I'm done with EA Football

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:12 am

Good to agree with you, Danimal. I do think you've nailed the thought process of the suits at EA.

But remember, not all "suits" are the same (even though it sometimes seems that way) ... maybe that's one reason why I've always liked business entities like Pearl Jam and, to a lesser extent, Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream. Sometimes, there are ways to make great product without selling out to the man (or shareholder, as the case may be). Maybe VC would have become the same as EA if they ever did make it to the top, which might've been only a year or two away but for the exclusive license. Then again, maybe the same qualities that took them to the top (e.g., ridding video football forever of Mario Running, 30 yard drop back QBs and Suction Blocking) would have continued to lead them to put out even better and better products. Just a shame we may never know.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:30 am

GTHobbes wrote:Good to agree with you, Danimal. I do think you've nailed the thought process of the suits at EA.

But remember, not all "suits" are the same (even though it sometimes seems that way) ... maybe that's one reason why I've always liked business entities like Pearl Jam and, to a lesser extent, Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream. Sometimes, there are ways to make great product without selling out to the man (or shareholder, as the case may be). Maybe VC would have become the same as EA if they ever did make it to the top, which might've been only a year or two away but for the exclusive license. Then again, maybe the same qualities that took them to the top (e.g., ridding video football forever of Mario Running, 30 yard drop back QBs and Suction Blocking) would have continued to lead them to put out even better and better products. Just a shame we may never know.

Well put, you're right of course there are always exceptions to the norm. As for VC, yes it is a shame we will never know. I have a feeling if it was VC show to call they wouldn't have changed one bit.

Now Take Two on the other hand is a different story altogether. I personally thinkl Take Two wants to be the next EA so bad, they would all sell their first born's to get the job done. But that is just my opinion.

BTW we are all safe, I figured with GT and I agreeing twice in one day I should look out my window to see if there was a giant asteroid heading towards the earth.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:00 pm

Well, for those people that are getting tired of the EA monopoly and their same gameplay on football games, yada yada, I just read somewhere that the people that are behind NFL2K (VC) are working on getting their hands on retired football players, starring a bunch of Hall of Famers and planning on naming their future 2K games "Legends of Football". Of course retired players apparently don't belong any longer to the NFL license and that's what VC is after. Imagine getting the likes of Joe Montana, B. Sanders, any QB's worst nightmare: Jack Lambert etc. If they keep on improving their AI on defense and those secondary coverages, there's room for hope and joy after all. VC at least is doing something about those people tired of Madden.

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:07 pm

I still don't understand how 2K would be able to sign individual agreements with enough retired players to fill even a fictional league's worth of teams.

My ultimate dream for 2K football (that will never come true) involves fully customizable teams for online leagues, where you can dictate uniforms and player names. Everyone in the league would a fixed amount of attribute points to distribute throughout their team, so everyone shows up with wildly varied teams when it comes to tendencies and strengths, while still keeping things fair.

In reading that over it sounds like football D&D. How wonderfully nerd-tastic.

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:26 pm

I read about that in EGM and posted a couple of weeks back. To be honest, if it's true, I'm not sure what kind of defense EA will have against it. Let's say that VC/Take 2 releases "Jack Lambert Football" next year, using VC's classic football engine (with 1-2 years worth of additional tweaks). If broadband is the norm by next fall, or even if it isn't, downloadable rosters should be available within a day or so of release. If VC pays Mr. (Sir) Lambert $100k for the right to use his name/likeness in the game, and accurate, up-to-date NFL rosters are available to download from the internet within a day or so of release, how does EA compete with that?

Is there any law against making accurate, up-to-date NFL rosters available over the internet? If so, I don't see how EA could enforce it and, at the same time, allow/encourage its users to download rosters of college teams with NCAA. That's why I think that, if true, the rumor about VC's new game next year could be very interesting.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:42 pm

GTHobbes wrote:If VC pays Mr. (Sir) Lambert $100k for the right to use his name/likeness in the game, and accurate, up-to-date NFL rosters are available to download from the internet within a day or so of release, how does EA compete with that?

Easy, EA has the legit, out-of-the-box NFL license and the name everyone recognizes. Outside of places like this and OS, how many people do you know that go online to download rosters?

