OT: No Jaguar F1 in 2005

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:49 pm

PK,

I know EJ's going to have to take on a pay driver next year - I just hope that this time he hires someone with more talent than Pantano, a driver from whom I expected rather more than he ever delivered.

I do agree that the Vodafone case was something of a folly (neatly following the company line, since Vodafone pay my wages) and EJ did get lost in the showbiz and razzmatazz from '97 to '02, but underneath that I still saw Eddie as being a racer at heart, albeit an easily sidetracked one. His background both as a driver and team owner in the lower formulae always had me thinking that he was a born petrolhead.

Fraud or not, I'm happier following EJ than the Little Napoleon...sadly, that means while Ferrari followers chalk up win after win, I'm happy with a point.

Cheers,
Adam

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:51 pm

Well, Adam, I'm a closet Minardi fan, so I dig the little guy in F1, too. And I can't stand Ferrari, either.

Williams is my big team, Minardi my small team.

Take care,
PK

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:20 pm

Is it just me, or is Toyota one of the most passion-less and ultimately boring squads to come along in a long time?

At least Ferrari gets the results to combat their lifelessness.

I've never liked McLaren but will cheer on my boy JPM next year.

The more I think of it, I begin to wonder which teams I truly do enjoy at this point! If Red Bull signs a 'murican to test or drive, they could head near the top of the list.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:37 pm

Dave:

Good point about Toyota. Part of the blase attitude that many, including I, have toward the team is its choice of drivers for its first few seasons.

Could there be more boring choices than Mika Salo, Allan McNish, Olivier Panis, Cristiano da Matta and Ricardo Zonta?

Salo, Panis: Journeymen extraordinaire.

Zonta: Unproven, humiliated by JV at BAR.

McNish: Great sports car driver, which is where he should stay.

da Matta: Out of his depth in F1.

Seriously, do any of these choices inspire passion on or off the track, especially considering Toyota has the bankroll to hire anyone? And the "marquee" names being brought in for 2005, Ralf Schumacher and Jarno Trulli, aren't cheer-inducing, either. At least Trulli is considered one of the good guys of the paddock, but I don't consider him charismatic or a marquee name just because he won Monaco once.

And Ralf Schumacher? Is there a more phlegmatic top driver in the pit lane? Maybe Raikkonen, but at least he gives maximum effort all the time, unlike moody Ralfie, who puts out when he feels like it.

Out,
PK

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:01 pm

Good point about the Toyota drivers, although we disagree about McNish.

I almost like Kimi for his apparent complete lack of personality--so bad it is good sort of deal. Maybe its the hair?

Where did you stand on Eddie Irvine? I wish there were more drivers like him in F1 (or any racing really) these days. Not the fastest guys in the paddock, but how many others were punched by Senna?

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:03 pm

SF, the "Orange" sponsored Arrows cars were sharp. Plus ol' Verstappen would always give the first few laps a good run before he had to pit with that woefully small tank.

Where's Engbal Hamidy (or however you spell it) these days? He was a very hot prospect for a while and I can't recall hearing his name in a while.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:31 pm

Have no idea what Hamidy or the highly rated Sergio Rinland, who designed one of the last Arrows and a recent Sauber, are doing. Rinland did some design work on touring cars after leaving F1, but I've heard nothing of them.

I guess Hamidy and Rinland join the list of talented designers outside of F1 now, for whatever reason, a list headed in my mind by John Barnard and Alan Jenkins.

Regarding McNish, I think he was the best sports car driver in the world right before he went to F1. Kristensen has since taken that mantle, but Nishy could fly. I understand the pull of F1, but I don't think he ever did anything with Toyota to make me stand up and say: "Whoa, this guy is wasting his talent in this sled of a Toyota. He needs to be in a top team!"

That said, McNish is a super-nice guy. Our pit reporting staff had nothing but nice things to say about him during the 2002 USGP.

Z is right: The pressure is really on Gascoyne now at Toyota. Gazza has a reputation in the paddock, according to my American F1 journalist source (I'm sure you've read him on espn.com

), of being a really bright guy who also believes every bit of the praise lavished upon him. In other words, Mike likes Mike -- a lot.

But there also was the niggling suspicion that his predecessors at Jordan and Renault laid the groundwork for him to succeed, and that he simply tweaked their systems for success. Don't know whether that's true or not, but Gustav Brunner does usually design a tidy car, although that didn't appear to be the case at Toyota.

So Gascoyne either is going to be a hero or a zero. He certainly can't blame lack of finances or technical infrastructure.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:35 pm

Verstappen and Tom Walkinshaw were a match made in heaven at Arrows -- two of the biggest cons among drivers and owners, respectively, in the F1 paddock.

Verstappen's "Jos the Boss aura" was helped by two facts:

One, he did record blazing starts and first laps. Too bad there are about another 60 or so laps in the rest of most Grands Prix, and Verstappen inevitably had brain fade at some point.

Two, Verstappen was Michael Schumacher's favorite teammate before Barrichello, and Michael and Jos still are friends today. It certainly helps your career when Schuey is singing your praises in the paddock.

I think Verstappen was a stiff, plain and simple.

Walkinshaw? He makes Eddie Jordan look pure. EJ is a snake; Walkinshaw is a crook.

Out,
PK

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:22 pm

Jos the F'ing boss, always enjoyed that.

Any rumors of him joining Jordan for next year yet? He does have some dedicated fans, I think they confused my Dad at the first USGP. He didn't get the Jos Verstappen experience.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:04 am

Williams sucks.

Minardi swallows.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:30 am

sf_z wrote:This thread is too civil. Need to import the guys from the Roy Williams/Ed Reed thread to spice it up.

