NFL Season 2011-2012

[greggsand]

The thing is people who think Tebow is terrible will never admit they are wrong. For example, if Tebow ends-up losing his next 15 games and gets cut, the Tebow supporters (like me) will have to admit "yeah, I guess he wasn't good after all" and the critics will say "told ya!".

But there is nothing Tebow could do to get a Tebow critic to admit they were wrong. The Broncos could win the superbowl this year, and Tebow critics will continue to site defensive stats, points per game, etc... I can't envision a situation where a Tebow critic says "I was wrong".

[Brando70]

People can talk TOP and intangibles and a lot of other meaningless stuff but the simple fact is that there are three primary measures of whether an NFL offense is successful:

1) Points scored
2) Yards gained
3) Number of turnovers

Since Tebow took over, the Broncos have gone down slightly in points scored during the games Tebow started and up only 9 yards per game in total offense since he took over. The switch to Tebow has made a significant change in 3; fewer turnovers have undoubtedly helped the defense because they are not starting with bad field position as much as they did under Orton.

If people want to root for Tebow, by all means, root for Tebow. I have a long list of players I have rooted for simply because I liked the player. I once uttered the phrase, "The Bears should keep starting Craig Krenzel because they are winning with him at QB."

But this Joe Morganish attempt by Tebow supporters to use all kinds of unmeasurable attributes (moxie, intangibles, inspirational power of smile) as some sort of metric for the teams success, or the elevation of minor stats that have no real causation on winning (QB win-loss record, time of possession, number of genuflections per game) is really, really annoying.

Are they better with him at QB than Orton? Yes, by virtue of turnovers. Are they are a good offense with Tebow? Not really. Could the Broncos achieve the same results with just about any highly mobile QB who can occasionally complete a pass? Probably. Tebow is doing nothing special. He is protecting the football, managing the game, and contributing 50 fewer total yards per game than Orton did.

[Wilk5280]

You lost me at TOP being meaningless. Rest of post is moot

[Danimal]

LOL this is pointless.

What else do you want me to say, enjoy it. If you think he is a legit starting QB to carry your NFL team for the foreseeable future WTF do you care what I think. The Broncos have some magic going on, maybe they will make the playoff's, maybe do even better then that. Hell with their remaining 5 games they could easily go 4-1.

Again I'm not a Denver fan. If you all think you have your franchise QB of the future and I must assume that is the case for all these people to be sticking up for him so steadfastly then just enjoy the wins.

It's also refreshing to see that it will only take 15 straight loses for the Tebow supporters to say "my bad" must be a long line of tolerance in Denver

BTW I promise if Denver wins the Superbwol with Tebow I will admit my misguided ways. I just hope they still let me in heaven with my evil tongue.

[Brando70]

The thing is people who think Tebow is terrible will never admit they are wrong. For example, if Tebow ends-up losing his next 15 games and gets cut, the Tebow supporters (like me) will have to admit "yeah, I guess he wasn't good after all" and the critics will say "told ya!".

But there is nothing Tebow could do to get a Tebow critic to admit they were wrong. The Broncos could win the superbowl this year, and Tebow critics will continue to site defensive stats, points per game, etc... I can't envision a situation where a Tebow critic says "I was wrong".

This is precisely the kind of thinking that is so backwards when it comes to Tebow. "The stats are a lie!"

Tebow is averaging 145 yards per game total. Donovan McNabb averaged 170 yards passing. McNabb also had as many turnovers (2) as Tebow, although McNabb only lasted six games. And McNabb completed 15% more of his passes than Tebow.

Now, McNabb is considered to have had a TERRIBLE season. The worst of his career. Yet Tebow, who is the same or worse across the board except in TDs scored, is considered to be responsible for the Broncos winning streak.

"But he wins games." QB records are a meaningless stat, and anyone who argues the opposite should stop talking before they swallow their tongue. NFL history is littered with hall of fame QBs who played on losing teams and winning teams that had mediocre QBs.

I don't think Tebow is terrible or has no value. He is good at what he does. Likewise, stats don't tell the whole story. But they certainly tell a significant portion of the story. Tebow is a moderately better version of Troy Smith with better PR and a coach who was willing to change his gameplan to fit Tebow's abilities. Kudos to the Broncos for winning. But until their offense starts scoring more points, I am not a believer, because that's what an offense's job is, and the Broncos offense is not scoring many points.

