OT: PC gamer converts

mixdj1 · Post by **mixdj1** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:09 am

Hey guys,
 
 Well, a little background first. I have been gaming since Wizardry I on the Apple II. I´ve owned countless computers starting with a Timex Sinclair 1000 and moving up through the likes of the Tandy Color Computer, Commodore 64, Atari 1040st, Commodore Amiga, and numerous DOS/Windows boxes. My current rig is a P4 2.53Ghz w/512MB RDRAM, GeForce 4 Ti4200, Audigy 2, 120GB HD. I´ve owned some sort of a console since the SNES/Genesis days but that was mainly just for when friends were over because I really considered myself a PC gamer. Well, that has now changed.
 
 Now that I´m a little older and don´t have the free time that I used to have I felt I needed to trim back my gaming a bit. Naturally because of my background I thought the PC was where I was going to spend my gaming time. But because of some hassles lately (trying to get Raven Shield running at a LAN, video driver issues with some games, and a little repetitive stress starting to kick in) I decided to really look at my options. So I decided to build a list of games that were coming out in the next year or so that I wanted to play on PC and Xbox. The result was a shock to me:
 
 PC:
 Battlefield: Vietnam
 Call of Duty
 Doom III (eventually on Xbox)
 Dungeon Siege 2
 Half-life 2 (eventually on Xbox)
 Stalker: Oblivion Lost
 Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines
 
 XBOX:
 Baldur´s Gate: Dark Alliance II
 Batman: Rise of Sin Tzu
 Battlestar Galactica
 Breakdown
 Colin McRae 4
 Counter-Strike
 Crimson Skies
 D & D Heroes
 Dead Man´s Hand
 Dead or Alive: Online
 Deus Ex: Invisible War
 Driver 3
 Fable
 Full Spectrum Warrior
 Gladius
 Grabbed by the Ghoulies
 Grand Theft Auto: Double Pack
 Halo 2
 Hunter The Reckoning: Redeemer
 I-Ninja
 Jade Empire
 Jedi Academy
 Kill Switch
 Legacy of Kain: Defiance
 Links
 LOTR: Return of the King
 Magic the Gathering: Battlegrounds
 Max Payne 2
 Medal of Honor: Rising Sun
 Metal Arms
 Midway Arcade Treasures
 Morrowind: Game of the Year
 NASCAR Thunder 2004
 Need for Speed: Underground
 Ninja Gaiden
 Phantom Dust
 Prince of Persia
 Project Gotham 2
 Rainbox Six III
 Rallisport Challenge 2
 Secret Weapons Over Normandy
 Spawn
 Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow
 Starcraft: Ghost
 SWAT
 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
 Thief 3
 Top Spin
 Unreal II
 Voodoo Vince
 Wrath Unleashed
 XIII
 
 After looking at those lists I´ve decided it´s time to quit dumping cash into PC upgrades. I´ll play what I can on the hardware that I´ve got but it just makes a lot more sense to spend my time with the good old black box. I feel a little bit like I´m betraying my PC roots (I´m an IT Manager too!) and going "mass market" but I´m sure the fun I´m going to have will get me over that pretty quick. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 Well, sorry for the long post but I thought some of you might be able to relate or just have a good laugh at how pathetic I am for putting this much effort into making this decision. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_biggrin.gif">
 
 mixdj1 [ This message was edited by: mixdj1 on 02-10-2003 08:11 ]

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:17 am

Well, it´s a bit of a tilted list in that many games you put on the xbox list are also showing up on PC...
 
 I´ve always been a console gamer first, but some genres (on the whole, allowing for individual exceptions) are better on the PC...especially FPS´s. You have a lot of those on your list, and I´m surprised to see you taking the Xbox versions of those over their PC counterparts.
 
 ...of course, you could be accounting for that repetitive stress, and I understand that!
 <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 In my case, I just can´t see doing sports gaming on the pc. For example, I´m enjoying NHL 2004 on Xbox, yet I´ve heard (and believe, damn EA thinking console owners are idiots) that the pc version is better.
 
