OT: Lootings, Carjackings, and shootings in New Orleans

[DivotMaker]

I never mix personal vendettas with compliments on taste in golf screenshots.

Yes, you never do anything of the sort, do you?

I will save Jared the time and back away from this thread before you escalate this into something it never was.

Real simple. Don't respond to me with your offensive attitude and there is no problem whatsoever. If you feel the need to blast me again, take it to PM or back away from the keyboard. Very simple solution....

[laurenskye]

It's pretty sad when a tragedy becomes a finger pointing session. It doesn't really matter what could have been done, it's over. If we spent this much energy arguing who is at fault maybe some help would get to these people.

Remember this is OUR country, Bush is OUR president, just as Clinton was OUR president.

It was a natural disaster folks.

Shut the hell up and do something constructive to help.

[DivotMaker]

It's pretty sad when a tragedy becomes a finger pointing session. It doesn't really matter what could have been done, it's over. If we spent this much energy arguing who is at fault maybe some help would get to these people.

Remember this is OUR country, Bush is OUR president, just as Clinton was OUR president.

It was a natural disaster folks.

Shut the hell up and do something constructive to help.

Could not agree more.

[JackB1]

It's pretty sad when a tragedy becomes a finger pointing session. It doesn't really matter what could have been done, it's over. If we spent this much energy arguing who is at fault maybe some help would get to these people.

Remember this is OUR country, Bush is OUR president, just as Clinton was OUR president.

It was a natural disaster folks.

Shut the hell up and do something constructive to help.

figuring out what went wrong and how to make it not go wrong the next time IS doing something constructive. Getting rid of incompetents and getting people that can do the job they were hired for IS being constructive. Sweeping past failures under the rug without learning from them isn't very contructive. 9/11 Commison anyone?

[pk500]

This isn't exactly encouraging:

>>>President Bush met with his Cabinet Tuesday to discuss the relief efforts and said that he was sending Vice President Dick Cheney to the region to monitor the progress.<<<

The progress of the oil refining capacity of the area, maybe? Can't let those oil stocks drop.

Somehow the image of Dick "Go f*ck yourself" Cheney being the compassionate face of the Federal government in the Gulf Coast just doesn't quite add up. But then again, maybe Cheney's experience in the private sector will help eliminate the red tape and lack of leadership plaguing the bureaucratic response from all levels of government now.

One can only hope.

Take care,
PK

[Spooky]

This isn't exactly encouraging:

>>>President Bush met with his Cabinet Tuesday to discuss the relief efforts and said that he was sending Vice President Dick Cheney to the region to monitor the progress.<<<

The progress of the oil refining capacity of the area, maybe? Can't let those oil stocks drop.

Somehow the image of Dick "Go f*ck yourself" Cheney being the compassionate face of the Federal government in the Gulf Coast just doesn't quite add up. But then again, maybe Cheney's experience in the private sector will help eliminate the red tape and lack of leadership plaguing the bureaucratic response from all levels of government now.

One can only hope.

Take care,
PK

Interesting. I was almost certain that Cheney was dead and they were just not saying anything. I mean, where the hell has he been the last week? Has anyone seen him at all since this thing hit? Boy, he's a real class act.

[JRod]

Divotmaker- Laurenskye,

You would be singing a different tune, if a natural disaster occured in your neck of the woods and you had to wait days for water, and relief efforts.


Fact of the matter is, what if this was a hurricane what if this was the next attack on the US. This just goes to show that this country right now is not prepared for large scale destruction whether by nature or terrorists.

Hell even some natural disasters give you an earlier warning than terrorists. Its not like the big mass of clouds wasn't a clue.

Oh and its not over, New Orleans is not back to normal. Recovery is still going on. Clean-up has barely begun. Just because the media isn't harping on the chaos doesn't mean its all rosey in NO.


Lastly, I think the Mayor put it very pointedly in his interview with ABC. This isn't a Black issue its a class issue. Like I think scoop posted a few days ago, how were these peoplel going to get out of town, with what car, gas money, hotel, shelter? I hope this makes the country think about class and race again. We really do have two Americas. If this was Palm Beach not New Orleans, I honestly think this poor of an effort would have been made.

[pk500]

I can only laugh at the Federal officials who claim "We never could have predicted the magnitude of this storm." F*ck, the National Weather Service issued this alert verbatim Sunday morning, nearly 24 hours before the storm hit:

>>>>>>>>

URGENT - WEATHER MESSAGE
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NEW ORLEANS LA
1011 AM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005

...DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED...

