World Cup 2014 Thread

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by pk500 »

wco81 wrote:You wonder how well an NFL skill player or an NBA wing player would do. They would have the physical strength and size, speed, short-area explosiveness. Of course kicking skills take a long time to develop and it may be that explosive athletes used to a lot of time outs and getting subbed for may not have the stamina to run for 80 minutes and still have the ability to be explosive in the right moments.
Please stop with this idea of plugging in NFL or NBA players into soccer to create a miraculous ascension into a world power. It's ignorant, and insulting to the game.

Richard Sherman and LeBron James would be just as feeble at soccer as Matt Besler and Clint Dempsey would be in the NFL or NBA. Different skills, different sports, different abilities honed over a decade or more.

The USMNT has had its share of large defenders in the past. Gooch and Bocanegra were no shrimps. Besler is 6-1. He's not tiny. But Lukaku is a handful for ANY of the top defenders in the world to handle. Guys like Terry, Kompany, Silva and Lahm all would struggle with Lukaku's rare combination of power, speed and grace.

America doesn't need basketball or football players in its team. It needs better soccer players.
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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by RobVarak »

pk500 wrote: America doesn't need basketball or football players in its team. It needs better soccer players.
Yes and no. I agree with Paul that it's facile to suggest that specific NFL or NBA athletes would slot in as excellent footballers. But the larger point is valid. If just a fraction of the elite athletes nationwide in those sports saw soccer as a valid choice, it would have a significant impact.

Figuring out how to get more participation from kids across the socio-economic spectrum is vexing for established sports like baseball, so it's a near pipe dream for US Soccer.
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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by wco81 »

I'm not saying it would work but clearly, the best American athletes gravitate towards the more lucrative US sports -- whatever happened to Gooch anyways?

A lot of the action involves players pushing away others so upper-body strength does come into play. That's what WRs and CBs often do, pushing each other while running at a full sprint for 30-40 yards and some train in martial arts to evade the pushing that goes on.

NFL and NBA stars wouldn't bother trying another sport since they have so much money on the line.

But even marginal football and basketball players, like many who play in D1 programs but can't make NFL or NBA rosters, have a combination of strength, speed and explosiveness which would translate to some aspects of soccer.

Of course, they'd have to spend less time in the weight room and more time developing dexterity with their feet as well as stamina. The rewards just aren't there though since it's easier for them to train for American sports.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by Rodster »

RobVarak wrote:Figuring out how to get more participation from kids across the socio-economic spectrum is vexing for established sports like baseball, so it's a near pipe dream for US Soccer.
That may not be as big an issue as you think going forward in the future. With all the lawsuits being thrown at the NFL and all the concussion headlines and former players saying if they could do it over, they would have chosen a different sport. Having Dan Marino filing a lawsuit against the NFL doesn't help the cause. Then you have former players saying they would discourage their kids from playing the sport.

The lure could be Europe with a big payday. I can't help but think you could see future kids rethinking an NFL career.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by wco81 »

Rodster wrote:
RobVarak wrote:Figuring out how to get more participation from kids across the socio-economic spectrum is vexing for established sports like baseball, so it's a near pipe dream for US Soccer.
That may not be as big an issue as you think going forward in the future. With all the lawsuits being thrown at the NFL and all the concussion headlines and former players saying if they could do it over, they would have chosen a different sport. Having Dan Marino filing a lawsuit against the NFL doesn't help the cause. Then you have former players saying they would discourage their kids from playing the sport.

The lure could be Europe with a big payday. I can't help but think you could see future kids rethinking an NFL career.
I've heard many players say they'd still play football. Even before concussions became a big deal, retired NFL players were dealing with arthritic joints, weight problems and other consequences of an NFL career, yet they said they'd still play if they had to do it over again.

It's kind of hard for someone to think of going to Europe, leaving their family behind. It's one thing for a South American, since there are no other professional sports which are lucrative, but we have 3 other team sports in this country so there are options.

