OT: Sports gaming

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:41 pm

Kazuya wrote:
bdoughty wrote:
Tim Duncan was and will be the last great college basketball player ever.
Well I could roll off a list longer then this website could handle the transfer load. First off you do not have to play 4 years AND THEN go to the NBA to be considered a great COLLEGE basketball player. If that was the case the please explain Gonzaga's success.

As for someone after Duncan who played 4 years Shane Battier pops into my mind. I could name my share of those also.

Absolutely no talent at all, just a bunch of mediocre players squaring off each other that I could probably give a good run (definitely when I was 20 and in good shape).

Please do not try to insult a college basketball fans intelligence with this hogwash. When you were 20 and in good shape you probably could not hang with many of the female college basketball players.
Shane Battier was not a great college basketball player. Great college basketball players: Lew Alcindor, Bill Walton, Akeem Olajuuwon, James Worthy, Oscar Robertson, etc.

Anytime you want to make the trip down (or is it up?) you can test me. I'll even let you pick the court. Bring your Jordans.

Well you said Tim Duncan so I assumed you meant anyone that made the cover of EA's March Madness (is that not greatness personified)? I am ot a Duke fan other then the coach and would disagree with you on Battier.

You made the claim to greatness on the court. You head down to Lubbock and I will get you into Untied Spirit Area. After beating you I can hook you up in a one on one match with Erin Grant. She is only 5'8 but would gladly spot you a few points in a game to 10. Heck let me get Bobby Knight to ref the game so you can tell him just how bad college basketball is.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:44 pm

pk500 wrote:
Kazuya wrote:Absolutely no talent at all, just a bunch of mediocre players squaring off each other that I could probably give a good run (definitely when I was 20 and in good shape).
Kaz:

Just curious: Where and when did you play D-I ball as a scholarship player?

Take care,
PK

I didn't. I was probably just under the skill level required (too short for shooting guard at 6'3" and not cut out to be a point) for Division I and besides baseball was my sport. I could have played junior college basketball without a doubt, and had offers.

I have played against many local pro and college players (Spud Webb, Larry Johnson, Jason and Jeryl Sasser to name a few) and when I was playing every day I could hang. Didn't say I was better... just that I could play with them.

But since really this has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make about college hoops I am going to just retract my statement. Figures people would jump on this statement and ignore everything else. So for the record, I am not and have never been in the class of even the worst college basketball player in the history of the NCAA.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:48 pm

When did 6'3 become to short to be a shooting guard in college basketball? Oh and if you could hang with the Sasser kids then you should have had a D-I scholarship.

Sorry don't buy it.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:52 pm

bdoughty wrote:
Kazuya wrote:
bdoughty wrote: Well I could roll off a list longer then this website could handle the transfer load. First off you do not have to play 4 years AND THEN go to the NBA to be considered a great COLLEGE basketball player. If that was the case the please explain Gonzaga's success.

As for someone after Duncan who played 4 years Shane Battier pops into my mind. I could name my share of those also.

Please do not try to insult a college basketball fans intelligence with this hogwash. When you were 20 and in good shape you probably could not hang with many of the female college basketball players.
Shane Battier was not a great college basketball player. Great college basketball players: Lew Alcindor, Bill Walton, Akeem Olajuuwon, James Worthy, Oscar Robertson, etc.

Anytime you want to make the trip down (or is it up?) you can test me. I'll even let you pick the court. Bring your Jordans.

Well you said Tim Duncan so I assumed you meant anyone that made the cover of EA's March Madness (is that not greatness personified)? I am ot a Duke fan other then the coach and would disagree with you on Battier.

You made the claim to greatness on the court. You head down to Lubbock and I will get you into Untied Spirit Area. After beating you I can hook you up in a one on one match with Erin Grant. She is only 5'8 but would gladly spot you a few points in a game to 10. Heck let me get Bobby Knight to ref the game so you can tell him just how bad college basketball is.

Actually, in all seriousness I have pondered if there is a woman alive who could beat me in a game of 1 on 1. Don't get me wrong, there are women players who would obliterate me in a game of horse or any other skill contest. But could the natural advantage of being a man be overcome?

First of all, few of them are taller than me and the ones who are are not athletic enough to guard me. Plus, I'm stronger than all of them and much faster.