 I just won´t give up my couch-slumping, beer-drinking, cheeto-eating posture preference for a seat at my computer desk!
 
 [ This message was edited by: webdanzer on 02-10-2003 08:20 ] [ This message was edited by: webdanzer on 02-10-2003 08:21 ]

mixdj1 · Post by **mixdj1** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:21 am

Yeah, there are several PC titles in the Xbox list. But what I was trying to determine was if I could do without my expensive PC gaming habit. Therefore if a title was coming out in about the same time frame for the Xbox I put it on that list. I do love the precision of mouse/keyboard in FPS but I´m not one of the typical guys from our LANs that claim FPS on a gamepad is unplayable. Plus the new reticle style in Rainbow Six III for Xbox really helps to elminate some of those issues.
 
 Yeah, and if you´re talking sports games it´s no contest. The consoles have a much better selection and I prefer the gamepad for sports games (well, except for driving games - I love my wheel for my PC, especially for Grand Prix Legends and the Papy NASCAR series).
 
 mixdj1 [ This message was edited by: mixdj1 on 02-10-2003 08:25 ]

mixdj1 · Post by **mixdj1** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:30 am

Webdanzer,
 
 Your EA comment hits on one of my few regrets. A lot of titles do seem to get "dumbed down" for the consoles. I consider myself hard core and like as much realism as possible and the watering down of racing games in particular (my favorite genre) bothers me. Rainbow Six 3 is another example. The Xbox version added a health bar so you don´t have the tension of knowing that one well placed shot by the AI is going to take you out. But since you can´t aim & fire as quickly with a gamepad I guess they had to make that kind of change. I just wish they would give us the option in most games to enable the same type of realism they offer on the PC.
 
 mixdj1

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 1:08 am

Good post mix! Very interesting.....
 
 Of course, it all depends on your preferences, genres, etc. like web point out.
 
 What´s funny is that I have been trying to consolidate my gaming as well, and I have come to the exact opposite conclusion.
 
 I am definitely going to sell one of my consoles(probably Xbox), and quite possibly both Xbox and PS2.
 
 My main gaming focus goes as follows:
 1) Racing Sims
 2) First Person Shooters
 3) Real Time Strategy
 4) All other Sports titles
 
 For the top 3 there is virtually no contest that the PC rules all over the consoles, and I cannot see that changing in the distant future.
 
 PC games are cheaper, have more flexibility (mod communities, add-ons, etc), and are usually more sim oriented.
 
 Very true the installation/driver hassles can be a pain, and keeping up with the joneses is no fun, but I have a pretty mid-range PC by todays standards and it still plays games like Nascar Racing 2003, Tiger Woods 2004, F1 Challenge, Rainbow 6 III, etc. at much better resolutions and frame rates than any of the consoles.
 
 I finally narrowed it down to 2 things for the consoles:
 
 1) NCAA 2004 Football for PS2 - No college football exists for PC and proably will not in the future. I love the college game, and NCAA 2004 online is a great PS2 only title.
 
 2) WE6 for PS2 and supposedly WE7 on its way. FIFA is really the only option for the PC, unless this years version is drastically improved. Supposedly, Konami will be releasing soccer on the PC as well (I think the version is yet to be determined), so this could be a mute point. Especially if a great mod community shows up. Can you imagine what the PC mod community could do?
 
 I found that there is really nothing on the horizon for the Xbox that interests me in the least. Emphasis on ME. I am not saying that there are not some great titles on the way. Its just the ones I am interested in will be much better served on the PC.
 
 I have not quite pulled the trigger, but I now have my Xbox and PS2 libraries down to less than 5 games each from 20+.
 
 Also, for the first time ever I am not in the least bit interested in the Pro football games on the consoles this year, nor the console hockey games. I may actually end up with the PC version of NHL 2004 after vowing to never buy the PC version of that game again a few years back. [ This message was edited by: DChaps on 02-10-2003 22:10 ]

mixdj1 · Post by **mixdj1** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 9:31 am

Don:
 
 I´m really glad now I posted this thread. Between your post, web´s post, some input from my LAN gaming buddies, and a dreadful night with the new Xbox magazine demo I´m beginning to change my tune. I definitely agree with all your points about PC games. Plus one of my buddies pointed out that if I take 4 of the xbox games off the list (which I wouldn´t have enough time to play all of those anyway) I would have enough to put an ATI 9600 Pro XT in my current box.
 