[Brando70]

You lost me at TOP being meaningless. Rest of post is moot

I did not say meaningless. I said it has no real causation on winning. PPG is a more accurate factor. Six of the teams in the top half of the league in ToP have losing records. Only two do in PPG.

If you look at the bottom rankings, there are five teams in the bottom 12 in ToP that have winning records, including two division winners. Looking at PPG, only two teams in the bottom 12 have winning records, and those are both the Titans and Broncos at 20 and 21. Every team below Denver in PPG has a losing record.

The bottom line is that effective offenses score. The Denver offense since Tebow has actually scored slightly less. Again, they are better off with him than Orton, but the idea that this is a good offense or that they are winning because of Tebow is simply not supported by anything resembling evidence other than a W-L record that could be the product of dozens of factors.

It will be interesting to see how they play against the Vikings. They are a bad team but have been pretty good against the rush. The Broncos have only faced one decent rush defense during Tebow's starting tenure (the Dolphins).

[Brando70]

It's also refreshing to see that it will only take 15 straight loses for the Tebow supporters to say "my bad" must be a long line of tolerance in Denver

Dan, we gave up on Peter Tom Willis way too early!

[pk500]

I think this may have been said previously in this thread, but let's face reality: If Terrelle Pryor transformed Denver's offense into an option-style attack and engineered this run of success, this story wouldn't be embraced nearly as warmly and fuzzily by the nationwide media and fans as Tebow's tale.

Tebow is a white, God-loving dude who builds hospitals in The Phillippines and whom every mother would want to marry her daughter. Pryor is a black thug, all because he sold college memorabilia at Ohio State. White-hatted hero. Black-hatted villain.

That would be the narrative created by the national media, which is dominated by middle-aged, upper-middle class white dudes. If you deny that, you don't understand the American sports media.

Media and fans love Tebow as much, if not more, for what he represents than for how he's playing. The last successful running quarterback in the NFL was black dog-killer Mike Vick. Tebow is much easier for white America, and the media that feeds it, to hug. He's Roger Goodell's wet dream in shoulder pads.

[Danimal]

Dan, we gave up on Peter Tom Willis way too early!

Haha.

For the record I am officially out of this debate.

I have Hanie and Martz to b*tch about.

[Brando70]

Dan, we gave up on Peter Tom Willis way too early!

Haha.

For the record I am officially out of this debate.

I have Hanie and Martz to b*tch about.

Agreed. Beating KC won't necessarily mean making the playoffs, but losing means that the party is most definitely over.

I am sorry that Cutler won't be in uniform for the return to Denver. The Hand-off of God vs. Pout-ious Pilate would have been a great storyline for the Christmas season.

[TCrouch]

And for the record, I like Tebow. I've never seen a single player usher in so many crazy debates and heated discussions. I want him to do well.

Would I want him on my team? Not a chance. I'd love to see him transform into a decent player, but I don't think he's anywhere near that currently. Actually, I take that back. He's a decent player, but not a COMPLETE player. I don't think you can discount any piece of information about the guy..."meaningless" intangibles or stats or anything. It all gets thrown into the pot, because when it comes to a football team, and your teammates start to believe in you, crazy sh*t happens.

That receiver blocks just a bit harder and doesn't take a play off because they have a chance to win. The line might be a little more focused because they have no freaking clue where he's going to run or what he's going to do.

And don't take this like I'm comparing Tebow to Montana, but you hear the same types of things being said by his teammates now that guys did back when Montana engineered The Drive. Even the Bengals started to feel like Montana was going to beat them. For all the crap and/or undeserved praised heaped upon Tebow, he has this strange knack for putting the team on his back in the final minutes and winning the game for him. And the team believes in him.

...who cares if he's ALSO the reason they were BEHIND for 50 minutes of the game?

I think it's a very entertaining debate, but you'd think some people had serious change invested on whether or not the dude becomes a good QB. It gets seriously venomous when talking about the guy (and I'm talking about other discussions I've seen--this stuff in this thread is tame by comparison).

[Brando70]

On a different subject, I was sorry to hear Chester McGlockton died. Only 42, what a shame. He was such a force during his time with the Raiders.

[TCrouch]

Yeah, Chester was a beast for the greater part of a decade.

On a side note, I was surprised at how inaccurate Hanie was for most of the game against the Raiders. Then I saw this picture on the front page for Don Banks' power rankings:



I think throwing with your eyes closed is probably a bad idea

[greggsand]

I think this may have been said previously in this thread, but let's face reality: If Terrelle Pryor transformed Denver's offense into an option-style attack and engineered this run of success, this story wouldn't be embraced nearly as warmly and fuzzily by the nationwide media and fans as Tebow's tale.