Now, I know there is no way I could cover Sheryl Swoopes. But having said that, how is she gonna cover me giving up half a foot? At the end of the day I would get better looks than she would.

But it's an interesting question I've pondered for years. I've actually played with some lesser WNBA players (so lesser I didn't know they were in the WNBA untill after the fact, just that they were damn good) in some rec centers in N. Dallas. One thing that stood out was that they had remarkable stamina compared to everyone else. But I didn't see how they could beat me in a 1 on 1.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:53 pm

Kazuya wrote:(too short for shooting guard at 6'3" and not cut out to be a point)

Hmm ... Gerry McNamara helped lead Syracuse to the NCAA title in 2003 as a 6-2 freshman shooting guard. And as my pleasant memories never will let me forget, he did a pretty good job of torching Kansas in the final despite being only 6-2.

Sorry your lack of height was the only thing that prevented you from achieving similar greatness even though you're an inch taller than G-Mac.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:55 pm

See, that's the point, Kaz. There's more to excelling in the college game -- and the pro game, for that matter -- than mad 1-on-1 skills. If 1-on-1 skills were the ticket to NCAA and NBA stardom, then every member of the And 1 Street Team would be at major Division I programs and the NBA right now.

So beating a woman or man in 1-on-1 doesn't mean you're a better player. Hardly.

Take care,
PK

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:57 pm

I'm on Kaz' side on this one.

You guys named a few players that have played 4 years, PK in particular.

Jameer Nelson - his knock...too small to play the point or sg in the NBA. No way he would have gotten drafted in 2003. Only the run St. Joes made in the tourney got him into the NBA.

Hakeem Warrick - Syracuse guy who can jump out of the gym, but that's it. He likely wouldn't get drafted either if he had come out early. We'll see if he gets drafted at all...he doesn't have any touch...he's just a jumping machine.

Shane Battier - Probably the best of the group. Can do pretty much everything adequately on the floor. He's a decent pro only because he stayed with the Rat, Coach K at Duke for 4 years.

Okefor...has yet to be determined. Very good college player...will probably get owned for a few years in the NBA due to the fact that he's not as polished as a guy like Duncan was coming out of Wake.

The list above is fairly pathetic...if that's the best college basketball has to offer the NBA then it's in serious trouble. That's the point Kaz is trying to make. 4 year college guys stay because they HAVE to, not because they want to better themselves, a la Duncan and Battier.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:58 pm

bdoughty wrote:When did 6'3 become to short to be a shooting guard in college basketball? Oh and if you could hang with the Sasser kids then you should have had a D-I scholarship.

Sorry don't buy it.

You don't have to "buy" it. You act like there is some huge divide between the guys who get scholarships and the guys who are just good high school players. Usually, that divide is simply height. There are some incredibly skilled basketball players in this country that were simply a bit too short to move on (note: I am *not* saying I am one of them). If the Hoop it Up came to that hillbilly town of yours, you would know that.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:59 pm

DB:

I agree. But I didn't bring up those four players as an example of the dwindling talent pool in college hoop. I brought it up as an example of four players who Kaz couldn't beat in 1-on-1.

Regardless of the dwindling talent pool, I like college basketball better than the NBA because I prefer the style of play, enjoy the rivalries more and relish the Tournament. It doesn't hurt that I'm nearly a lifelong resident of Syracuse, either, where college hoop borders on religion.

Are the NBA players the best in the world? No doubt. Is NBA basketball the most advanced form of the sport? That's questionable, as our NBA players sure got smoked in the Olympics. But it's on a higher level than the college game, definitely. A group of college players probably would have been destroyed at the Olympics.

I just prefer the college game, its atmosphere and its postseason tournament.

Take care,
PK

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:59 pm

Now, I know there is no way I could cover Sheryl Swoopes. But having said that, how is she gonna cover me giving up half a foot? At the end of the day I would get better looks than she would.

But it's an interesting question I've pondered for years. I've actually played with some lesser WNBA players (so lesser I didn't know they were in the WNBA untill after the fact, just that they were damn good) in some rec centers in N. Dallas. One thing that stood out was that they had remarkable stamina compared to everyone else. But I didn't see how they could beat me in a 1 on 1.

It's like talking to Bobby Riggs, only he had the balls to back up his talk and then subsquently losing his testies by getting his arse smacked around the tennis court.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:03 pm

bdoughty wrote:
Now, I know there is no way I could cover Sheryl Swoopes. But having said that, how is she gonna cover me giving up half a foot? At the end of the day I would get better looks than she would.

