First off let me say PLEASE do not take this thread the wrong way, I am just stating my observations and DO understand that everyone’s opinion is just that, their opinion and that all impressions are valid. But, with that said…
I just find the angst and negativity that go into our interpretations/impressions of these sports titles very interesting . Of course the recent impressions of MVP are my main focus but we tend to do this with all of the years new sports titles (which again is NOT a bad thing). But with baseball we seem to take some extra steps in pointing out flaws in the game. Probably because baseball seems to be one of the toughest sports to represent in a video game and that all of the little nuances are very hard to develop correctly, but for a lot of us, they are all essential to the overall sport and it’s strategies. However, I tend to think that in what I’ve been calling ‘nitpicking’ we lose sight of what it is that we are actually playing. It’s is a video game first and foremost. Secondly, if you really think about the advances that sports gaming has made over the last few years, we should be overjoyed at the things that these games can give us the ability to do.
Again, I think that everyone’s opinion and input really help us out in determining if a game is right for us or not. I just think that sometimes the negativity deters some folks from understanding if the game suits even their own needs. I see impressions get wrapped up every year in the things that the game does wrong, so much so that we overlook a lot of things that the game does right. Not to say that nobody is mentioning the good things about MVP, but all of the ‘GameKiller’ talk way outweigh the positive posts. Of course there are some inexcusable issues that some of us will encounter and really bum us out, but again, are our expectations a tad too high? (please note that I understand certain things should be expected to be correct right out of the box, like franchise issues and maybe even the walks thing, but let’s not forget that other games always have similar problems and the these game are meant to appeal to a WIDE variety of people).
EA has had the fortunate position of being the first out of the gate this year from a profits perspective, however, they are very unfortunate from an expectation and impression perspective. For example, the walks issue. It's funny how now some are starting to say, 'Well, the walks thing has never really been done right in any game'. But yet we are jumping all over EA for their poor effort since there are not enough walks. My overall opinion on why EA is getting so blasted on these issues is that the game does so many things right, that the issues that occur seem even worse because lots of us really wants this to be THE game this year. There are so many cool advances and the new EA pitching interface is so well done that most of us want the complete package and are quite bummed that it did not happen.
The bottom line is that all of the games will have flaws this year. I am pretty sure of that. I also suspect that we will see the walks issue (ad/or other worse ones) appear in most of the other titles, but people will probably start to overlook them since the all of the angst will have died down. Plus, other titles will do some things better thus making MVP look like it failed in it’s attempts. I am not really trying to defend EA or MVP here, these are just some observations that I have seen in pattern when new batches of sports titles get released.
I know my words are probably old news to most but I think they need to be said from time to time. Just so we can sit back and realize what exactly we are criticizing and where exactly our expectations should be at. We all know that no game is perfect. Let’s just not try to get too wrapped up in flaws and just keep focus on the most important aspect: Does the game suit the individuals needs??? If it does, great. If it does not, by all means let’s here why! But if you are enjoying the game, don’t let other negative interpretations steer you away from trying a game and seeing if it does enough things right that you find fun in it. Like PK has stated, he is not a baseball aficionado but MVP is fun for him. I am somewhat of a baseball aficionado and the game is very enjoyable to me. Maybe some of us should be posting more of the really cool things that we are seeing and experiencing to balance out the negative things (once again, not that the negative post don’t have their place).
Oh well, just my $.02. Sorry if I am rambling but I just find these things interesting.
Consumer Angst in Regards to Sports Video Games…
Moderators: Bill_Abner, ScoopBrady
You know I would buy this arguement that all games have problems if I didn't ever play WE7, HH, championship manager and some others.
All games have problems but the best games have small minor problems.
Listen if a game like HH can do it right, why then should I play a game made by a game company that has the resources, money and man-power that can't better HH accomplishment.
I can't stand the fact that people don't demand more from these companies and the reviewers. Problem is it's a take or leave it world. If we don't like it than we can go play another game or not play it.
So that's the mentality we have well if you don't like MVP dont' play it. That accomplishes nothing. Hell if it was up to me, ASB, WSB and MVP would all be great baseball games and you could choose which one was for you. Sad fact as it is, MVP is not a very good game of baseball. It's a great looking game, with great features and it could even be consider a darn good video game but it doesn't play real baseball.
So what's the big deal. Well if you local city government raised you tzed 100% and spent that on hooker and booze you would start to ask questions. Yet with videogames, they can market a really medoicre product and everybody gets offended when you start to say hey soemthing isn't right here. Couple that with the fact, THAT NO REVIEWER who had the game pre-released mentioned there might be even an outside chance something is wrong or there are some problems with it.
All games have problems but the best games have small minor problems.