I'm just not feeling this "one or two years away from dominance" everyone else is feeling about the 2K series.

EA might not make hardcore gamers happy with their football games, but that isn't the mass market. Look at PK's post from the EA boards, that is the market snatching this game up by the millions.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:24 pm

Dave wrote:
GTHobbes wrote:If VC pays Mr. (Sir) Lambert $100k for the right to use his name/likeness in the game, and accurate, up-to-date NFL rosters are available to download from the internet within a day or so of release, how does EA compete with that?
Easy, EA has the legit, out-of-the-box NFL license and the name everyone recognizes. Outside of places like this and OS, how many people do you know that go online to download rosters?

Talk to the people standing in line for NCAA 2006 and you would be suprised how many people download rosters. Even more suprising are the amount of people who send off their memory cards for rosters.

Of course I do agree that the amount of people who would do this for a Pro roster (with Madden already available) would be a small % of the people I mention above.

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:31 pm

But if it worked at $19.99 once, what says it won't work again? Think about it. EA paid what, a billion dollars or something like that for the NFL and ESPN exclusive licenses over the next 5-8 years? What if VC pays a handful of NFL Legends $1 million or so to get their name/likeness?

While EA would be charging $49.99 (or $59.99-$69.99) for their new games, VC/Take 2 would seemingly be able to price their product at much, much less. Of course, it wouldn't mean anything if VC/Take 2 puts out a garbage product. But at $19.99, I'd buy a VC/Take 2 game where I personally could download rosters within a day or so of release. And I'd bet that a million or so other people would do so, too. I could always be wrong about that.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:38 pm

GTHobbes wrote:While EA would be charging $49.99 (or $59.99-$69.99) for their new games, VC/Take 2 would seemingly be able to price their product at much, much less. Of course, it wouldn't mean anything if VC/Take 2 puts out a garbage product.

Seemingly, they could charge less. What is Take 2's plans for their sports titles this year? Are they going for the $20 price point again? I hope so, since I enjoyed their NHL and NBA games.

I think Take 2 crapped the bed last year, I really do. Most of my videogaming friends (but not into it as much as we are) are almost exclusively franchise players, and that was an absolute trainwreck on ESPN.

bd, thanks for the input, that really surprises me. I do have to ask if you where and when you were picking up the game. And I agree that downloading rosters is probably a bigger part of the smaller NCAA market than the NFL crowd.

What was the last major sport released as a non-licensed game?

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:41 pm

At $19.99, big names or not, with a smooth gameplay engine as they always had, improve the AI on defense formations and I'll DL rosters anytime. Sold!

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:54 pm

bd, thanks for the input, that really surprises me. I do have to ask if you where and when you were picking up the game. And I agree that downloading rosters is probably a bigger part of the smaller NCAA market than the NFL crowd.

I did not get it at launch myself, just basing this on the time I spend in gamestores plus the time I worked for Gamespot. I am always suprised when names like Blacklover, FK and even that other guy whose name I prefer never to mention. OS gets brought up alot in those same lines waiting at the register. Sports gamers (especially those who buy at launch) are generally hardcore enough to know about things like rosters. Just like PC gamers are when it comes to mods for their games.

GTHobbes

I know you mean well but even at $19.99 last year VC got their tails handed to them with a FULLY LICENSED GAME. You know quite well that I am no fan of EA "the company" but I realize that there is no way you can compete in the Pro Football market without a license. Sure VC increased their sales and many Madden users gave the game a shot, but they also purchased Madden at the $49.99 price tag in far greater numbers. They have no problem buying at $49.99 and will be there in droves at $59.99. Most people are not going to go to the trouble of dealing with an unlicensed game/downloads/wait times to get rosters, etc, etc ----> when there is a solid product that includes those features already on the market.

If you need further evidence pull up the sales figures for Fifa, Fifa Street and Winning Eleven/Pro Evolution. As great as WE/PES is Fifa kills it in sales (excluding Japan) and even Fifa Street outsold it here in the US. Madden is a far superior game of American Football in comparison to what Fifa is to Soccer. WE even has the use of international teams and a few leagues, etc.