But it's an interesting question I've pondered for years. I've actually played with some lesser WNBA players (so lesser I didn't know they were in the WNBA untill after the fact, just that they were damn good) in some rec centers in N. Dallas. One thing that stood out was that they had remarkable stamina compared to everyone else. But I didn't see how they could beat me in a 1 on 1.

It's like talking to Bobby Riggs, only he had the balls to back up his talk and then subsquently losing his testies by getting his arse smacked around the tennis court.

I'm not saying I would bet my house I could beat Shery Swoopes 1-on-1, I wouldn't be surprised if she won. All I know is that I have a very difficult time stopping people that are half a foot taller than me from scoring. They have problems guarding smaller players too, but not as much as vice versa. Face it, basketball is a game where height and strength matter.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:05 pm

One more time.

Does it require playing in the NBA to be a great college player? Or being successful in the NBA? Bobby Hurley was a NBA bust but he was a darn fine college basketball player. There is plenty of talent in college hoops. Plenty of college schools with seniors on their team. The NBA can only take so many players.

College Basketball = A Team Sport
Pro Basketball = A team of individuals playing a sport.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:11 pm

pk500 wrote:DB:

I agree. But I didn't bring up those four players as an example of the dwindling talent pool in college hoop. I brought it up as an example of four players who Kaz couldn't beat in 1-on-1.

I know that's what you were shooting for...I was just pointing out that the first 4 guys you came up with all either needed to be in college for 4 years, or they didn't have a choice (i.e. wouldn't get drafted if they didn't).

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:20 pm

You guys are getting caught up in the definition of greatness...

There's a big difference between a guy like Hurley, who was a tremendous college point guard and a great college player like Duncan.

As mentioned, LeBron vs. Carmelo would have probably been epic--two guys who could will their team to victories at the college level (hypothetically for LeBron) competing for the crown. Instead, we get LeBron vs. Carmelo after a combined one year of college and see them play a flawed game on the NBA-level instead of a polished one like Duncan.

I can't blame the kids, if someone had offered me an analyst position for guaranteed money (equal or greater than the going rate for college grads) out of high school and let me learn on the job, I probably would have done it and not spent however 10's of thousands on college. No real benefit for a gifted player if they have to worry about their families living in slums or if they aren't interested in school.

The departure of the elite players has opened the door for lower quality players to get more playing time. I don't like it but can still enjoy the product (not as much as I did back in the Hurley, Mashburn, Cheaney days though).

Look at Timberwolves renowned 1st round pick from last year, Ndudi Ebi. Would he have been a star at Arizona? Judging from his jump shot, no. But he's got another two years of guaranteed cash...

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:22 pm

bdoughty wrote:One more time.

Does it require playing in the NBA to be a great college player? Or being successful in the NBA? Bobby Hurley was a NBA bust but he was a darn fine college basketball player. There is plenty of talent in college hoops. Plenty of college schools with seniors on their team. The NBA can only take so many players.

College Basketball = A Team Sport
Pro Basketball = A team of individuals playing a sport.

I don't have a problem calling Bobby Hurley a great player.

And I'm not saying that we would have seen *tons* of great players even if the NBA didn't exist... great players are a rare breed. My sadness is, we will *never* see a truly great college basketball player again. You have to think guys like Stoudemire, T-Mac, LeBron and Kobe would have had chances to become great college players.

These Mickey mouse horseshit matchups we see today aren't even in the same breath as Hayes/Alcindor, Bird/Magic or Olajuwon/Ewing. Hell I'll take Oliver Miller, Todd Day and Lee Mayberry versus Shaq and Stanley Roberts over this crap we have today.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:25 pm

Dave wrote:I can't blame the kids, if someone had offered me an analyst position for guaranteed money (equal or greater than the going rate for college grads) out of high school and let me learn on the job, I probably would have done it and not spent however 10's of thousands on college.

Not a very sound example there Dave. Do you think Carmelo paid a dime for his one year at Syracuse? Or Duncan scratchin' out checks to Wake for his 4 years? Not likely.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:31 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
Dave wrote:I can't blame the kids, if someone had offered me an analyst position for guaranteed money (equal or greater than the going rate for college grads) out of high school and let me learn on the job, I probably would have done it and not spent however 10's of thousands on college.
Not a very sound example there Dave. Do you think Carmelo paid a dime for his one year at Syracuse? Or Duncan scratchin' out checks to Wake for his 4 years? Not likely.