Hell it seems the African immigrants in the US take up football and basketball while those in Europe gravitate to soccer. It's the culture, what they see their schoolmates playing from the very beginning, that influences budding athletes. While youth soccer is huge in the US, what do the kids play at recess and in PE programs by the time they reach middle school? And in high school of course, it's no contest, soccer isn't even in the discussion.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by 10spro »

Jared wrote:It wasn't flagged offside. For offsides, the linesman holds his flag straight up in the air and holds it until the referee acknowledges it with a whistle. Then the linesman uses the flag to point where the offsides occurred relative to the linesman (e.g. downward on the near side of the field, upwards on the far side).
Correct. He was onside and was not flagged for offside. I think he was surprised himself that he was so open at such a crucial time and that kind of misses, is what makes or breaks a team. Would Lukaku miss under a similar scenario?

Agree about that perfect pass from Bradley to Green, that was world class material.

But the D during ET was soft and not cohesive, and as many mentioned Howard was huge,

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by Naples39 »

I have often thought the majority of NBA and NFL players would be poor soccer players, even if they focused on the sport early on. Their innate traits that give them a head start in those sports aren't as valuable, and maybe even a liability, in soccer. Soccer is a game of stamina and delicate skill, and NBA giraffes who can't be bothered to master the most basic of soft repetitive skills like consistently making free throws, or NFL bulls who only perform clumsy simple tasks for a few seconds at a time, would simply be barking up the wrong tree. Certain hockey players might've been well suited, but guys who make it as a professional athlete based on their raw physical traits, no matter how great their speed or agility, would never be among the world elite in a game of touch and IQ. There is no American Leo Messi stuck in the wrong sport.

There's also a tinge of racism whenever people lament that American thoroughbreds are playing black dominated sports like basketball and football, while our soccer team is stuck with 'un-athletic' suburban white guys, but I digress.
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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by RobVarak »

Naples39 wrote:NFL bulls who only perform clumsy simple tasks for a few seconds at a time,
8O

That's a pretty brutal misrepresentation of the athletic skills of a football player. You don't think the raw athletic talent of the average NFL WR, DB, RB, TE or QB could be the foundation of an exceptional soccer player?

I appreciate the difference between quick-twitch and endurance athleticism, but to a large extent this is what development is all about. If you took 500 players with Dexter McCluster's athletic ability (I'm using him because he was about league average by Football Outsider's main metric, but you can pick whomever) I'm pretty confident we could turn out some reasonably good soccer players if his football development was replaced with futbol development from Day 1. And given a critical mass of such players, I think that we'd end up with some elite footballers out of that group.
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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by dbdynsty25 »

RobVarak wrote:I appreciate the difference between quick-twitch and endurance athleticism, but to a large extent this is what development is all about. If you took 500 players with Dexter McCluster's athletic ability (I'm using him because he was about league average by Football Outsider's main metric, but you can pick whomever) I'm pretty confident we could turn out some reasonably good soccer players if his football development was replaced with futbol development from Day 1. And given a critical mass of such players, I think that we'd end up with some elite footballers out of that group.
Yes. And this cannot be argued.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by fsquid »

I'm not saying it would work but clearly, the best American athletes gravitate towards the more lucrative US sports -- whatever happened to Gooch anyways?
He was at the greatest British club Sheffield Wednesday this past season.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by fsquid »

I'm going to launch a new show called "America's Next Striker" or maybe "First Striker". On the other hand, we could be English.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by wco81 »

It's not like US soccer players have great touch anyways. They can run but they can't cross or serve consistently, outside of Bradley.


And yeah NFL players have more going than brute strength and straight-line speed. The skills position players have to have some level of technique as well as studying the sport.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by Naples39 »

RobVarak wrote:
Naples39 wrote:NFL bulls who only perform clumsy simple tasks for a few seconds at a time,
8O

That's a pretty brutal misrepresentation of the athletic skills of a football player. You don't think the raw athletic talent of the average NFL WR, DB, RB, TE or QB could be the foundation of an exceptional soccer player?

