Rediscovering NFL 2K5, comparisons to Madden 06

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Rediscovering NFL 2K5, comparisons to Madden 06

Post by pk500 »

Boys:

Rented NFL 2K5 last night and gave it a four-hour spin. Yeah, played it for four hours straight.

That lengthy time doesn't mean I'm ga-ga over the game, though. It remains a very good game in many areas, but new slider settings can't fix the flaws that caused me to tire of it and sell it last December.

First, the things that NFL 2K5 does well, with numerous comparisons to Madden 06.

The presentation and graphics of NFL 2K5 are way ahead of Madden 06. 2K5 is a much more vibrant, crisp, "alive" game. All of the little overlays, cut scenes, pre- and post-game stuff just KILL Madden.

The audible system, in which you can scroll through a menu and actually see the audibles you're calling, is eons better than audibles in EA football.

The running game still is smooth and fluid, with no suction blocking. But I did have some quibbles with running that I'll describe later.

I didn't see many drops or super-human catches by my team. The passing game is very believable and seems realistic. I also like how you really need to know how many steps your QB is supposed to drop before throwing. There are no 20-yard dropbacks for bombs. That's something that Madden only introduced this year.

While Madden 06 has more pre- and post-snap options, the controls to orchestrate pre-snap stuff in NFL 2K5 felt much more intuitive to me than Madden's. Yes, I have more time into the 2K series than Madden over the last four or five years, but the control schemes for 2K5 were easier to grasp and seemed to be based more in common sense.

Now for my complaints with NFL 2K5, some old to veterans of the series and some that I discovered last night.

The defensive back AI is broken. Flat-out busted. There were at least three or four instances per game where I saw something wacky happen and said, "What the f*ck?" on a passing play. That did not happen this year in Madden 06.

I ran instant replay on a few of these "WTF?" moments, going frame by frame. In almost every instance, the defensive back or linebacker was in perfect coverage position, with his eyes following the ball, and inexplicably turned away or cut in the other direction, leaving the receiver wide open.

I used two different slider sets last night, with unedited rosters, and many variations of those sets to try and find a solution to the DB woes. I'm convinced there are none. This is just bad AI, hard coded into the game.

It's feast or famine with interceptions. At default levels, there are too many interceptions. But when you turn down the Interception slider to zero or single digits, defensive backs are dropping gift picks. Every DB and linebacker becomes Roberto "Hands of Stone" Duran when the interception slider is turned down. So either you're going to see a fairly high level of picks, one or two more than normal per QB, or hardly any at all. That's frustrating.

I also think the CPU gives up on the run too often and is a bit pass happy. Even running teams like Pittsburgh or Baltimore gave up on the run too often if I stuffed it on a few consecutive plays. This was more of a feel thing than statistically proven.

Maybe it was just me, but I dominated time of possession in every game I played, at a 2-to-1 ratio in some games. The CPU just doesn't seem to assemble many long, grinding drives in 2K5 at all. That was one of my delights in Madden 06 before I discovered the "giveaway glitch" -- CPU teams do crank out some nice, methodical, long drives.

Finally, NFL 2K5 is not a good game for someone like me who is recovering from carpal tunnel syndrome simply because you have to tap or pound the A button repeatedly to get a speed burst. My wrists and hands were a bit tweaked last night. Not good for me.

Now for the verdict between the two games: I only wish Madden 06 didn't have the "giveaway glitch," because I think it's a better game than ESPN NFL 2K5.

While playing 2K5, I missed the Truck Stick. I missed all of the pre-snap formations. I missed the quality DB play. I missed the grinding pace of the CPU offense on some drives. I missed CPU teams that would stay dedicated to the run. Madden 06 plays a more complete game of football and is more polished on the field than ESPN NFL 2K5.

So DAMN that glitch! :evil:

But I still don't feel like I wasted four hours of my night. ESPN NFL 2K5 still is a fun game, and it doesn't have a game-killing glitch. I probably will pick up NFL 2K5 for $8 used and use Chew's and Finn's global roster attribute edits, sliders and roster updates through Action Replay, which I'm finally getting through the fine deal offered to me by James_E. (Thanks again, Jamie!)