Listen if a game like HH can do it right, why then should I play a game made by a game company that has the resources, money and man-power that can't better HH accomplishment.
I can't stand the fact that people don't demand more from these companies and the reviewers. Problem is it's a take or leave it world. If we don't like it than we can go play another game or not play it.
So that's the mentality we have well if you don't like MVP dont' play it. That accomplishes nothing. Hell if it was up to me, ASB, WSB and MVP would all be great baseball games and you could choose which one was for you. Sad fact as it is, MVP is not a very good game of baseball. It's a great looking game, with great features and it could even be consider a darn good video game but it doesn't play real baseball.
So what's the big deal. Well if you local city government raised you tzed 100% and spent that on hooker and booze you would start to ask questions. Yet with videogames, they can market a really medoicre product and everybody gets offended when you start to say hey soemthing isn't right here. Couple that with the fact, THAT NO REVIEWER who had the game pre-released mentioned there might be even an outside chance something is wrong or there are some problems with it.
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James_E
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I agree with Spooky. And to Jrod's comment about HH I reiterate what I said in another thread:
Maybe HH did it right... a few weeks after the game came out when someone came up with the ultimate tune file/slider package. Don't forget that HH out of the box was not the baseball game everyone raves over, it took tweaking and tuning to make it so.
I know right now some feel that MVP cannot be tweaked to be what they want. Give it time and maybe one of the hardcore will find the right sliders just like the hardcore did for HH. Maybe they won't, but it is too early to judge right now.
Maybe HH did it right... a few weeks after the game came out when someone came up with the ultimate tune file/slider package. Don't forget that HH out of the box was not the baseball game everyone raves over, it took tweaking and tuning to make it so.
I know right now some feel that MVP cannot be tweaked to be what they want. Give it time and maybe one of the hardcore will find the right sliders just like the hardcore did for HH. Maybe they won't, but it is too early to judge right now.
I was as big of a HH fan as there was dating back to the very first version on the PC. But to say it was without issues is a stretch. It took people tweaking sliders, rosters, animations, you name it to get it to the game it's remembered as. It also wasn't without it share of troubling bugs. Remember the wrigley field bug, I believe there were issues with mound visits, rain delays etc. Seems to me there was a version where it was damn difficult to get a walk. It took forever to get steals tweaked just right. If I remember correctly in some versions it was much easier to hit with left handed batters, etc.
HH as great as it was, was not the same game out of the box as people seem to remember it being. It was also not a series with out it's share of problems. I can remember on the HH boards people demanding patches and having them delayed or not come out at all.
The community made that game as great as it was, and it surely was not with out significant warts in it's 2nd version, not to mention the following releases. Although HH 2002 or was it HH 2003 (I am old and am getting the versions mixed up) still stands as the greatest baseball game I have ever played.
HH as great as it was, was not the same game out of the box as people seem to remember it being. It was also not a series with out it's share of problems. I can remember on the HH boards people demanding patches and having them delayed or not come out at all.
The community made that game as great as it was, and it surely was not with out significant warts in it's 2nd version, not to mention the following releases. Although HH 2002 or was it HH 2003 (I am old and am getting the versions mixed up) still stands as the greatest baseball game I have ever played.
BK and James,
You are correct.
One of the things that these game companies should do is instead of including sliders. Include a tune file with console games. Let it be just like rosters where I can edit everything from ball physics to steal percentage. Why, HH is the reason. If MVP allowed us to make some changes with the AI, I think it would be worthy of some of the scores it's been getting. HH with all the tunes might be worth a 90.
Anyway, notice how the community always seems to make games better, WE has the edit community, HH you could tune until you were blue in the face. Heck even FBPro and BBPro allowed us to do this.
It's not going to happen but atleast the exec at EA Sports could say, so you don't like the way we set up the game, you change it.
You are correct.
One of the things that these game companies should do is instead of including sliders. Include a tune file with console games. Let it be just like rosters where I can edit everything from ball physics to steal percentage. Why, HH is the reason. If MVP allowed us to make some changes with the AI, I think it would be worthy of some of the scores it's been getting. HH with all the tunes might be worth a 90.
Anyway, notice how the community always seems to make games better, WE has the edit community, HH you could tune until you were blue in the face. Heck even FBPro and BBPro allowed us to do this.
It's not going to happen but atleast the exec at EA Sports could say, so you don't like the way we set up the game, you change it.
Agreed those are 3 of my all time favorite games. They were good games out of the box, but the community effort is what turned them in to great games...I wish more game companies would grasp this. EA has actually allowed the Battlefield 1942 community the opportunity to make that game a great game, imo. I hope they allow the MVP community to really dig in to their game.JRod wrote:
Anyway, notice how the community always seems to make games better, WE has the edit community, HH you could tune until you were blue in the face. Heck even FBPro and BBPro allowed us to do this.