I appreciate the difference between quick-twitch and endurance athleticism, but to a large extent this is what development is all about. If you took 500 players with Dexter McCluster's athletic ability (I'm using him because he was about league average by Football Outsider's main metric, but you can pick whomever) I'm pretty confident we could turn out some reasonably good soccer players if his football development was replaced with futbol development from Day 1. And given a critical mass of such players, I think that we'd end up with some elite footballers out of that group.
Well yes, but let me out that in context.

Relatively speaking, I think what NFL players spend 95% of their time doing and training for, burst running or cutting and pushing people around away from the ball in highly structured and partitioned plays, are clumsy exercises compared to hitting a baseball or trapping a soccer ball in one touch and weighting a 30 yard pass with your second touch. It's fine motor skills versus gross motor skills. Fine motor skills really mean little for the majority of NFL players who basically never handle the ball, whereas for soccer it's essential. Think of a guy like Julius Thomas, who didn't play football in high school or until his senior year of college, and a few years later is a premier NFL tight end. The notion of doing that in soccer is preposterous, and it's because football skills, even at the top level, don't require nearly as much refinement and could be called clumsy in comparison to soccer.

My second context is, I'm not talking about being able to become reasonably good soccer players. I'm talking WC class elite. The top 0.0001% of guys who play as competitive adolescents.

There's a natural sorting process that happens with youth athletes at a certain age. They naturally gravitate to what sports suit them best, and I believe given even equal opportunity and training opportunities across soccer, basketball and football most professional NFL players would and should continue to choose football because their chances of reaching elite quality are much better in that sport.

No one would ever say "Spain would totally beat the US in American football if our best athletes like Xavi and Iniesta chose football at a young age." Americans are prone to make the inverse of the same statement, and it's just as silly IMO.
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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by Aristo »

If the money was there, MLS ought to be spending a ton trying to develop soccer leagues in the inner city, as baseball is trying to do now. The US is the only place in the world where soccer is a rich kid's suburban sport. The game translates to pick up games and street ball as easily as basketball everywhere else.

And there are multitudes of NCAA basketball players who do not have the height to play in the NBA, but who are still tremendous athletes that could have been awesome soccer players had they started day one. If the MLS ever had street creed, you would see the talent level in the US grow exponentially. But it is going to take a lot of work and money that the MLS doesn't really have right now, to make that happen.

As it is, MLB is importing talent to make up for the lack of African-American players. Baseball is a tough sport to grow in the inner city because it requires more equipment and players to get a game in than basketball and football. Soccer ought to be easy to introduce into the same environment.

But right now, soccer moms are rich white ladies in the suburbs.

What the US needs is for stuff like Every Street United to become more common. That's where the infusion of new talent in the US will come from.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by pk500 »

America has a FAR larger population pool to draw from than many European and South American nations that kick its ass. So there still should be enough athletes left who WANT to play soccer to develop more world-class talent.

You cats can posit all you want about how America needs to funnel its best athletes into soccer to become a world power. And you make some very valid points.

But Aristo is right. No one will EVER shake me of my belief that America will not develop a steady flow of elite skilled players until a pickup soccer culture is developed in this nation. Think about the one "world" sport that America dominates -- basketball. American players are the most skilled and creative because of the pickup culture, whether its "And 1" blacktop games in Rucker Park and other urban areas or playing on a hoop hung on a barn in Iowa.

There is no pickup soccer culture in America other than among immigrant communities. Our kids are placed into rigid AYSO structures from the moment they first strap on shinpads. And for most kids, that's their only exposure to the beautiful game. How many American pre-teens play soccer regularly at the park or in the yard or street with their friends? How many ever touch a ball other than one weeknight practice and Saturday morning games in the local AYSO league? Very few.

Meanwhile, kids in Brazil play beach soccer. They play soccer in the dusty alleys of the favelas with plastic bags full of papers as a ball. They're trying to out-trick each other in informal competitions. They play futsal. Any wonder their players have so much wizardry with the ball on their feet?

American soccer players are the equivalent of Eastern European basketball players, with very few exceptions. We're fundamentally sound, with no flair or exceptional individual skill.

