OT - Nagasaki

[F308GTB]

Well, I'm back to Japan for another work trip. This time I'm getting a bit of a world tour of Japan and spending the first few days in Nagasaki. I got here on Sunday afternoon and had time to go to the Nagasaki bomb site and museum. Holy smokes does it make you think about the past. Very humbling and introspective experience. When you view some of the photos you're left speechless. When you see some of the artifacts, you're amazed - bones from a human hand fused with remnants of a glass bottle due to the immense heat (several thousand degrees), instantly carbonized organic materials, metal objects buckled from the blast wave, and more. Hopefully that was the second and last time such a bomb will ever be used.

One thing that really made me realize how much the world has changed were the statues in the Peace Park. There were 3 status in a row from countries that no longer exist - USSR, GDR (East Germany), and Czechoslovakia. We've seen a lot of change for the better in our lives.

It's sad to know that 70000+ lost their lives that day, but what even more shocking was when I realized how many lost their lives in last year's tsunami. Mother Nature packs a mean punch as well (which, by the way, I wish the best for the citizens of New Orleans and southern Louisiana and Mississippi).

Fortunately this city has rebounded over the years. It's turning out to be one of my favorite Japanese cities. Beautiful landscape and a relaxed citizenry. If you ever get the chance to visit here, jump on it. By the way, on the flight from Tokyo to Nagasaki I got a bird's eye view of Fuji-san from above. It was tremendous.

[davet010]

Well, I'm back to Japan for another work trip. This time I'm getting a bit of a world tour of Japan and spending the first few days in Nagasaki. I got here on Sunday afternoon and had time to go to the Nagasaki bomb site and museum. Holy smokes does it make you think about the past. Very humbling and introspective experience. When you view some of the photos you're left speechless. When you see some of the artifacts, you're amazed - bones from a human hand fused with remnants of a glass bottle due to the immense heat (several thousand degrees), instantly carbonized organic materials, metal objects buckled from the blast wave, and more. Hopefully that was the second and last time such a bomb will ever be used.

It's sad to know that 70000+ lost their lives that day.

Mainly makes me think about the estimated 2 million Chinese civilians murdered by the Japanese in the Manchurian War, the germ warfare experiments on live subjects in camp 731, the horrific treatment of Allied POWs and the fact that modelled on the taking of Saipan, the casualty total (combatants and civilians) for an invasion of the Japanese home islands would be in excess of 4 million.

That's what I think of everytime this anniversary comes round.

[pk500]

Mainly makes me think about the estimated 2 million Chinese civilians murdered by the Japanese in the Manchurian War, the germ warfare experiments on live subjects in camp 731, the horrific treatment of Allied POWs and the fact that modelled on the taking of Saipan, the casualty total (combatants and civilians) for an invasion of the Japanese home islands would be in excess of 4 million.

That's what I think of everytime this anniversary comes round.

Likewise. Truman absolutely did the right thing by authorizing the use of the bomb, for two reasons.

One, it spared millions of lives overall that would have been taken by an invasion of Japan. Two, it showed the world we better not use the motherf*cker ever again.

Still, considering the Japanese attacked the U.S. first and fought the U.S. for nearly four years in a horrific war that really did have implications about the survival of the free world unlike the current Middle East conflict, the maxim of "whatever means necessary" to end the war was certainly appropriate in my mind.

Take care,
PK

[Inuyasha]

Alot of people who argue we shouldn't have dropped nukes on them forget to realize there was a WAR going on then. Dropping the bombs saved numerous lives on both sides, and from a political standpoint, saved Japan from being divided up like North and South Korea since the Russians were ready to invade from the north and we from the south.

Also, as previously pointed out, Japan has really never apologized for the atrocities it made on other people like the Chinese (read the book The Rape Of Nanking) and Koreans. Most of the educational system in Japan doesn't even teach the reasons behind why the bombs were dropped. Pearl Harbor in most Japanese schools is taught as an afterthought.

I really like Japanese culture, Japanese people, and almost everything Japanese. But the only thing I wish they would do is stand up to the mistakes they made in the past instead of ignoring them in their own society.

[wco81]

I've heard that the claim that the bomb had to be used to save lives in an invasion is a matter of dispute.

Japan had been firebombed for a long time before the atom bombs were dropped. There were few if any industrial or military targets left to go after.

These were civilian targets and of course, some believe the bombs weren't dropped for Japan so much as the USSR.

Rather than scare off the USSR, it just started an arms race for the next 40-50 years, for which who knows how many trillions were spent.

[dbdynsty25]

Rather than scare off the USSR, it just started an arms race for the next 40-50 years, for which who knows how many trillions were spent.

Which we won so it was money well spent in my eyes.

[Inuyasha]

I've heard that the claim that the bomb had to be used to save lives in an invasion is a matter of dispute.

Japan had been firebombed for a long time before the atom bombs were dropped. There were few if any industrial or military targets left to go after.

.