And this four-hour exercise finally has helped me pick my Grade A, mainstay football game for this year: NCAA 06.

<i>As a complete package</i>, I think NCAA 06 is the best football game on the market today. Madden is more polished and more sophisticated and has more realistic gameplay, but it's as dull as an Amish comedian. And I simply cannot deal with the "giveaway glitch." ESPN NFL 2K5 is fun, but its flaws remain.

NCAA 06 plays a very good game of football on the field, albeit a bit loose and a bit reliant on the long ball. But I had more fun playing NCAA 06 this year than Madden 06 or ESPN NFL 2K5 as a complete package, when factoring in atmosphere, gameplay quality, graphics, sound, new features and variety of outcomes.

I can't stress the variety of outcomes in NCAA 06 enough, especially with Jistic's sliders. I had defensive struggles in the rain. OT shootouts where both teams combined to hang up 85 points. Games were teams went off in passing. Games where teams ran the ball down my throat.

And I know this sounds gay, but I REALLY missed the mapping of the offensive jukes and defensive swim moves to the right stick, a great new feature in NCAA 06, when I played Madden 06 and ESPN NFL 2K5.

Of all the new features in the EA games this year -- Vision Cone, Truck Stick, Impact Players, etc. -- I really like the mapping of the jukes and defensive moves to the right stick. That has been the most intuitive, fun control feature implemented in a console football videogame for me in a few years.

And cutting to the core, NCAA 06 is the only one of the three football games that I've tried in the last six weeks that kept bringing me back to the Xbox. It had more of a "damn, I can't wait to play that game again" feel than either Madden 06 or NFL 2K5, although both of those games are very good.

So the bottom line after all of this fun and frivolity is that I found a lightly used copy of NCAA 06 for $32 last night on eBay and snapped it up. I can't wait to start a new Syracuse or Michigan dynasty and look forward to many fun nights of football gaming this fall and winter.

Thanks for hearing me out.

Take care,
PK
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Post by Spooky »

Nice post PK. A good read.
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Post by Dave »

PK, you nailed my frustrations with 2k5 last year. I just couldn't get over them. However, I might pick the game up and try the new rosters since it is so cheap now.

After you get NCAA 06 again, post some refreshed impressions. Playing a little last night, I struggled with the speed of the game and the drops, which hadn't bothered me until I spent time with Madden.
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Post by Slumberland »

I'm very curious about the global edit/slider solutions talked about over at OS. But that's just curiosity... I've never had the problem with the DB's that most people seem to have. I see my fair share of them over-aggressively going for the pick and taking themselves out of position, but for every time that happens I get two or three good knockdowns by my secondary. In short, it doesn't make me crazy, and it doesn't lead to an insane completion percentage for the CPU.

I do see different looks from the CPU offenses, depending on the team. Jacksonville was committed to the run in a game I played last night, racked up 67 yeards by the half.

My main problem with the game lies with an imbalance in breakaway speed... mainly that I have none, and the CPU seems to have too much. This could be the slider sets I've been playing with, though. Maybe the pursuit slider is involved.

The presentation truly is special. I love me some full-motion game highlights.
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Post by Boom »

After playing some ESPN NFL 2K5 again, there really are some things that I like a lot about it, and some stuff that drives me fuggin nutz.

Likes:
- running game
- play-action boot. This game replicates running the PA Boot with Jake Plummer perfectly (for the most part which I'll get into with the dislikes). No other game has ever come close to doing this as well as ESPN NFL 2K5.
- graphics / presentation
- passing game on offense
- it's, for the most part, a lot of fun

Dislikes:
- Crazy broke DB AI and trying to play controlling a DB. It's next to impossible

- Weird glitch stuff happening at times. I have a couple of running plays in the Broncos playbook that I cannot use out of the I-formation. I can't recall the name of the specific plays, but on one like a sweep right or something, my TE and the right side of my offensive line will immediately run to the left even though the play is designed to run to the right. Thus leaving me out there alone to get smashed for a good 3 or 4 yard loss. I have like 3 running plays that I cannot call due to stuff like this happening

- Sometimes when I run the PA Boot with The Snake, he'll setup to throw like he's Steve Young (a lefty) and then when I press the button pass, he'll instantly do a 180 and then throw the ball. Really crazy stuff here

- If a rb or receiver gets past the defense your better to let the computer control the people in pursuit because for whatever reason, they run faster than if you were to take control of them. I don't want to watch the game, I want to play it.