 Last night I picked up the new Xbox demo disc all ready to try out some of the stuff I was planning to pick up in the next few months and was sadly disappointed. In Freedom Fighters I couldn´t hit the broad side of a barn with the xbox controller. Conflict: Desert Storm II didn´t control much better. And Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, although very beautiful, frustrated me to no end with it´s glitchy camera and cheap platform jumping deaths. I ended up going to bed wishing that I had spent the last hour playing Raven Shield or running some laps at the Ring in GPL. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_frown.gif">
 
 My fiance is just glad I´m not as fickle about women as I am about my hobbies. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_biggrin.gif">
 
 mixdj1

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 10:25 am

I didn´t particularly care for the aiming in Rainbow Six Three from the xbox demo, which I tried last night. Dual sticks simply can´t compare, although the consoles have gone a long way to try.
 
 It seems very much ´dumbed down,´ and that is a very hard feeling for me to shake with console FPS´s.
 
 I´m late to PC gaming, but it a way it is great because I am getting to play all of the great FPS´s from the past at once, and I´ve bought a ton of games for under $20...even under $10.
 
 (Got both NOLF games for $20 combined, some of the best gaming enjoyment I´ve ever had. And bring back Looking Glass Studios!!! (Thief, System shock) )
 
 I´m also one of those nearly-extinct fans of flight sims and space sims, and consoles can´t even come close to what is on the pc.
 
 But I do need that *chill* time away from the pc (I´m at one all day as well.) so I´m glad console games have enough for me to spend some quality time on the couch.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:12 am

My recent gaming history:
 
 ´95-´98 -- PSX, mostly sports, mostly GameDay multiplayer.
 
 ´98-´02 -- PC, mostly Madden online and Age of Empires online.
 
 ´00-Present -- First couple of years, rented some random singleplayer games (some memorable ones like Ico) and then really started using my PS2 when it went online last August with Madden 2003, SOCOM and a few other online games.
 
 My PC is about 5 years old. I´ve added RAM (from 64 to 224 MB) and changed my video card from an 8 MB Voodoo 2 to a 64 MB GeForce 2 MX 400 a couple of years ago. I didn´t touch the 350 Mhz Pentium II processor or upgrade the 8 GB hard disk, which is almost full.
 
 I was looking at a new PC a few months back because of new RTS games like Age of Mythology and Command and Conquer Generals as well as games like Battlefield -- never was interested or tried any of the FPS games.
 
 But I tried Age of Mythology, which ran okay on my PC but I didn´t like it any better than 4-year old Age of Empires II. In fact, liked it less and there were plenty of AOE2 games to be found on the zone. Didn´t get into Starcraft or WC3 either.
 
 The main genres I´d be interested in are sports games and maybe RTS. The main sports genre I´m interested in is football, where Madden is the only choice on the PC. Tiburon is using the same code base so the gameplay isn´t going to be better on the Madden PC version. Sure it will look better on a nice monitor but for online sports gaming, there´s not a bigger community than Madden PS2. But I also enjoyed NCAA online and am getting into ESPN NFL with the PS2 online leagues (automated stat tracking).
 
 I will eventually buy a new laptop and play the occasional game on it but unless a new RTS game comes along and really grabs me, I don´t see myself really pursuing PC gaming.
 
 There are some nice PC sports games like Tiger Woods (using the mouse, which there is absolutely no reason why console games can´t support if the developers wanted to) but really, online sports gaming on the console is the future, if not the present. Main thing consoles need is local storage and enough RAM so that you can have multiplayer online sports games (4-player games from 4 different locations with VOIP support).
 
 This is where the next generation of consoles could really slam the door shut on PC sports gaming. If they come with hard drives, built-in networking, HDTV support and enough horsepower (CPU and RAM), then there will be very little the PC sports games could offer other than niche categories like racing.