It's not just a "soccer thing." Why do you think Kenyans dominate distance running? It's simple. They live at altitude. Their diets aren't filled with crap. They run BAREFOOT often, which develops the muscles, tendons and ligaments of the foot as a more effective lever for efficient propulsion. And running is part of their lifestyle -- a pickup culture.
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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by wco81 »

I agree about the need for street soccer, though it's still a big hurdle as other sports are magnets for the best athletes. By the time good ones realize they're not good enough for the NBA or the NFL, it may be too late, even though they're only 19, 20, 21, 22 years old.


On basketball, skills-wise, international players can compete, including one-on-one skills. Ginobli is as skilled as any American player of his generation and while he's a good athlete by NBA standards, he doesn't have elite explosiveness -- not that he's needed it.

Where you see the international teams fall short in games against the US is the inability to defend the power game of the US and the wing players' athleticism. Gasol brothers are skilled 7 footers but they don't like to bang and they're not big on defending the rim.


Back to soccer, how do most American players develop? Play NCAA? I think the lack of academies is an issue. Any promising American player with European ties may get snapped up by some European club for their academies, like Green was. But guys like Dempsey and Howard got on EPL clubs but didn't go through any academies? NCAA programs work for developing NFL and NBA players (though NBA doesn't have as much dependence on college basketball as the NFL does on college football), less so for MLB. Seems like NCAA soccer programs are even less relevant to reaching big time soccer clubs.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by Naples39 »

I agree with PK regarding pickup culture. Great NBA players don't come through academies, they're born on the playground, playing with their friends for hours every day for years. Soccer is the same way. When the US, with it's very large population, has million of kids who just spend countless hours playing with friends day and day out, the talent will come out of the woodwork.


Anyone, these discussions are something of rabbit holes. Regarding my thoughts on this USA squad:

-We never really saw the team Klinsmann wanted. The team was crafted to play with a target striker, and Altidore was the only one on the roster.

-The team we did see wasn't very good. They really only had one quality performance, versus Portugal. Credit to the team for gutting out results, but Ghana, Germany and Belguim did whatever they pleased against us, and an invisible midfield. A two man attack of Bradley and Dempsey was woefully insufficient, and the USA got absolutely nothing in attack or possession from wide midfielders the entire tournament. The absence of Donovan was glaring and ultimately indefensible IMO.

-Major props to Jermaine Jones and Tim Howard. Jones was all over the field every game, and at the center of most good things. I personally thought Howard's performances the last two cups were underwhelming, but he was nearly impeccable and occasionally spectacular this cup. Lastly, very good stuff from Johnson, Besler and Gonzalez. Dempsey scored goals, and popped up sporadically, but his cheeky play style was very ill suited when playing alone up top.

-Next cycle will be interesting. Way too early to make real predictions, but really the only key players who will presumably age themselves out of a spot are Jones, Dempsey, and possibly Howard. A few more years for guys like Green, Brooks, Boyd, Agudelo, Gil could do wonders, although I don't follow American soccer as I used to.
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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by 10spro »

pk500 wrote:Meanwhile, kids in Brazil play beach soccer. They play soccer in the dusty alleys of the favelas with plastic bags full of papers as a ball. They're trying to out-trick each other in informal competitions. They play futsal. Any wonder their players have so much wizardry with the ball on their feet?.
And that's how I picked up my street footie when I was as young as four in the outskirts of Buenos Aires. Made up paper balls, the metal cap when you open a bottle of coca cola, a little harmless rock, all that played under less that ideal road conditions. All the central parks of SA are populated by kids imitating their idols playing soccer, while the casual pedestrian can still enjoy their walks.

All valid points PK, I would also add that the weather is a also big plus for those nations that live and breathe soccer. In NA, our winters just wouldn't be appropriate except for some places in FLO.

Culture is indeed part of developing good soccer players. It's why I continue to watch SA leagues, they may not be as appealing as a BBVA or EPL stuff nor will they ever compete with the shower of money that those leagues receive every season.

But in SA, I see a lot of skills, a lot of hungry kids with a creativity that's unmatched in other places. In NA when a kid is born we show them a baseball, a basketball, football. On the contrary a round #5 is presented to a kid born in SA.