- QB Spy completely broke
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Post by RobVarak »

It's a statement in and of itself that the comparison's between a brand new Madden release and a year-old ESPN are even close. For my money, I also prefer ESPN 2k5 and I'd always been a Madden gamer before then so I'm pretty ecumenical on these things.
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Post by dbdynsty25 »

Boom wrote:- Sometimes when I run the PA Boot with The Snake, he'll setup to throw like he's Steve Young (a lefty) and then when I press the button pass, he'll instantly do a 180 and then throw the ball.
Well he does try to throw lefty in real life (and gets intercepted), so I guess they were going to mimmick him, but they eventually decided to just take it out.
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Post by Boom »

har har har
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Post by Jimmydeicide »

ecumenical ? Come on, give me a chance at least.
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Post by Leebo33 »

Jimmydeicide wrote:ecumenical ? Come on, give me a chance at least.
He's not a fanboy.
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Post by laurenskye »

The DB's are definately frustrating (I pulled this one out last night too).
Doesn't turning the equalize thing on supposed to help. I seem to remember that. And you do need sliders to help the cpu out with running and passing.
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Post by HipE »

I still have my copy of NFL 2K5, and I popped it in last night after all the talk about it here in the past week. I don't know exactly what it is about the game, but I just can't get into it after playing Madden and NCAA this year. I think the biggest problem for me is the stupid animations the dbs make after you take control of them, specifically how they take you out of the play more often than not. I'm also not a big fan of the player control in general, I have a lot harder time making plays on my own than I do in the EA games. I played a couple of seasons in NFL 2K5 last year before I got Madden 2005, but then I rarely touched it after that. After trying it last night, there is no way I'd be able to get into it this year regardless of the rosters available. That's okay though, I'm still loving NCAA 06, enough so that I don't even care if I play an NFL game this year.
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Post by 10spro »

In addition to PK's accurate overview of 2K5 , I wanted to add that though not built from the ground up, the graphics engine here is by far the best ever conceived in a football game. Every detail is simply well done here.

The bump-mapping used on the players gives the graphics additional depth and about 80% of the player faces are accurate. New animations have been added, although some have been used since the series' inaugural edition and probably should be retired. Also, the virtual Chris Berman and player interviews have no lip-synching whatsoever, but for a first time attempt, credit is still due in large. The game also runs in 480p so HDTV owners will definitely have the opportunity to appreciate the finer details.

Sound wise Peter O'Keefe and Dan Stevens are the best video game play-by-play guys in the business, but maybe it is time to introduce some real ESPN announcers to the series. To me they beat Al Michaels & Madden anytime. Regardless, these two color guys chat it off between plays, joke with each other, and call the game flawlessly, rarely falling behind. Just like MLB 06 for the PS2 this year. Sideline chatter is nice too, if only the announcer could say "Hey bring a patch for the AI coverage".
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Post by pk500 »

Very good points, Hip. The player control in EA football games is better than Sega's, period. And the player control in NCAA 06 is as responsive as in any football game I've played, one of the reasons why I'm siding with NCAA 06 as my primary football game this year.

But I think I will get ESPN NFL 2K5 for $8 used and try the Flying Finn-Nick Chew roster, schedule and player attributes updates, which are receiving raves at OS.

I also want to try MattK's rosters. Dude has worked too hard for his project to be ignored.

Take care,
PK
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Post by 10spro »

Tried to google for the Finn-nNck Chew roster and schechule to no avail. Anyone can provide that info?
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Post by pk500 »

10spro wrote:Tried to google for the Finn-nNck Chew roster and schechule to no avail. Anyone can provide that info?
Nick Chew's site: www.gamechewover.com

Flying Finn editor site: http://web.tampabay.rr.com/flyingfinn/roster.htm

Listen to my podcast, damn it! gamechewover.com was the Site of the Week this week. :)

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Post by AJColossal »

All good posts regarding NFL 2K5. I agree with most that was said here, especially regarding the db play. The dbs took me out out of too many plays, resulting in a lot of head-scratching tds for the CPU.