Tebow is a white, God-loving dude who builds hospitals in The Phillippines and whom every mother would want to marry her daughter. Pryor is a black thug, all because he sold college memorabilia at Ohio State. White-hatted hero. Black-hatted villain.

That would be the narrative created by the national media, which is dominated by middle-aged, upper-middle class white dudes. If you deny that, you don't understand the American sports media.

Media and fans love Tebow as much, if not more, for what he represents than for how he's playing. The last successful running quarterback in the NFL was black dog-killer Mike Vick. Tebow is much easier for white America, and the media that feeds it, to hug. He's Roger Goodell's wet dream in shoulder pads.

But wait, is not true that Tebow builds hospitals & Pryor broke NCAA rules that lead to sanctions against his school? You're kinda leading the witness. I mean, if the press wants characterize one as a good-guy, and the other a bad-guy based on their actions - that's not a good comparison. I get what you're getting at, but Pryor has a lot "good" to do before I'm buying my kid a Pryor Raider's Jersey...

And I don't think Vick has much to complain about. He's seems to be well compensated whether old-white-guy america loves him or not.

[XXXIV]

The race thing is interesting since most of the Tebow bashers on tv and radio seem to be a bunch of down trodden and oppressed white people.

I've never seen a single player usher in so many crazy debates and heated discussions.

+1

Makes no sense to me either.

[10spro]

I’m sure some of you reading this would agree that there is no way Tebow would be 5-1 as a starter with his statistics alone. Tebow does deserve credit for leading his team to fourth-quarter comebacks though, but it is because of the strong defense play that he is in the position to make those comeback, guys like Von Miller and E. Dumervil deserve a lot of credit as well. He's got some leadership qualities that obviously has his teammates believing in him. Also a guy like McGahee has benefited from his starter role as he's been getting good yardage because opponents have to respect Tebow on the read option. And at the end of the day, Broncos fans won't care much whether it's the D or Tebow that deserves more credit as long as they keep on winning.

[Inuyasha]

Divot - hey you may not remember me but back when we were posting on SR, I met up with you for lunch in San Mateo when you were working at 2K. Just wanted to give props to Divot, he was a cool guy and really down to earth.

BTW, Divot is a Iraq Desert Storm War Veteran as well! (if I remember correctly)

Well, since I have never worked for 2K nor have I been in the Military, I do believe you have me mistaken with someone else.

LoL, yes I guess I have. I forgot this dsp user name, but the guy I was thinking of worked on 2K baseball for Sega back in the early mid 2000s for KUSH. He probably posts on here.

[vinny-b]

Well, since I have never worked for 2K nor have I been in the Military, I do believe you have me mistaken with someone else.

LoL, yes I guess I have. I forgot this dsp user name, but the guy I was thinking of worked on 2K baseball for Sega back in the early mid 2000s for KUSH. He probably posts on here.

if he really worked on that game, can understand why he decided to be anonymous.

[Danimal]

Pretty sure you guys are talking about FatPitcher (I think that is his handle) who is still on this board and sometimes gives away free boards for Pinball FX so you might want to let up on the dude.

[MizzouRah]

With Vick out, I need antoher week of at least 15 points from Tebow in FF.

[Inuyasha]

Dan - yup that was him, FatPitcher!

[vinny-b]

Dan - yup that was him, FatPitcher!

FatPitcher is good people. Didn't intend any offense

[10spro]

Penalty filled game in SEA but the young D continues to improve weekly as former CFLer B. Browner had an outstanding game with a couple of INT's and M. Lynch had another great run against the Eagles. Hope they can re-sign #24 during the off-season as the team continues to rebuild. The D held in tough against V. Young.

[Brando70]

Wow the Eagles are terrible. Even if Reid doesn't get fired, I think he needs to step down. When you have that much talent and that bad of a record, that's a big reflection on the coaching. The injuries have hurt but 4-8 is pathetic with this roster.

[Diablo25]

Wow the Eagles are terrible. Even if Reid doesn't get fired, I think he needs to step down. When you have that much talent and that bad of a record, that's a big reflection on the coaching. The injuries have hurt but 4-8 is pathetic with this roster.

Absolutely. It's hard for me to watch the poor tackling and dropped balls. The only positive is the O Line. They are young and talented. I officially hate Desean Jackson too. He's gotta go.