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:56 am

"then there will be very little the PC sports games could offer other than niche categories like racing."
 
 Mods baby, mods... No console now or in the near future will have the upgradability and longevity of free mods and add-ons that PC´s provide. Sure, with hard drives, it "could" be possible, but they won´t do it as has been proven by MS and Sony so far.
 
 I have three PC games that I still play on a relatively frequent basis, and they are all 5 years old. The reason I can still play these games is because of that flexibility. I really do not think consoles will ever have that.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:59 am

First let me say that this is a very cool post.
 
 Over the years I have wrestled back and forth between consoles and PCs for gaming. I think I have now finally settled in to how my gaming will be done.
 
 I have a PII 450mhz that is 5 years old now. A few years ago I added memory and a new video card to try and keep up as best I could without buying a whole new PC.
 
 Today I only use my PC for Nascar Heat, HH2001, golf games and Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds. Everything else is done on either my PS2 or Xbox.
 
 For the rest of my PC needs outside of gaming, my 450 still does it´s job. I´d like to have a more powerful one for editing/ripping music, but other than that I´m satisfied. Looking back, I´m glad I jumped off the upgrade treadmill of getting a new PC every 2-3 years, and in betwwen upgrading video cards, memory, hard drive, gamepads, etc...
 
 I have a 2-year old steering wheel for my PS2 that is just as much fun as using it on the PC. The Xbox has awesome graphics, so much so that I don´t miss the PC versions of any games.
 
 The current console versions of games are getting deeper every year, so much so that they are closing the gap with PCs in terms of customization. I spent hours nistalling and creating customized cars, players, jerseys, etc.. for PC games like Front Page Football, Papys Nascar, High Heat, and so on. This year I can play a fully accurate 80s team tournament on the Xbox with Madden. I can create 64 new wrestlers with WWE Raw2. High Heat even allows a great deal of editing to create a historical season on the Xbox. With this and an Action Replay the Xbox has almost closed the dorr on the PCs biggest advantage: customization.
 
 I think PC games are going to continue to fall further off the radar of the general gaming community. Consoles now allow for high customization, file sharing via AR devices, and high-end graphics. Add to that the elimination of all the installation problems and the ability to play on a large screen while sitting on the couch, and PC gaming is in trouble, at least in my world.
 
 -Matt

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 1:25 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2003-10-03 08:56, DChaps wrote:
 "then there will be very little the PC sports games could offer other than niche categories like racing."
 
 Mods baby, mods... No console now or in the near future will have the upgradability and longevity of free mods and add-ons that PC´s provide. Sure, with hard drives, it "could" be possible, but they won´t do it as has been proven by MS and Sony so far.
 
 I have three PC games that I still play on a relatively frequent basis, and they are all 5 years old. The reason I can still play these games is because of that flexibility. I really do not think consoles will ever have that.
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 The things needed to enable mods could be easily suported in consoles, if not now, then in future designs. It would just require a web browser and some other communications software like email or IM.
 
 But you´re right, Sony and MS probably won´t support it. They hate the hackers and mod chippers already and anything that gives consoles flexibility may be seen as giving these enthusiasts more weapons to enable piracy and other "unauthorized" uses of consoles.
 
 Plus, the casual gamers which make up the bulk of the mass market which drives console sales into the tens or hundreds of millions of units are probably not interested in mods. Or real depth for that matter.
 
 What they do care about are graphics and features and in these metrics, the consoles will inevitably catch up. If new consoles support HDTV resolutions like 1280x720 or 1920x1080, then the PC will have a hard time trumping console graphics.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 2:11 pm

Well, I´m slowly coming back into the fold of PC gaming. Last year, decided to upgrade from my old PII 400Mhz computer, so managed to grab a P4 2.0 Ghz machine. I´ve since thrown in an ATI 9600 Pro card, an M-Audio Revolution sound card, and the Klipch 2.1 speakers (I listen to a lot of music on my home PC)
 
 So far, I haven´t done a huge amount of gaming -- been playing Medieval Total War mostly. But I have a copy of Tiger Woods on the way and am salivating over Half-Life 2, which was the real motivation for the upgrade. Call to Duty or whatever the name is of that Activision FPS game is also looks pretty sweet.
 