HURRICANE KATRINA...A MOST POWERFUL HURRICANE WITH UNPRECEDENTED STRENGTH...RIVALING THE INTENSITY OF HURRICANE CAMILLE OF 1969.

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER.

AT LEAST HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...ALL WOOD FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED...ALL WINDOWS WILL BE BLOWN OUT.

THE VAST MAJORITY...OF TREES WILL BE SNAPPED OR UPROOTED. ONLY THE HEARTIEST WILL REMAIN STANDING...BUT BE TOTALLY DEFOLIATED.

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.

<<<<<<<<

Sounds like the NWS is about the only Federal agency to tell the truth during this whole catastrophe. This prediction/forecast is so accurate it's almost chilling. Too bad the Feds don't even listen to the weather arm of their own NOAA.

Take care,
PK

[10spro]

The whole world needed a unifying leader, who could only have emerged from the White House, and Mr. Bush does not look up to the task. (He did cut his vacation short.)

The United States desperately needs a president who can talk to everyone, but Mr Bush prefers the rhetoric of division.

911 was Mr Bush’s zenith, his highest moment, and Katrina may be his nadir. Not to compare, but the NY atrocity was at the hands of a group of terrorists that were on a mission. Nobody saw it coming (although there were warnings since the Clinton administration).

The Hurricane was coming, period. The only unknown fact was to what degree, the natural phenomenon would come at. At this VERY point, local and federal authorities should have had a plan for evacuation.

The long line of refugees leaving the wonderful city of New Orleans, trudging along the dry tracks of the only railway line not under water, is a foretaste of dispirited protests to come in the world’s greatest country, a land that can no longer get it together to work together.

And now Bush sends Cheney to monitor any progress? More like a regress.

[DivotMaker]

Divotmaker- Laurenskye,

You would be singing a different tune, if a natural disaster occured in your neck of the woods and you had to wait days for water, and relief efforts.

I won't pretend to speak for Laurenskye, but I HAVE experienced at least two natural disasters first hand, both hurricanes. I did survive hurricane Alicia in 1983. The eye of the storm passed right over my then apartment. I also survived tropical storm Allison a few years ago which brought Houston to a standstill with flooding similar, but not eaqual to what Katrina did to New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. Understand, I DO realize that Katrina is far more severe than the two storms I have witnessed first hand.

What I was responding to is the incessant finger pointing that goes on and on. No one can change the past. What is done is done. There will be plenty of time in the near future to assess everything that went wrong and take corrective actions both in process and in people. I think what Laurenskye was suggesting is to stop focusing on what cannot be changed (the past). I think we all realize that there are tremendous gaps in the entire governmental response (from the top down and vice versa) that need to be addressed. There are also some people who have shown that they are incapable of making the right decisions in a timely manner. Beating this dead horse might be therapeutic to some, but at some point what do you gain by bashing the same people over the same issues ad nauseum? I don't know about the rest of you, but I would find a discussion on how the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast can get back to a normal life sooner than continuing to hang governmental officials in effigy (figuratively speaking)....

[Sport73]

Bill Maher had some good fake quotes from Bush that went something like this (not exact, but the basic point is there)...


"Hurricanes hate freedom; we will hunt this Katrina down dead or alive"

"Somebody give me a bull-horn dammit; a pile of rubble and a bull horn and my ratings will be at 80%!"

"No one could've seen this coming...The jury, much like that of evolution, is still out on weather forecasting tells us anything."

4 days to get relief to these people? Makes you miss the days when George W. only sat on his ass for 7 minutes!

-----------

There is NO excuse for the performance of our government in this instance. Hundreds if not thousands of people died needlessly because of inaction. This goes beyond the state, the mayor, or even the individual decisions of the residents of the gulf coast; George should've had every available guardsman on hand and been making drops from the minute the storm passed; they probably wouldn't take his calls: George who? That guy never showed up here... Sure, they thought they dogded a bullet until late Monday, but you should've prepared for the worst, which would've meant having this stuff on hand...

Makes me sick.

[pk500]

Beating this dead horse might be therapeutic to some, but at some point what do you gain by bashing the same people over the same issues ad nauseum? I don't know about the rest of you, but I would find a discussion on how the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast can get back to a normal life sooner than continuing to hang governmental officials in effigy (figuratively speaking)....