If there was an invasion, there would be millions of lives lost. You have to remember, the Japanese people at that time were brainwashed by the emperor to believe he was god. If the emperor told all the citizens to fight us off,they would have to the death.

[wco81]

Rather than scare off the USSR, it just started an arms race for the next 40-50 years, for which who knows how many trillions were spent.

Which we won so it was money well spent in my eyes.

Not really over. There are thousands of nukes still out there, some of them in countries most people never heard of. Plus they're talking about developing new types of nuclear weapons.

The nuclear sword of Damocles still hangs.

[wco81]

If there was an invasion, there would be millions of lives lost. You have to remember, the Japanese people at that time were brainwashed by the emperor to believe he was god. If the emperor told all the citizens to fight us off,they would have to the death.

That is what some historians are disputing.

Now it could be that that is what Truman and other decision-makers believed at the time and some have uncovered evidence countering that.

I believed we had undisputed control over their airspace and pretty much wiped out their warmaking capability.

[Jared]

To take it back to the city of Nagasaki for a bit, I really like the city. It's very laid back compared to a lot of other Japanese cities that I've been to, and has an awesome landscape. I went to the A-Bomb museum there and it was humbling, regardless of whether you think the bomb should have been dropped or not. Though it was a bit odd...I was there by myself at the time and I think there was a field trip of 13-15 year olds there. I was the only American in the place (feeling a bit out of place and somber)...and as I'm looking at everything, these schoolgirls keep popping up trying to practice their English with me, and then running away. Kind of bizarre.

[Brando70]

If there was an invasion, there would be millions of lives lost. You have to remember, the Japanese people at that time were brainwashed by the emperor to believe he was god. If the emperor told all the citizens to fight us off,they would have to the death.

That is what some historians are disputing.

Now it could be that that is what Truman and other decision-makers believed at the time and some have uncovered evidence countering that.

I believed we had undisputed control over their airspace and pretty much wiped out their warmaking capability.

There were a lot of contemporaries -- including high-ranking members of the military at the time -- who believed the United States should not have been the first nation to use the A-bomb. Truman did not share this view, nor did Roosevelt, who I am almost positive would have used the bomb as well to compell the Japanese to surrender.

The amount of casualities that would have arisen from an invasion will always been in dispute. No one really knows. The real issue was unconditional surrender. Even after the Japanese were clearly driven back, they refused to accept the unconditional surrender doctrine, especially the removal of the emperor. That's what ultimately led to the bomb being dropped.

I am sure that the Truman administration was anxious to avoid the Soviets entering the Japanese theater, but I think the revisionist arguments that stress this as a primary motivator are very weak (like those of Gar Alperovitz).

[F308GTB]

Didn't intend to make it a debate on whether the bomb should have been dropped or not. But once you've been there, you realize just how much of an impact something like the bomb was. It's just sad that mankind can't get along. Lots of innocent Japanese lives lost that day, just as there were lives from all nations throughout history.

Jared, my feelings exactly on Nagasaki. I get the impression it's very laid back. Tokyo is pretty wound up, Nagoya is more blue collar but still bustles, Yokohama is on the move, and Nagasaki just kind of relaxes.

[fanatic]

Had the opportunity to visit the Bomb Museum in Hiroshima, and it also had a significant impact on me. Hard to imagine I was standing in a place that once looked like hell on earth.

About the U.S. use of the bomb. I had always heard the argument that the bomb likely saved hundreds of thousands of lives....It seemed very logical to me.

However, I've been reading a lot lately about how Japan was in REALLY bad shape at the time. Although they hadn't surrendered, their food supplies were basically nill and they were even contemplating such crazy ideas as making planes out of bamboo. Some say it was just a matter of time before they finally turned it in. U.S. planes were basically doing their bombing runs without any resistance and lost very little lives.

It's a tricky situation, because you are still dealing with a country (Japan) that was basically on the side of evil and had to be stopped. But we still shouldn't accept the argument that "the bomb saved lives" without a critical eye. We all know how powerful the media can be in skewing our perceptions of wartime situations.

[Jackdog]

Had the opportunity to visit the Bomb Museum in Hiroshima, and it also had a significant impact on me. Hard to imagine I was standing in a place that once looked like hell on earth.

About the U.S. use of the bomb. I had always heard the argument that the bomb likely saved hundreds of thousands of lives....It seemed very logical to me.

However, I've been reading a lot lately about how Japan was in REALLY bad shape at the time. Although they hadn't surrendered, their food supplies were basically nill and they were even contemplating such crazy ideas as making planes out of bamboo. Some say it was just a matter of time before they finally turned it in. U.S. planes were basically doing their bombing runs without any resistance and lost very little lives.

It's a tricky situation, because you are still dealing with a country (Japan) that was basically on the side of evil and had to be stopped. But we still shouldn't accept the argument that "the bomb saved lives" without a critical eye. We all know how powerful the media can be in skewing our perceptions of wartime situations.

Yep, Fox News was a b*tch in 1945.