Better example, excuse the blatant ripoff of the movie BASEketball.

Dude, Shaq got rich playing in college, everybody knows that.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:32 pm

bdoughty wrote:Better example, excuse the blatant ripoff of the movie BASEketball.

I thought I was the only one to see that movie. Apprently not. The Digital Sports Pals unite.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:33 pm

I completely realize how the example doesn't exactly sync with college hoops. But I'd still take the sure cash if college would have been free.

And as the old joke goes...

What was the biggest adjustment for Larry Johnson after entering the NBA?

THE PAY CUT!!!

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:42 pm

What's with the UNLV low blows?

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:24 pm

UNLV was fun as hell, wish I would have appreciated them more. The Gunnin' Runnin' Rebs played a damn fine game of hoops.

Pals of the world unite--I saw and enjoyed BASEketball as well. Steeeve Perry.

FatPitcher · Post by **FatPitcher** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:36 pm

Ahem.

Mine is 7 inches.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:00 pm

Great athletic ability doesn't translate into great basketball. I see where Kaz is coming from, and I certainly understand that the talent pool in college hoops has gone down. But I also think it's because it's been spread out more -- you have more mid-majors landing big recruits than ever.

The NBA is great when those guys go all out. Certainly the better teams like the Mavs and Kings are a blast to watch. But try being a Bulls fan for the last 6 years and tell me the college game isn't as good. I had more fun watching Q at DePaul than watching these Chicago Public League douchebags. The best guy on that team is a guy that played all four years of college (Heinrich).

Dimmu · Post by **Dimmu** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:12 pm

Umm...Illinois is going to be outstanding. Our football program is an absolute train wreck but basketball, bring on anyone in the country (this year at least).

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:04 pm

To say that the NBA game is a more enjoyable game to watch is absolutely 100% ridiculous. All it has become is a developmental league with a handful of stars. I could argue the same point you're making about the college game lacking star players to which I disagree of course. After naming about 15 top NBA players, what do you have? Hot dog players who are more interested in the Benjamins and picking up ladies than honing their basketball skills.

Sure, every now and then a player such as LeBron or Hinrich comes along who truly loves the game and shows it on and off the court. But that's few and far between nowadays. I find it nauseating that fans can continue to root for players who coke up, talk back to the coach and management, get DWIs like it's no big deal, berate their fellow teamates, take plays off, refuse to enter a game, turn down multi-million dollar contracts, refuse to play for a specific team, etc etc etc. Not to mention the gameplay is so very lacking until the 4th quarter or come playoff time.

The shooting percentage is at an all time low in the NBA. Ball handling skills are atrocious. And execution? There is no execution anymore. The game is either one on one or it's throw it down to the big man and let him back his man up 4 feet and shoot. Scoring is way down because teams don't run anymore. Why? Because the defense is better nowadays? Maybe, but the players don't have the skills because the game is too one dimensional.

Yes, the college game needs some fixing up. My team of interest (Kansas) has a fabulous coach who's an unbelieveable recruiter. What's he's been able to accomplish in just over a year is unreal. What he's doing is going after the blue chip recruits knowing that they're probably stay only a couple years if that. Heck, some of them may even back out of their committments like JR Smith did. There's an enormous amount of pressure to win the NCAA Championship and the only way to accomplish that feat is to recruit the best players. Roy Williams rarely did that and I respected that but the game has changed. It's unfortunate and I've come to deal with it.

But at least the majority of the players who attend college play for the love the game. It's not always pretty, but the NBA game sure as heck isn't anymore either. I'd rather see plays that are set up that have been practiced over and over and over. Bodies flying all over the floor in the first half of a UNC/Duke, Mizzou/KU, Indiana/Michigan, Syracuse/Uconn game, and on and on and on. Not to mention crazed fans who sleep out days before a huge game, deafening crowds, fight songs, and specific traditions at each individual school.

To each their own of course. No one will ever ever ever convince me that the NBA game is a worthy product any longer. And I'll never convince you the NCAA game is a more exciting and fundamental game. Which it by far is.