The only guy active in F1 now who inspires that kind of acrimony is JV.

Nah, after his stellar showing this year with Renault, JV should inspire nothing but pity. Or in my case toward JV, more scorn.

If Peter Sauber is paying JV $1 million per year, just a guess, that's $1 million too much. The guy is the most overrated driver in the paddock, and his three-race stint with Renault this year proved it.

People can make all the excuses about not being in the car, but it's not like this guy was on a three-year sabbatical. He had been out of the car less than a year.

JV is a has-been.

Out,
PK

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:42 am

JV is a has-been.

Everyone agrees with that these days; even JV!

F1 needs more SATO. One reason I wanted to see Button at Williams was to see SATO as #1 at BAR. I know that supposedly they were on equal, but I don't think there is any doubt that Button has the advantage there. Of course he earned it, Button was the man this year.

Oh yeah, I am so tired of hearing about how great Trulli and Fisichella are. At what point will Fisi lose that "most talented driver in the field" BS.

You know who failed to impress me at all this year? Alonso.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:47 am

Don:

Agreed on Sato. I learned to love that kid this year. What a swashbuckler, what balls. He's a RACER, something lacking in the grooved-tire, narrow-track chassis, refuelling era of F1.

Sato is one of the few guys on the grid who doesn't wait until pit stops to gain position. I hope he blossoms enough in 2005 to take over Button's mantle as team leader at BAR when Button jumps ship for Williams in 2006.

A legitimate Japanese driver leading the de facto Honda house team -- don't think the Honda bosses would mind that one bit!

P.S. A 41-post thread on Formula One. Who says Americans don't care about F1? But the thread has been inflated by basically five guys: DChaps, Z, Dave, Simo and me ...

Take care,
PK

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:54 am

I often think about the various forms of motorsports enjoyed on this board. It has to be one of the most wide-ranging and (for Americans) obscure group of fans.

Agreed on all points about Sato. If I could let go of the built up rancor from BAR's JV period, they'd probably be my favorite team. A Sato-Montoya battle for a win would be fun, probably not near a Villeneuve-Jabouille clash due to the cars these days, but fun nonetheless. Odds of ending in the kitty litter--very high.

F1 needs more swashbuckling, to steal PK's term. I still remember watching JPM on ovals while in CART. The in-car shots were priceless, watching him saw at the wheel.

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:16 pm

Dave wrote:I still remember watching JPM on ovals while in CART. The in-car shots were priceless, watching him saw at the wheel.

Can you imagine if JPM and Zanardi were driving for Ganassi at the same time? Now that would have been some fireworks.

Neckthai · Post by **Neckthai** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:21 pm

DChaps wrote:
JV is a has-been.
Everyone agrees with that these days; even JV!

F1 needs more SATO. One reason I wanted to see Button at Williams was to see SATO as #1 at BAR. I know that supposedly they were on equal, but I don't think there is any doubt that Button has the advantage there. Of course he earned it, Button was the man this year.

Oh yeah, I am so tired of hearing about how great Trulli and Fisichella are. At what point will Fisi lose that "most talented driver in the field" BS.

You know who failed to impress me at all this year? Alonso.

At the same time, every time Fisi leaves a team, it takes an upswing, Jordan, Benneton... Maybe Sauber is due.

Neckthai · Post by **Neckthai** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:12 pm

So, how 'bout that Chase for the Nextel Cup?

Still not a big fan about it.

You have three guys with a legit shot at the title and three more guys who need a lot of help. It's manufactured drama. Under the old rules, you have a pretty good title fight still between 24, 48 and 8. So Busch is looking good for taking advantage of the situation.

But pity guys like McMurray, who's would be fighting for sixth in the final points, but instead will be the guy who finished 11th.

Also, the same old points apply to the NBS and CTS, and those races turned out pretty well.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:05 pm

The Chase is good TV, and it has eliminated the dull points chases of recent years.

But the comparisons of this showdown to 1992 sicken me. I was a HUGE Davey Allison fan, and he led the points going into Atlanta that year, with five other guys in contention for the title.

Alan "Mighty Mouse" Kulwicki pulled it out in one of the most exciting motor races I've ever seen in my life. Came right down to the last lap, with nearly every one of the six contenders involved in some kind of drama during the race. And that six-man fight didn't need a playoff to be created.

The season finale in 1992 was remarkable for two other reasons, too: It was the final Winston Cup start for Richard Petty and the first Winston Cup start for a guy who has enjoyed a halfway-decent career since then -- one Jeff Gordon.

I still have the 1992 finale on tape. I might break it out this weekend ...

Take care,
PK

Neckthai · Post by **Neckthai** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:28 pm

Alan Kulwicki's "Underbird." Felt bad for Davey, getting taken out in someone else's wreck.

If I remember, Elliott won the race, but Kulwicki won the title because he stayed out and led an extra lap to get the bonus for most laps led.

Possibly the best NASCAR race, I've seen. Although I was at the Darlington race when Busch and Craven played Days of Thunder out of Turn 4.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:35 pm

The Chase has done exactly what it was made for--increase ratings and attention during the end of the year where NASCAR faces off against football.

I still think it is one of the more ludicrous ideas they've come up with for a racing series. There are a couple ways to make it a true "playoff": Have only the 10 contenders on the track, yeah right; or score those 10 completely differently than the rest (an F1-type point system, where whoever finishes first in class gets the most points, etc. etc.).

NASCAR could solve a lot of the boring championships by changing their point structure to strongly encourage winning a race vs. just finishing in the top 10.