I think what bothers people about games - and about EA particular - is that the focus is often on issues other than gameplay. One thing the High Heat series did was focus on gameplay. In the first year, the game didn't even have the ML license and the players were sprites! But a lot of people liked the game and could see the promise because of the way it played ball. Sure, the game was buggy as hell throughout the series, but you could get a of a lot of strategic baseball out of the game once you had it tuned up. I would go as far as to say that the 2000 - 2002 game played a much better game of baseball OUT-OF-THE-BOX than MVP does in 2004.
EA, on the other hand, seems to have spent a lot of time putting in minor league teams and making the game 'deep' without spending as much time with the gameplay as some of us would have liked. To be honest, the only strategy I use against the AI is to try not to give up HRs or triples. I don't have to worry about holding baserunners, hit and runs, or even walking batters. I can pick the corners with some slacker pitcher as well as I can with Maddox in his prime. All the teams play the same style and things have a feeling of sameness after a while. Admiring the great animations does not make this a great game to play.
I think we can talk about how great games look, and how many different add-ons (minor leagues!, fireworks!) we have that we did not have in the 'old days', but have games really improved all that much other than looks?
I think that the game industry as a whole is going the same direction as the movie industry. The games are becoming as slick as the movies. They look great, they sound great, but for the most part they are superficial and lacking in intelligence or imagination. A racing game without collision detection? A basketball game without fouls? A baseball game without walks? ANY game played on a console with a 2 gig hard drive that doesn't have an in-game save????
But it can be done. Good solid sports games can be made. EA has done it with their football and golf games. But to be honest there is a world of difference between a studio like EA-Tiburon in Orlando and EA-Canada. MVP plays like NHL Hockey 1998-2003. Slick, excellent presentation, lots of extras and superficial gameplay. I expect more and don't feel a bit bad about saying that out loud.
EA, on the other hand, seems to have spent a lot of time putting in minor league teams and making the game 'deep' without spending as much time with the gameplay as some of us would have liked. To be honest, the only strategy I use against the AI is to try not to give up HRs or triples. I don't have to worry about holding baserunners, hit and runs, or even walking batters. I can pick the corners with some slacker pitcher as well as I can with Maddox in his prime. All the teams play the same style and things have a feeling of sameness after a while. Admiring the great animations does not make this a great game to play.
I think we can talk about how great games look, and how many different add-ons (minor leagues!, fireworks!) we have that we did not have in the 'old days', but have games really improved all that much other than looks?
I think that the game industry as a whole is going the same direction as the movie industry. The games are becoming as slick as the movies. They look great, they sound great, but for the most part they are superficial and lacking in intelligence or imagination. A racing game without collision detection? A basketball game without fouls? A baseball game without walks? ANY game played on a console with a 2 gig hard drive that doesn't have an in-game save????
But it can be done. Good solid sports games can be made. EA has done it with their football and golf games. But to be honest there is a world of difference between a studio like EA-Tiburon in Orlando and EA-Canada. MVP plays like NHL Hockey 1998-2003. Slick, excellent presentation, lots of extras and superficial gameplay. I expect more and don't feel a bit bad about saying that out loud.
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davet010
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Kevin
I agree with much of your post, but I guess that we (ie the sort of people who post on boards like this) are in danger of believing that we are the prime target audience for these games. While you make a number of what I am sure are valid points about the baseball things that MVP doesn't do well, and I have done the same about FIFA in the past, a goodly number of these are not what the main gamers are looking for - they are looking for their favourite players/parks, accurate formats and some fun, in the main.
To continue the film analogy, I guess we are like the cineastes who look for the deep plot and character developments, whereas some of these games are more for the speed and whizz-bang of the thing. Making games (and we have to remember that that is what these things are, in the end) should lie somewhere between the two, and the degree to which you are at one end of the scale rather than the other may dictate your view on which of the games you actually prefer.
I agree with much of your post, but I guess that we (ie the sort of people who post on boards like this) are in danger of believing that we are the prime target audience for these games. While you make a number of what I am sure are valid points about the baseball things that MVP doesn't do well, and I have done the same about FIFA in the past, a goodly number of these are not what the main gamers are looking for - they are looking for their favourite players/parks, accurate formats and some fun, in the main.
To continue the film analogy, I guess we are like the cineastes who look for the deep plot and character developments, whereas some of these games are more for the speed and whizz-bang of the thing. Making games (and we have to remember that that is what these things are, in the end) should lie somewhere between the two, and the degree to which you are at one end of the scale rather than the other may dictate your view on which of the games you actually prefer.
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