The Beautiful Game, Fútbol, Calcio, Footie Season 23/24

[GB_Simo]

Lordy lord, we're in the final.

I'm almost not bothered about what comes next, which I fully expect to be an Italian trophy win because I believe they're better than we are. (I know, Austria got at them, but it remains vital to avoid having hope, so stay with me on this.) It's just been really nice to watch an England team that can manage a game, keep its head, appear to have some kind of cohesive plan that doesn't involve Harry Kane on corners and have a backup for when that plan doesn't quite seem to be working. It also helps that, unlike the 'Golden Generation' and the lousy, craven disgraces that followed, I actually quite like this lot.

[10spro]

It should be an exciting weekend of footy. Of course my best interest will be in the Copa America where Neymar will be facing Messi in the finals and while Italy should be slightly favored to win it all, I would keep the likes of Grealish, Foden and Sterling as long as possible on the field on the counter attack with their speed and creativity. This Italian team is more talented than their past but some lack in speed when it comes to their D.

[wco81]

So the penalty which set up the game-winning goal, a travesty?

[10spro]

So the penalty which set up the game-winning goal, a travesty?

That was a gift from the ref. And what bugs me the most about Sterling. He’s a good player, don’t waste it in shenanigaism.

[GB_Simo]

I would suggest that 'gift' overstates it and 'travesty' falls squarely under Better Bait Needed but there's no doubt it was a soft one. There's contact, twice, but had it been given against us I wouldn't have been overly happy and had the ref not given it, I wouldn't have expected the VAR to overrule it. Quite a lot about the whole penalty sequence was questionable at best, including whichever bell-end shone a laser in Kasper Schmeichel's face and whichever inner voice told Kane to aim weakly within a yard of the goalkeeper.

[10spro]

In their house, and enemy territory. Messi finally won a Major with the Nationa team.



Vamos Argentina!

[GB_Simo]

Well, f*ck.

Echoes of the 2018 WC semi-final: an opening spell in which we hit upon a formula that could carry us to victory, followed by an interminably long period of doing the polar opposite thing. For spells prior to the equaliser, we'd have been in the stands watching if we'd got any deeper. The tournament's best team and the best team on the night won once we finally ran out of chances to let Jordan Pickford keep saving penalties.

None of that makes it any less heart-breaking, you understand.

[wco81]

Does it seem like more matches decided by shootout compared to other recent international tourneys?

[GB_Simo]

Does it seem like more matches decided by shootout compared to other recent international tourneys?

It's been a fairly standard number, if I've counted correctly. Four shootouts is the same figure seen at the last couple of World Cups and only one more than the last Euros. I suppose whether it seems like more is more of a subjective thing, in the same way that to me, the spell between Luke Shaw's goal and Leonardo Bonucci's equaliser seemed to last about six hours.

[dougb]

Italy were clearly the technically and tactically superior team. Very disappointed to see England revert back to hoofing it up the field after generally looking better through most of the tournament and the first fifteen minutes of the final. Good lord their midfield presence just completely evaporated and there was no linkup play with the defenders, resulting in the ball being repeatedly given away after more than 3 touches. Pickford was clearly the England player of the tournament and the defense was good. But once the team started to handle the ball like it was a live hand grenade…

[pk500]

Jonathan Wilson's tactical analysis nailed it, as usual: https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... o-survival

[wco81]

Couple of NFL podcasters, self-admittedly novices to soccer, said that it seemed like the teams played it safe in extra time, just tried to get to the shootout.

He cited one shot on goal in 120 minutes.

Said that teams kind of tacitly agreed not to try to score in extra time.

I would think shootouts are too random, unless the managers had real good reasons to believe they'd win in the shootout.

If one team was dominating possession AND shots on goal throughout the game and looked capable of doing so in extra time, maybe the other team would just try to avoid giving up a goal.

Otherwise, unless a team had 3 guys who could nail the upper corners every time, seems like a risky bet.

[Zeppo]

Good lord their midfield presence just completely evaporated and there was no linkup play with the defenders, resulting in the ball being repeatedly given away after more than 3 touches. Pickford was clearly the England player of the tournament and the defense was good.

I think a lot of what you saw was due to Mancini making tactical adjustments in the first half, and especially at halftime. Verratti ended up shifting wider and disrupting the connections between England’s right side and the excellent duo of Phillips and Rice in the center. Chiesa ended up roaming the left side in the 2nd half until he got hurt, and Emerson changed his runs to allow the little magician Insigne more freedom to find the ball.

Meanwhile, despite putting out a genius starting formation that led directly to a goal against an unprepared Italy squad (maybe they scored too early?), Southgate once again subbed a player on only to take him off later, refused to bring Grealish on until it was too late, and finally brought on 2 players seemingly just to take penalties.