James Rodriguez was already a very talented player playing in the Argentinian league before he was transferred to Porto and eventually Monaco. I saw this kid when he was around 18, 19 playing for Banfield and I knew he was something special. Many people just heard of him now during this WC.

They get snatched up so fast these days to Europe. But I will go back to the culture, it starts from there.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by RobVarak »

Street ball is important, but don't underestimate the top-down effect that having millions of dollars invested at all levels of the game creates.

Those kids might play street ball, but they are discovered, developed and progress through an incredibly sophisticated and efficient (and of course, sleazy and underhanded) network of scouts, agents, parents, AAU coaches, junior high and HS coaches and college coaches, all of whom are underwritten by boosters and shoe company money.

By comparison, the soccer development network is strung together with bailing wire and bubble gum. I'm sure if you go back four years you'll see me making this same point, but we're the only country in the world that requires that our best soccer athletes subsidize their own development. MLS academies are starting to gain a foothold, but they're still miles behind the travel clubs that constitute the bulk of the development system.

Even more insidiously, the travel clubs need to win to attract kids and satisfy the parents writing the checks. This means our U12-U16 kids are learning exactly the wrong way: specializing too early, playing (in the literal sense) too little and being driven to achieve results rather than developing their individual skills. The result? Players who work their ass off for the team, who can get a result but who ultimately pale in comparison to the soccer elite because they lack the technique of world class players.

2 15 year-old boys. One great at hoops, the other soccer. The basketball player will be recruited by an AAU coach, a HS coach and possibly street agents, all of whom will be giving him opportunities to play at progressively higher levels of the game at little or no cost to him and his family (and possibly even enriching it) .

The soccer playing kid might get lucky and get swooped up by an MLS academy, but the odds are against that. He'll need to be playing for one of the regional mega-travel clubs. He will need to find someone to pay many thousands of dollars for him to get access to the best competition and instruction, and that instruction will be the complete inverse of the AAU model.

The USSF has been aware of this for a long time. Their publications on youth development expressly try to stop this sort of problem, but they fall on deaf ears. Most of the travel teams in these parts have boys as young as 10 already specializing on the field, and if a travel club gets poor results over a season the horrible helicopter parents will drop it in a heartbeat for a hot, new option that wins games.

So what I'm saying is that street ball is nice, but there is a systemic problem that's even bigger than that. Look again at that Belgium piece I linked to a while back. Now that's a tiny, tiny country, making it so much easier, but they understood that to change the soccer culture of a nation and produce an elite national team you have to change the way players are recruited and taught. We're a much larger and diverse nation, but that doesn't change the fact that our national soccer DNA relies on the same thing.

Edit: Realized I didn't even get into what a cancer the NCAA is when it comes to soccer, but it's late... :oops:
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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by XXXIV »

One more angle....

I played in HS. Was not considered cool at all.

The girlies were NOT impressed at what sport I had received my letter.

It was american football, basketball, baseball or bust where I went.

It was like this late 70s early 80s and I am thinking its much the same now....No cheerleader for you if you play soccer. :P

Though I did wind up with a couple of cheer leaders anyway. :)

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by 10spro »

Allez Les Bleus! Benzema gotta play in the middle, that's where he's been most effective and Valbuena try to take the midfield control from Muller. This is a much cohesive French team, we'll see if they can surprise the Germans.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by XXXIV »

Deutschland !

Hoping for a great game!

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by 10spro »

XXXIV wrote:Deutschland !

Hoping for a great game!
We'll see how some guys perform the 90 minutes as many were under the flu bug. Surprised they started Klose.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by 10spro »

Both teams with chances, Germany has to do a better job of protecting the CB's, that's where the French team has been most dangerous and Neuer can't afford to jump out as he did with Algeria. Not with Giroud and Benzema sniffing around.

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Re: World Cup 2014 Thread

Post by XXXIV »

Looked to me like Germany was in control til the last few minutes when some lazy passing gave France chances on the counter.

Linesman not a fan of offsides which is not that bad a thing yet.

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