 The real problem these days is there isn´t one obvious solution for gaming, so fools like me are easily parted with their money across multiple platforms <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_biggrin.gif">

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:32 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>.....The Xbox has awesome graphics, so much so that I don´t miss the PC versions of any games.....
 
 With this and an Action Replay the Xbox has almost closed the dorr on the PCs biggest advantage: customization.....
 
 Consoles now allow for high customization, file sharing via AR devices, and high-end graphics.
 
 Add to that the elimination of all the installation problems and the ability to play on a large screen while sitting on the couch, and PC gaming is in trouble, at least in my world.
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Good points Matt, but I vehemently disagree with all these statements. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif"> Well, except for the installation problems. However, you do point out the key which is "in my world".
 
 On my old school 32 in TV, no Xbox games comes even REMOTELY close to the graphics on my PC. I am sure if I had a bigscreen HDTV Widescreen component video TV with all the trimmings, AND an Xbox game that supports these expanded resolutions, then maybe I would see it differently.
 
 However, for me, it would cost more to get that upgraded big screen TV, then it would be to buy a whole new processor, memory, and graphics card upgrade for my PC. Not to mention, my house and lifestyle will not support an upgraded TV. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 As for cross-platform issues, the PC versions of all the Tom Clancy games (Ghost Recon, Splinter Cell, Rainbox 6) are all 1000 times better on the PC than on the XBox. And not just graphics. Features, online, control, expandability, etc., etc. There is not one single FPS on Xbox that is not inferior to the PC now that Halo is out on the PC.
 
 Racing games its not even a contest. The Xbox is a very poor racing console, even PS2 is better in quality, functionality, etc. Only racing game plus for Xbox is MotoGP2 (and a good game it is).
 
 While PS2 and Xbox are both now able to have some customization and file sharing (through 3rd party peripherals like Action Reply or Sharkport), it is not as easy, intuitive, or feature rich as what can be done on a PC connected to the internet. It SHOULD be, but MS and Sony have both dropped the ball completely in that regard. The consoles have made a small step towards this, but they are still a long way off from what the PC´s can do.
 
 Where consoles win out over PC the most is in the traditional stick and ball sports and the Extreme sports games. Hands down consoles rule this area outside of Golf, and to a lessor extent baseball. However with High Heat dying out, this may go to the consoles now as well. The number of choices in this area over the PC also makes consoles the clear winner here.
 
 Strangely enough for me though, I am starting to care less and less about traditional stick and ball sports (both in gaming and in real life). Like I said before, the only reason I even play my consoles anymore is for NCAA 2004 and WE6.
 
 So for me personally, this no longer weighs in as a big factor. But yeah I realize I am an old dude who is now more into niche areas of gaming, so the average gamer would clearly not be served well by ditching their consoles for PC only.
 
 However, for FPS, RPG´s, RTS, Racing Sims, Flight Sims, and Space Sims, the PC still rules these genres and the consoles have a LONG LONG way to go in these areas.
 
 Also, already said it but price of games is a big selling point for PC´s compared to consoles right now.
 
 I think the most expensive PC game I purchased all year was for $34.99. Titles get reduced very quickly as well, for example, the excellent F1 Challenge 1999-2002 is only $19.99. Its highly inferior PS2 cousin is still $39.99 at Best Buy. [ This message was edited by: DChaps on 03-10-2003 12:56 ]

mixdj1 · Post by **mixdj1** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:39 pm

Wow, I really didn´t expect to spark this much debate with this thread. And I really didn´t expect people to be changing my mind about my decision. Thanks Don (and others) for reminding me why I´ve always been a PC gamer. Seeing as my gaming tastes run right in line with yours I guess it would be a bit silly to give up my PC gaming habit.
 
 mixdj1

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:10 pm

Heh, and pretty cool that it is nice civil debate with information that people can then use to make their own decisions based on personal preference.