For me Italy were the best team in the tourney, although they did seem to start hot and cool off. England grew into the tournament, but their manager didn’t seem to do the same, at least I terms of in-game adjustments.

I disagree about Pickford. To me, Stones and McGuire were the best, most solid players along with the aforementioned “surprise” duo in front of them. Not that Pickford was poor, just that he had a ton of help making it easier for him.

I hate penalties, but have grudgingly come to accept that the modern age of constant soccer won’t allow for replays to take place. I feel so heartbroken for Saka, who should never have been exposed in that way in the shootout, and I only hope he can recover well.

[GB_Simo]

I think a lot of what you saw was due to Mancini making tactical adjustments in the first half, and especially at halftime. Verratti ended up shifting wider and disrupting the connections between England’s right side and the excellent duo of Phillips and Rice in the center. Chiesa ended up roaming the left side in the 2nd half until he got hurt, and Emerson changed his runs to allow the little magician Insigne more freedom to find the ball.

From an English perspective, the impact of those changes was probably magnified by the extent to which we sat progressively deeper and let Italy play. A reasonably young side, at home, in their nation's first major final since 1966 and with the huge pressure our country exerts upon them weighing on their shoulders, froze up a bit while seeking to protect what it had at all costs. Human, I suppose, and we looked a lot better once we'd failed in that task.

Meanwhile, despite putting out a genius starting formation that led directly to a goal against an unprepared Italy squad (maybe they scored too early?), Southgate once again subbed a player on only to take him off later, refused to bring Grealish on until it was too late, and finally brought on 2 players seemingly just to take penalties.

For me Italy were the best team in the tourney, although they did seem to start hot and cool off. England grew into the tournament, but their manager didn’t seem to do the same, at least I terms of in-game adjustments.

Scottish aberration aside, Southgate was superb all tournament at picking a team and a formation tailored to the task of winning that particular match. I have no particular issue with him subbing a sub either - Grealish was perfectly suited to what we needed to do at 1-1 against Denmark but his strengths aren't a match for the gameplan we adopted at 2-1 up, and while I don't imagine Henderson would have taken a penalty in the final having already missed more than one for England, his substitution could just as easily have been made 20 minutes earlier on grounds that he was bloody awful.

Where I would absolutely agree with you is that our changes tended to come later than they should have done, the introduction of Grealish being an obvious but not isolated example. Sticking with the final, it should have been obvious to anyone with the gift of sight that Italy were going to score well in advance of their eventually doing so, but we did nothing to combat that and get ourselves higher up the pitch until we'd already conceded. We also very clearly needed a more effective link between the front three and the rest of the team, one that didn't involve lumping it high to an exhausted Kane and hoping for the best.

In saying that, Gareth's got us to a WC semi and a Euro final. It's a bit of a shame that a squad with so much attacking talent is quite as safety-first in mindset as we are, but the bloke clearly understands the requirements of tournament football better than most.

I disagree about Pickford. To me, Stones and McGuire were the best, most solid players along with the aforementioned “surprise” duo in front of them. Not that Pickford was poor, just that he had a ton of help making it easier for him.

You could make a reasonable case for a number of players. Pickford, Stones, Maguire (whose penalty was the most Harry Maguire thing that ever Harry Maguired - what a hit), Sterling and the newly-revived Luke Shaw, who had a wonderful tournament. It's a nice problem to have and not one I'm particularly used to having.

I hate penalties, but have grudgingly come to accept that the modern age of constant soccer won’t allow for replays to take place. I feel so heartbroken for Saka, who should never have been exposed in that way in the shootout, and I only hope he can recover well.

The trust our management team have in youth is so refreshing after years of persisting with players who no longer had any real business being there. You do wonder whether that trust should extend to giving a lad aged 19 the responsibility of taking a must-not-miss penalty in a major international final, having never previously taken a penalty in a competitive match. Knowing now that Grealish put his name forward, might he have been a better bet? Hindsight's a wonderful thing, and Jack might have been blazing them wide in training all week.

Never mind. A brilliant run, so much for English football to be proud of and no shame in ultimately losing to a better side on the night.

[pk500]

Regarding Saka taking the penalty, the crew at the always excellent "Football Writers Podcast" from BT Sport surmised that maybe Southgate picked Saka because young players think less about the weight and ramifications of failure and because Saka had no failure from the spot to recall because he wasn't a previous penalty taker.

Interesting theory, but I still think there were better, more experienced guys to put on the spot. Still, Saka was a real bright spot for England for the entire tournament, only validating his sublime form this seaon with Arsenal even further.

[RobVarak]

I think a lot of what you saw was due to Mancini making tactical adjustments in the first half, and especially at halftime. Verratti ended up shifting wider and disrupting the connections between England’s right side and the excellent duo of Phillips and Rice in the center. Chiesa ended up roaming the left side in the 2nd half until he got hurt, and Emerson changed his runs to allow the little magician Insigne more freedom to find the ball.