The horse needs to be beaten because this president created a billion-dollar, bureaucratic, Cabinet-level department four years ago for an efficient, effective Federal response to disasters like this, and it failed miserably in its first big crisis.

Plus the vacuum of leadership from this "crisis president" has been appalling. And already the White House has appointed Karl Rove in a campaign to shift responsibility from the White House to state and local governments, according to <b>REPUBLICAN</b> sources in a New York Times report:

>>>>>

EXCERPTS:

Under the command of President Bush’s two senior political advisers, the White House rolled out a plan this weekend to contain the political damage from the administration’s response to Hurricane Katrina.

It orchestrated visits by cabinet members to the region, leading up to an extraordinary return visit by Mr. Bush planned for Monday, … and sought to move the blame for the slow response to Louisiana state officials, according to Republicans familiar with the White House plan.

The effort is being directed by Mr. Bush’s chief political adviser, Karl Rove, and his communications director, Dan Bartlett. … In many ways, the unfolding public relations campaign reflects the style Mr. Rove has brought to the political campaigns he has run for Mr. Bush.

In a reflection of what has long been a hallmark of Mr. Rove's tough political style, the administration is also working to shift the blame away from the White House and toward officials of New Orleans and Louisiana who, as it happens, are Democrats.

FULL STORY:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/natio ... oref=login

<<<<<

Unbelievable. Up to 10,000 bodies are floating in New Orleans, and Karl Rove is playing the politics of partisan division with approval from Bush.

That's why this Administration is under the burning spotlight of scrutiny and should stay there while Katrina relief efforts continue. This White House has operated on hubris for much too long, and we're seeing the result unfold tragically before our very eyes in New Orleans, Gulfport, Biloxi and the surrounding areas.

Take care,
PK

[Dave]

It is depressing when we hear more about the spin planning than we do the relief planning...

[XXXIV]

It is depressing when we hear more about the spin planning than we do the relief planning...

Yes...and we get more spinning than aid...

[RobVarak]

I find people's frustration with the politics interesting. Like I said earlier, it's not like there's any direct opportunity cost here. We can debate these things in this forum, the news channels can televise the pundits wagging their tongues, and politicians can politic, and none of it meaningfully detracts from the actual recovery effort.

If Jared and I trade posts for days, it's not like we're hindering the draining of New Orleans. By the same token, if Maureen Dowd and Bill O'Reilly exchange barbs in their various media it doesn't stop the Red Cross, National Guard etc. This is an era of incredibly fast moving information, and it would be silly to retard discussion (which inherently consists of not necessarily equal parts spin and substance) out of some misbegotten notion that it detracts from the recovery effort or is disrespectful.

Like pk said, there are issues that need to be addressed and there's sure as hell no meaningful reason to wait.

[JackB1]

Sounds like the NWS is about the only Federal agency to tell the truth during this whole catastrophe. This prediction/forecast is so accurate it's almost chilling. Too bad the Feds don't even listen to the weather arm of their own NOAA.

Take care,
PK

Reminds me of "BIN LADEN DETERMINED TO ATTACK IN THE US USING AIRPLANES".

[laurenskye]

No I would not be singing another tune. Read my post again and tell me how many people did this seven pages on an internet site feed? That's energy spent in the wrong direction.

After everyone is OK and the cleanup is done you are all free to start spinning and finger pointing.

And yes I've seen many, as my parents live on the Gulf side in Florida.

[dbdynsty25]

No I would not be singing another tune. Read my post again and tell me how many people did this seven pages on an internet site feed?

I'd venture to guess that most people that posted on these "seven pages" fed quite a few people with monitary donations.

[Dave]

No I would not be singing another tune. Read my post again and tell me how many people did this seven pages on an internet site feed? That's energy spent in the wrong direction.

After everyone is OK and the cleanup is done you are all free to start spinning and finger pointing.

And yes I've seen many, as my parents live on the Gulf side in Florida.

OK, then how many people are being fed by Karl Rove firing up his spin machine? I'm a lot more concerned about what people with the ability to move billions of dollars worth of assets are doing rather than what a bunch of sports videogame nuts are doing with their free time.

[pk500]

No I would not be singing another tune. Read my post again and tell me how many people did this seven pages on an internet site feed?

I'd venture to guess that most people that posted on these "seven pages" fed quite a few people with monitary donations.

Raises hand as a donator, one of millions of hands raising in America in support of those hurting beyond our imagination.