One game is made by EA and has all the leagues, licenses and features out the whazoo. The other has international teams and great gameplay and some great modes of play. Which one wins out every year? Plenty of downloads for WE on every platform to fix names, players, kits, etc.

Yes Konami is horrible at marketing their game and do not even take the time to answer questions from potential customers on their own forum. Yet even with Take 2 money and a budget game, history has proven Madden will easily overcome those odds.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:00 am

bdoughty wrote:Sure VC increased their sales and many Madden users gave the game a shot, but they also purchased Madden at the $49.99 price tag in far greater numbers.

In case you forgot, Madden was $29.99 shortly after release...maybe two weeks max.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:46 am

dbdynsty25 wrote:
bdoughty wrote:Sure VC increased their sales and many Madden users gave the game a shot, but they also purchased Madden at the $49.99 price tag in far greater numbers.
In case you forgot, Madden was $29.99 shortly after release...maybe two weeks max.

Yes I did forget about that but the game came out in August and the price drop did not happen until November. That would be 3 months after the release, which is just a tad over your two week max.

(URL on a search is too long so you have to copy/paste)

http://digitalsportspage.com/modules.ph ... highlight=
madden+price+drop&sid=48d3c4a228a191b6a501cd3159d963ec

I know through September Madden had sold 2.75 million copies to ESPN's 2 million based on a quick NPD search.

2,750,000 x $49.99 = $99,980,000

2,000,000 x $19.99 = $39,980,000

Throw in the sales for October and November and you are right around $150 million in sales to $50 million.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:53 am

Weren't you supposed to be "viewing" and not posting anyway...LOL. Touche DSPal, touche.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:09 am

dbdynsty25 wrote:Weren't you supposed to be "viewing" and not posting anyway...LOL. Touche DSPal, touche.

To be fair I quit privately this last time and just went back to talking back and forth with my buddy Jason. Getting another Xbox revived me so I broke promise #6,254 to myself about posting here.

I will play by the rules set forth upon me here at DSP and be on my best behavior. Since might not be good enough I have considered posting through an interpreter. Or as the state calls them "behavior modifiers".

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:20 am

I really don't want to get into this same old argument so I weill make my one post and let you rip it to shreads.

I really feel for everyone who is going to be missing the 2K series this year, but I can't see an unlicensed game selling well enough that it would even make it by the "suits" at a company. The only reason i think their is a chance for a new football game from TT / VC is that Take Two's ego is as big as EA's and they want to prove a point.

As for downlaodable rosters, the company could not host accurate rosters on their site and make them available for download, I think that would be a violation. Does OOTP host any one of the hundreds of accurate rosters for download on their sites? How could TT / VC make an interface in the game for downloading rosster off of a server they control and then make them have the real names etc and get away with it?

If you can't make it that easy to get the rosters then the avergae Joe will not find them, The average Joe is also not going to give a rats ass about fully customizable anything. While it is a dream project for you and me, Tommy Nutbag just wants to pop in the game and run around with Michael Vick.

So while i will miss the option of owning two different games, I just don't see what other people see on how a game like this could be succesful.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:32 am

Agree with Danimal 100 percent. Sometimes we forget that we are the hardcore exception of sports gaming, not the rule.

Take care,
PK

bdunn13 · Post by **bdunn13** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:41 am

"How could TT / VC make an interface in the game for downloading rosster off of a server they control and then make them have the real names etc and get away with it?"

They can't.

- and the average gamer is not going to go looking for some rosters. My bestfriend loves NCAA and Madden.. I give him the NCAA rosters every year b.c he has no clue how to get them, load them and he is 10x smarter than I am. He wanted them so bad this year he asked me to fed-ex them to him and he only lives 60 miles from me

On the same hand, I believe I read a few years ago only 1% or so of the gamers game online with consoles... that number might be a little higher now, but I bet that 1% is still pretty close to true for sports games.

BD

Bill_Abner · Post by **Bill_Abner** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:18 pm

Danimal wrote:I really don't want to get into this same old argument so I weill make my one post and let you rip it to shreads.

I really feel for everyone who is going to be missing the 2K series this year, but I can't see an unlicensed game selling well enough that it would even make it by the "suits" at a company. The only reason i think their is a chance for a new football game from TT / VC is that Take Two's ego is as big as EA's and they want to prove a point.

