW2001. Yet, there are now THREE more platforms of the game to develop for than there was back then with almost HALF the resources. EA has ponied up with additional development resources for TW360. I do not think that many of you understand the incredible amount of detail that these courses are being constructed with. The texture work and seam blending is beyond anything I have yet seen. The lighting is another area that has shown great improvment. I feel pretty strongly that if EA had another 6 months to a year, the 360 version would have 12-15 courses at launch. That being said, I do hope they are intending to participate in XB Live by offering additional courses for download. If those courses look as good as the screenshots indicate, I would be willing to pay for additional courses as long as the gameplay is compelling enough....

[b_assassin]

From the late adoption of Xbox Live (at the same time XSN disappeared -- and I wouldn't put an EA on XBL for the death of XSN blackmail past EA).

I'm almost certain that the death of XSN was a stipulation of the XBL deal between MS and EA. It will never be confirmed publicly, but has never been aggressively denied by either MS or EA (as far as I know). Honestly, MS needed EA Sports on XBL far more than EA needed to be on XBL, so MS killing XSN was probably a worthy sacrifice from a business standpoint.

Now, veering back on topic...

Not trying to defend EA for cutting features, but it seems fair to reason that they just don't have enough time to deliver on every single feature of their current gen games with the next-gen launch titles. The fact that their games will be $60, I can understand why many people would be pi$$ed. For those of you that are bothered by such things, just stay away, and wait until the games have the features you are interested in. Easier said than done, especially when you're like me and constantly fall prey to the next shiny new game/object/gadget/thingy...

[CerealKillah]

Apparently posted at OS but I found this at GAF

EGM Magazine

I'm scanning through it now and hear this. Madden and Al Michaels will no the commentators for the 360 version. They say the no name announcer not announcers will call the game like he works for the teams local radio station. Saying he'll sound more emotional when you make a great play. But the ask madden feature is still in the game.

They also have a small section saying "why next gen madden ain't all that." It will not have owner or superstar mode. No classic teams and no create a player.

Some other stuff while scanning through. If you have surround sound you can hear a defender's footsteps and his heavy breathing behind you. I'll post more later when i get home as i'm getting ready to leave work.

No Superstar Mode or owners mode... I called that one a few months back.


Pathetic if true EA.... PATHETIC

Its dummies like you that can't see the big picture...Lets see EA get gameplay and the basics down 1st on next gen then add the extras...Superstar and hot dog mode and press box mode is a waste of time anyway...Lets see gameplay 1st. EA is doing the right thing...next gen is a process...not a flash in the pan one year deal.

[Inuyasha]

Well, if the PS3 is released in March and Tiger is a launch title with 12 courses, then I guess we'll know where EA's allegiance lies. Either that, or the checks for the development team will have cleared by then.

Seriously, Tim, the bastard love child of Ray Charles and Jose Feliciano could see that EA treats the Xbox family of products like second-class citizens. From the late adoption of Xbox Live (at the same time XSN disappeared -- and I wouldn't put an EA-on-XBL-for-the-death-of-XSN blackmail past EA), to the paucity of modes for Madden 360 to the lack of courses for Tiger 360 to the lightly upgraded Xbox graphics for FIFA 360, the Xbox 360 is a low priority for EA. It looks like Port City from the Xbox with graphical upgrades, some nice, some slight.

We'll see what the EA lineup looks like at the launch of the PS3. I'll bet the farm that it will be a hell of a lot more robust than that for the Xbox 360 launch.

You say the development kits were late arriving from MS. Does EA have the PS3 development kits from Sony yet?

Take care,
PK

They will always favor sony over ms as long as sony holds the title for most sales. It's unfair but it's smart business.

I won't be surprised if in the next generation, the PS3 games look a lot better than the Xbox360 games. Of course EA will say they look better because of the superior hardware but that would put their current port excuse (we develop for the weakest system and port games to save money) out of the water.

[GTHobbes]

And they can only hire enough talent to produce 6 courses?

As far as Tiger is concerned, there are roughly HALF as many employees working on TW2006 than there was working on TW2001. Yet, there are now THREE more platforms of the game to develop for than there was back then with almost HALF the resources. EA has ponied up with additional development resources for TW360. I do not think that many of you understand the incredible amount of detail that these courses are being constructed with. The texture work and seam blending is beyond anything I have yet seen. The lighting is another area that has shown great improvment. I feel pretty strongly that if EA had another 6 months to a year, the 360 version would have 12-15 courses at launch. That being said, I do hope they are intending to participate in XB Live by offering additional courses for download. If those courses look as good as the screenshots indicate, I would be willing to pay for additional courses as long as the gameplay is compelling enough....

Good post, Divot. I would have assumed that the development team for TW2006 would've been twice the size of 2001's, not the other way around. With that said, I'm surprised there aren't more contenders to the golf throne. You would think some publisher would throw a bunch of money to some developer to come up with a great golf game, if EA is cutting back in that area.

[Boom]

Hobbes,
The reality is though, that the golf arena just isn't a big money maker. You could dethrown EA Sports so to speak in the golf market (but then again, without Tiger, good luck trying) and still not make a lot of money.

Is it really worth throwing a lot of money, man hours etc into something that won't reap you big rewards.. even if successful? I don't think so.