This 100%.

It was extremely impressive, as well. Anyone can change formations, but getting the team to change their passing style and patterns of play as well is something else altogether. And it's infinitely harder in the international game than with a club side. Mancini, his staff, and the players, all deserve an enormous amount of credit.

On the flip side, England changed their shape after he equalizer, but weren't able to effectively change the way they were playing. Despite now having a midfield advantage, they spent too much time trying to hit the Italians quickly rather than building up and taking advantage of the new tactical landscape. Southgate pressed the right buttons, but the side weren't able to react with the same level of comfort and understanding.

[GB_Simo]

100%, Rob. It's impossible to say enough about the quality of the work Mancini and his staff have done. To change the fundamental make-up of the squad and their approach to the game in the time he's had, while building in such tactical flexibility, they've done an astonishing job.

Regarding Saka taking the penalty, the crew at the always excellent "Football Writers Podcast" from BT Sport surmised that maybe Southgate picked Saka because young players think less about the weight and ramifications of failure and because Saka had no failure from the spot to recall because he wasn't a previous penalty taker.

Interesting theory, but I still think there were better, more experienced guys to put on the spot. Still, Saka was a real bright spot for England for the entire tournament, only validating his sublime form this seaon with Arsenal even further.

Michael Owen has advanced a similar theory and to back up his case, he's rattled off a list of English footballers who've missed at major tournaments and their age when doing so. As much as anything else, it raises a potential damned-if-you-do aspect of Southgate's decision: if he'd sent up Sterling or Stones and had the same outcome, would there now be folk asking why he didn't take a chance on the unburdened youth of Saka? Possibly, though I'll admit that I'm not sure it would have crossed my mind.

[10spro]

He’s staying there for another 5 years, no PL for those that wanted to see his skills there.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/soccer-tran ... ut-sources

[10spro]

Or maybe not after all. Shocker, really. Let your imagination go wild. Or is it another bluff from Barca for him to take a deeper cut.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/barcelona-e ... w-contract

[pk500]

Or maybe not after all. Shocker, really. Let your imagination go wild. Or is it another bluff from Barca for him to take a deeper cut.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/barcelona-e ... w-contract

It would seem there are only two clubs in Europe who can afford him: Man City or PSG.

Let the fun begin.

[wco81]

How realistic are the Adama Traore to Spurs talk?

His wiki lists him at 160 pounds. Is that credible?


Amazon Prime is doing more All or Nothing seasons with top Euro clubs.

They announced earlier this year that they will have series on Juventus and Bayern, expected some time this year.

Not clear if it will feature the last seasons of these clubs or an earlier season.

They’re also currently filming Arsenals season for release next year. Could be rough there.

[10spro]

Rumor is that by the time you read this, CR7 will return to the EPL playing for the other Manchester team he was with. While still a top player, he hasn’t won any titles for Juve and while different teams are looking for a true scorer, it remains to be seen whether he would be a good fit in City.

Since the departure of Kun Aguero, Guardiola has been looking for his replacement.

The other rumor is that K. Mbappe may end up in RM and if Ronaldo doesn’t return to the PL, he may end up playing with Messi and Neymar.

Wouldn’t that be insane…

[dbdynsty25]

Rumor is that by the time you read this, CR7 will return to the EPL playing for the other Manchester team he was with. While still a top player, he hasn’t won any titles for Juve and while different teams are looking for a true scorer, it remains to be seen whether he would be a good fit in City.

Since the departure of Kun Aguero, Guardiola has been looking for his replacement.

The other rumor is that K. Mbappe may end up in RM and if Ronaldo doesn’t return to the PL, he may end up playing with Messi and Neymar.

Wouldn’t that be insane…

City out, ManU in...possibly for CR7. Crazy xfer rumors all the time.

[10spro]

It would be a judgmental error by Solksjaer if he ends up in ManU. I think they need more a CDM at this point when you got already the likes of Rashford, Sancho and Cavani. But hey not many teams can afford CR7 so anything is possible, and it would make the old Trafford team favorites to win it all.

Pretty sure Bruno Fernandes would want him back.

[pk500]

It would be a judgmental error by Solksjaer if he ends up in ManU. I think they need more a CDM at this point when you got already the likes of Rashford, Sancho and Cavani. But hey not many teams can afford CR7 so anything is possible, and it would make the old Trafford team favorites to win it all.

Pretty sure Bruno Fernandes would want him back.

Disagree that the addition of Ronaldo puts United over City or Chelsea in the race for the title. You even said United needs a CDM more than a wing/striker, even one of Ronaldo's remaining skill. Chelsea got the best player who moved to England in the transfer market this summer -- Lukaku.

This is more of a commercial move than a football one. The Glazers could give two f*cks about winning. They want more revenue, and CR7 kits probably already are flying off the shelves at the club store.