I also could never get the ints toned down, esp. for my defense. Setting the ints. at 0 resulted in your guys dropping more gimmes, but I would still see what seemed to be at least 2-3 a game, which was a bit too much for my tastes.

But the game was fun. I really enjoyed The Crib mode, and I thought it was cool checking out my trophies for setting various records in the game.
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Post by Bill_Abner »

Funny, I did this last week too. After a game it all flooded back what I loved and hated about that game. I HATE tapping the button to sprint. Nothing makes me feel like I am playing a souped up arcade game than that.

I hate that fast players (human controlled) cant catch up with slower CPU players and I hate the DB AI even with EQ On against the CPU.

I had a lot of fun with this game online, but I think it's time has passed for me. I still wish you could combine the two games, but I think we said the same thing last year.
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Post by Brando70 »

Bill_Abner wrote:I still wish you could combine the two games, but I think we said the same thing last year.
We say that every f***in year. :D
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Post by dbdynsty25 »

Brando70 wrote:
Bill_Abner wrote:I still wish you could combine the two games, but I think we said the same thing last year.
We say that every f***in year. :D
In every f*cking genre.
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Post by spooky157 »

Once in a while I'll see some wacky DB play but it is pretty rare. It might have something to do with the way I play defense. I only control the weakside LB and I'll never switch during a play. On passing plays I'll hold the Y button when the pass is in the air, which seems to make the closest DBs converge on the ball.

I agree with everyone that playing pass defense is more an exercise in frustration than anything else. Even while holding the R trigger to strafe the players seem to slip slide around way too much to play any effective pass defense.

I'm still having a lot of fun with this one though. I love the feel of the running game and the passing game is complex enough for a dexterity-challenged gamer like myself.
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Post by matthewk »

COuple of assists for you PK (and anyone else):

2k5 has a "truck stick", it's just called the Y button.

To get the CPU to have better drives I upped the CPU blocking and CPU running from 20 (midway) to at least 30. This does seem to help not only the running game, but longer drives as well.

I know we do not have a perfect NFL game, but I still choose 2k5 over Madden. I notice the DB AI a few tiems a game, but in the real NFL I see DBs do things that make me say WTF too (I watched Ahmad Carroll for 16 games last year). Madden is not without it's own issues. The glitch doesn't even bother me much, it's the suction blocking and turbo boosted DBs that annoy me. Oh, and seeing DL get knocked on their back every other play.
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Post by matthewk »

Oh a couple of more things:

The R-stick DOES JUKES in 2k5!!

To flip a play without cahnging the formation (ala Maddens playmaker control), press Y for an audible and then click the r-stick.
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Post by Inuyasha »

How do you run the ball in this game? Can someone give me tips?

Whenever I try to move the RB left or right, he seems to do some kind of little juke or something and gets stuffed. I am probably suffering from being too use to the running in madden.
Last edited by Inuyasha on Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Slumberland »

matthewk wrote:I notice the DB AI a few tiems a game, but in the real NFL I see DBs do things that make me say WTF too (I watched Ahmad Carroll for 16 games last year).
Yeah... it's rare enough when I play that I can chalk it up to "human" error.

I downloaded the gamechewover rosters, entered their sliders and started a makeshift 'season' mode with all the teams set to user control. Should be fun, as I can play whichever games I feel like and get a feel for the roster edits with all sorts of different matchups... evenly matched, lopsided, and so forth. I only played one game so far, Jets vs. Chiefs, and the passing numbers looked good. Both QB's threw for about 55% and 240 yards. Curtis Martin broke the century mark with an average YPC of 4.0, which is better than the 5.5 I usually seem to get in 2K5. I did hold Priest Holmes to about 40 yeard rushing though, and he's usually a monster. I was down 13-0 early but ended up winning 34-20. One thing I like about 2K5 is that I get a good sense of momentum shifts playing with 7 minute quarters... a lot of back and forth. As for the DB play, it's so hard to say if it seems improved with the gamechewover edits. Maybe in time it'll become clear, but it all seems so subjective. I still saw a couple brainfarts.
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