As for downlaodable rosters, the company could not host accurate rosters on their site and make them available for download, I think that would be a violation. Does OOTP host any one of the hundreds of accurate rosters for download on their sites? How could TT / VC make an interface in the game for downloading rosster off of a server they control and then make them have the real names etc and get away with it?

If you can't make it that easy to get the rosters then the avergae Joe will not find them, The average Joe is also not going to give a rats ass about fully customizable anything. While it is a dream project for you and me, Tommy Nutbag just wants to pop in the game and run around with Michael Vick.

So while i will miss the option of owning two different games, I just don't see what other people see on how a game like this could be succesful.

Isn't Sony pumping a lot of dough into Road to Sunday? That's about as fictional as you can get.

Can a fictional game come close to competing with Madden? No.

Can a fully licensed football game, sold at a regular price, compete with Madden? No. NFL2K couldn't until they dropped to $20, which is not a long term sales point, as T2 even said.

Can a fictional football game sell enough to warrant making it? I think so, yes. There's a huge, huge difference between going after Madden and going after a profit. Can a fictional football game, a well made kick ass fictional football game, one that generates a lot of buzz with gamers, sell as many units as say, NHL2K5? Without a doubt. Hockey games in this country are a popular as hockey is on TV. And yet the NHL series keeps plugging along just fine. It's just too easy to say "suits would never do this." Suits in this business do crazy s*** all the time, so let's not make the execs out to be more than what they are here.

Football is such a inconic and popular sport in this country that there is room in the marketplace for more than one NFL-style game, even if the other games don't have the license. They are going to lose the war with Madden regardless, so instead of making that the goal, just try to make a great game that makes a profit by pumping $$ into development rather than ponying up for the license and a cover star.

The big risk here is that the gameplay would have to be great -- signigficantly better than Madden, otherwise there's little reason to play it. But I don't think Madden's gameplay is so good that that goal is unattainable, either.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:37 pm

Good points, Bill. And Winning Eleven's limited license compared to FIFA shows that it is possible for a company to make a profit through superior gameplay.

But the gameplay gap between Winning Eleven and FIFA is enormous. FIFA is just a lousy game. Madden is not.

Sure, the Madden engine needs improvement, but I don't think it's nearly as crummy comparatively as the FIFA engine. So a developer would have to create nearly the perfect football sim for consoles for the WE-FIFA analogy to work here.

Considering Madden's position as the NFL gaming colossus, I'm not sure any developer has the stomach or wallet to do that. It truly would be a labor of love and little else.

Blitz- or Playmakers-style games have a niche for developers, big and small. I'm not sure that an unlicensed NFL game does.

But hey, what do I know?

Take care,
PK

laurenskye · Post by **laurenskye** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:39 pm

Didn't you guys buy Madden when Quarterback Club had the liscense?

I know I did.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:45 pm

I think 2K needs to make a High School football game!

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:31 pm

laurenskye wrote:Didn't you guys buy Madden when Quarterback Club had the liscense?

I know I did.

I did, but they had the NFLPA license, and not the NFL license. So the uniforms were generic, but the players were real and had real names.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:55 pm

Danimal wrote:I really don't want to get into this same old argument so I weill make my one post and let you rip it to shreads..

Ahhh, so you just want to get the arugment started

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:02 pm

We can all argue, predict, and analyze until we're blue in the balls...erm, face, but it won't make a difference. The reality for the near future is this: If you want to play with Alex Smith on the 49ers or Ronnie Brown on the Dolphins you've got (basically) 2 choices. You buy madden 2006 or you stick with 2k5 and downlaoded rosters.

This whole thing makes the demise of FPS Football even more sad. Back in 1998 (99 Football Pro) they had the perfect idea, but the worst execution. I remember spending days creating custom uniforms, logos, and field art. Had that game been done right and continued up to today, we'd be have the perfect pro football gaming kit waiting for us to use.

That game let you use ANY font for jerseys. You could use ANY .jpg for a logo. The customization options were virtually endless, and would allow 3rd party developers (ie. gamers) the ability to recreate the NFL without the game ever having a license.

Damn, I miss that series