[Sport73]

I heard from a contact (high-level) inside EA that the company is definitely in favor of the PS3; he commented on the technology mostly, but I think it's for 3 reasons:

1. They didn't want a new console this soon. The return on investment (for game development) is better for 'franchise' games in the same way it's better for console makers later in the console's life. You've developed the graphics engine, gameplay engine etc. and you just need to add some features, rosters etc. It costs less to make because you don't need a 30-man team to create the core graphics, so you make more money. By launching early, XBox 360 is changing the equation.

2. Online & Revenue. The main reason behind the late EA arrival on XBox Live was EA's desire to own the online community (EA NET) and be able to charge their customers directly for the privilege of playing EA games online. XBox's fixed priced LIVE network gives the money to MS. The deal to bring EA onto LIVE was for Microsoft to allow EA to control/create the experience (notice EA games don't completely follow standard Friend List etc. protocol?) and allow EA to CHARGE (when appropriate) for their online content. The same problem exists in the next round. Even though EA and MS made peace, EA favors Sony because Sony has given them full control.

3. Lead Platform. Whether because the development teams think it's the best box from a technical standpoint, or the Marketing guys think it's the eventual winner in the console wars, or the VP's are getting better licensing deals...EA likes to choose a lead console and make everything else a port. The PS2 was the lead console in this generation, and early indications are that the PS3 will be the lead in the next. The wild-card to this equation is the difficulty in programming the PS3 versus the relative 'ease' in programming for the 360. The technical guys could eventually decide that the cheapest path to the best results is to use the 360 as lead.

EA has been in on the PS3 from the start, and no doubt has development kits in house.

[dbdynsty25]

Apparently posted at OS but I found this at GAF

EGM Magazine

I'm scanning through it now and hear this. Madden and Al Michaels will no the commentators for the 360 version. They say the no name announcer not announcers will call the game like he works for the teams local radio station. Saying he'll sound more emotional when you make a great play. But the ask madden feature is still in the game.

They also have a small section saying "why next gen madden ain't all that." It will not have owner or superstar mode. No classic teams and no create a player.



Some other stuff while scanning through. If you have surround sound you can hear a defender's footsteps and his heavy breathing behind you. I'll post more later when i get home as i'm getting ready to leave work.

No Superstar Mode or owners mode... I called that one a few months back.


Pathetic if true EA.... PATHETIC

Its dummies like you that can't see the big picture...Lets see EA get gameplay and the basics down 1st on next gen then add the extras...Superstar and hot dog mode and press box mode is a waste of time anyway...Lets see gameplay 1st. EA is doing the right thing...next gen is a process...not a flash in the pan one year deal.

And the streak continues. Just ban him already Jared.

[fsquid]

Let me just get in here with an EA sucks dick.

[DivotMaker]

Let me just get in here with an EA sucks dick.

It is comments like yours that diminish the value of a discussion forum. Unbelievably unnecessary....

[fsquid]

Let me just get in here with an EA sucks dick.

It is comments like yours that diminish the value of a discussion forum. Unbelievably unnecessary....

yes, my one line, sarcastic post has now ruined a forum. Get off your high horse mate.

[sportdan30]

This just in. "Mascot" mode will be absent from NCAA Football 2007 for next gen.......

Riots in the streets I tell ya!

Lighten up everyone. Take a Xanax next time you want to rip someone a new one for not having the same opinion as yours.

I think we should all get together and watch a Brady Bunch episode. We'll all feel better then.

[ScoopBrady]

I think we should all get together and watch a Brady Bunch episode. We'll all feel better then.

Now that's what I like to hear.

[Brando70]

I am really at a loss as to why people get so worked up if a next-gen game loses some features. A lot of us are older guys who have been gaming for at least a couple console generations of more. This sort of thing happens every single time a new console comes out.

The difference is that EA is one of the only sports game developers that has survived over these multiple platforms, so it seems like they are the only ones to "cut" features. Yet most games that debut on new platforms lack basic features from similar games on earlier platforms. NFL 2k was very bare bones when it arrived, and had a poor running game on top of that. I seem to recall that NBA 2k had no players in the free agent pool, making season mode a little goofy. High Heat on the PS2 had no CPU GM activity of any kind when it first debuted there. And so on and so on.

There are a lot of legitimate gripes against EA, but I'm not sure how you can single out EA for a practice that nearly every other developer follows.

One last thing: if you're going to leave the forum, please avoid the "You won't have Dick Nixon to kick around any more" approach.

[ScoopBrady]

I am really at a loss as to why people get so worked up if a next-gen game loses some features. A lot of us are older guys who have been gaming for at least a couple console generations of more. This sort of thing happens every single time a new console comes out.

The difference is that EA is one of the only sports game developers that has survived over these multiple platforms, so it seems like they are the only ones to "cut" features. Yet most games that debut on new platforms lack basic features from similar games on earlier platforms. NFL 2k was very bare bones when it arrived, and had a poor running game on top of that. I seem to recall that NBA 2k had no players in the free agent pool, making season mode a little goofy. High Heat on the PS2 had no CPU GM activity of any kind when it first debuted there. And so on and so on.

There are a lot of legitimate gripes against EA, but I'm not sure how you can single out EA for a practice that nearly every other developer follows.

One last thing: if you're going to leave the forum, please avoid the "You won't have Dick Nixon to kick around any more" approach.

Good post Brando. That's how I feel about the situation so I'll go f*** off now.

Who said they were leaving?