My kids also donated, as my 6-year-old and 4-year-old, and their friend next door, had a lemonade stand Sunday and baked brownies and sold them door-to-door Monday, raising an additional $30 for our family contribution to "the hurricane people," as my kids call them.

I'm especially proud of the little bastards!

Take care,
PK

[Brando70]

No I would not be singing another tune. Read my post again and tell me how many people did this seven pages on an internet site feed? That's energy spent in the wrong direction.

After everyone is OK and the cleanup is done you are all free to start spinning and finger pointing.

And yes I've seen many, as my parents live on the Gulf side in Florida.

I'm sorry, LS, but I completely disagree. If a building is on fire and the dipshit holding the hose can't turn it on, you kick him out of the way and start the water. You don't wait for the building to burn to the ground.

This isn't about politics. It's about competence. Like PK said, four years after 9/11, it is appalling that we looked like a goddamned banana republic responding to a disaster. This goes beyond finger pointing. Every American should be scared shitless because the bungling in NO probably gave giant boners to every asshole terrorist out there. Imagine what would happen if we didn't know a disaster was coming?

We created a Department for Homeland Security, we have a Federal Emergency Management Agency, we have federal authority over the troops, and the ruling national party is going to blame the state of Louisiana? What happened to steely eyed resolve? To sacking up at the federal level? To getting away from asking what "is" means? What really sucks is that the people who didn't vote for this arrogant, incompetent man are the ones who have suffered the most from his regime. This is a man who puts loyalty and submissiveness above all other traits from his staff. Because of that, we have the Horse Whisperer running a major disaster effort.

[laurenskye]

Our Gov. was never speedy. We have checks and balances for a reason. You don't start writing blank checks. Especially one in the billions. It will take time.

But right now a split country is the last thing we need. All this blame will do is create more red tape and make getting help there last longer.

Then we can make changes for the better.

[DivotMaker]

The horse needs to be beaten because this president created a billion-dollar, bureaucratic, Cabinet-level department four years ago for an efficient, effective Federal response to disasters like this, and it failed miserably in its first big crisis.

Plus the vacuum of leadership from this "crisis president" has been appalling. And already the White House has appointed Karl Rove in a campaign to shift responsibility from the White House to state and local governments, according to <b>REPUBLICAN</b> sources in a New York Times report:

>>>>>

EXCERPTS:

Under the command of President Bush’s two senior political advisers, the White House rolled out a plan this weekend to contain the political damage from the administration’s response to Hurricane Katrina.

It orchestrated visits by cabinet members to the region, leading up to an extraordinary return visit by Mr. Bush planned for Monday, … and sought to move the blame for the slow response to Louisiana state officials, according to Republicans familiar with the White House plan.

The effort is being directed by Mr. Bush’s chief political adviser, Karl Rove, and his communications director, Dan Bartlett. … In many ways, the unfolding public relations campaign reflects the style Mr. Rove has brought to the political campaigns he has run for Mr. Bush.

In a reflection of what has long been a hallmark of Mr. Rove's tough political style, the administration is also working to shift the blame away from the White House and toward officials of New Orleans and Louisiana who, as it happens, are Democrats.

FULL STORY:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/natio ... oref=login

<<<<<

Unbelievable. Up to 10,000 bodies are floating in New Orleans, and Karl Rove is playing the politics of partisan division with approval from Bush.

That's why this Administration is under the burning spotlight of scrutiny and should stay there while Katrina relief efforts continue. This White House has operated on hubris for much too long, and we're seeing the result unfold tragically before our very eyes in New Orleans, Gulfport, Biloxi and the surrounding areas.

Take care,
PK

I have lost the urge to continue to respond to this. We see things so very differently and I find that if were to continue posting in this thread that I will say some things I may regret later. I do not have enough time in the day to counter every point you make, but I feel comfortable that if I chose to do so, I could make some VERY compelling arguments against some of the things that you are saying as well as what the "objective, fair, and non-partisan" media is saying. However, I will simply agree to disagree and move away from this thread.

Good Day to you all,

Tim

[XXXIV]

Yep....but ya gotta know by now when this s*** turn to political agendas.....realism get FLUSHED!!!

Smart guy

[wco81]

After everyone is OK and the cleanup is done you are all free to start spinning and finger pointing.

It's suppose to take months to drain the water and then clean up the debris, not to mention toxic substances which are in the water and will be left in the residue.

By then, most people will have forgotten this and the heat will die down.