Moderators: Bill_Abner, ScoopBrady
JackB1 wrote:Jack,
I felt so bad that I got that reaction out of you in that recruting thread.
I later realized that by criticising the recruitiung methods, I was indirectly criticising the military and that was not my intent. That's why I'm better off staying away from that stuff. I write stuff and then read it later and think to myself, WTF...what were you thinking. I guess my big mouth is way ahead of my small brain
Jack...I have known some of these "dicks..as you call them" for over 15 years now and some even over 20, going way back to the alt.sports.games newsgroups and have met many great guys who go way beyong the call of duty to help each other out or give friendly advice. I know I should just post whatever and just get over it, but that's not my makeup. When I read your last reply in that now infamous thread, I realized I am better off keeping quiet on certain topics. Seeing how I infuriated you (or at least that's how it appeared) made me recoil in disgust. Who the hell am I to judge? I can never begin to comprehend what you are currently going through and will never understand where you are coming from, but I respect it completely. Please accept my apology. It won't happen again.
I know you have a good heart man. Keep posting your thoughts!!!!I agree!!Spooky wrote:Jack,
Can I just please make one request if you choose to continue posting here:
Please write your responses to peoples quotes AFTER (underneath) their quote!!! Place your beginning cursor at the end of all the text in your reply box!!!
This will make your posts much easier to read so we know what you are replying to before reading your statement.
I guess I can do that (this). thanks for the tip.Spooky wrote:Jack,
Can I just please make one request if you choose to continue posting here:
Please write your responses to peoples quotes AFTER (underneath) their quote!!! Place your beginning cursor at the end of all the text in your reply box!!!
This will make your posts much easier to read so we know what you are replying to before reading your statement.
Jack...nothing would please me more than meeting you for a few brews.JackDog wrote: Jack,no worries brother. No apology needed man. Free speech is what it's all about. The great thing about our forum is we can all vent and get different opinions. It's all good.
Look man,none of us like that damn war. I believe we are all sick and tired of reading about our men and women getting killed. It's hard on anyone that gives a s***. I can tell by the passion of your posts on the subject,that you do. That means a lot to me. And though it seems I am always pissed when I reply to some of your thoughts on the matter,I don't want you to stop posting your opinions. I am a big boy and can take whatever you dish out and still walk away knowing if I am ever in the ATL we can hook up as friends and drink a few beers. In a non gay way of course.
Peace.
I agree!FatPitcher wrote:I've always found your posts entertaining, even if I disagree with your views on almost everything unrelated to Collective Soul. The internet would be a boring place if everyone agreed with me.
Badgun wrote: That being said, have you offered up your opinion yet on Bush's veto of the democrats' bill to get us out of Irag starting Oct. 1st?
Don't lose your passion just because you get kicked in the teeth sometimes-I haven't!tealboy03 wrote:Badgun wrote: Now, there, Jack....just a little gasoline for your fire, buddy...
mixdj1 wrote:That's tough ... maybe when they're all running Linux on their PCs, using Nokia cell phones, and producing world class rally drivers?JackB1 wrote:I respect those who want to "finnish the job", but what is the indicator that the job is finnished?
Then it's time to go fishing with their new Rapala gear.
For the love of Jari Kurri and Teemu Selanne, will you guys cut the sh*t?ScoopBrady wrote:mixdj1 wrote:That's tough ... maybe when they're all running Linux on their PCs, using Nokia cell phones, and producing world class rally drivers?JackB1 wrote:I respect those who want to "finnish the job", but what is the indicator that the job is finnished?
Teal......I really appreciate your response, but you never answered my 2 main questions:tealboy03 wrote:The simplest, best explanation I've ever heard is this:
If we're fighting them there, we don't have to fight them here.
Keeping it on their soil is far preferable to having them bomb us again. And they haven't. As to the stirring of the pot, I couldn't disagree more strongly. Years and years of doing nothing while THEY stirred the pot have finally caught up with them, and us for that matter, and we cannot just go back to simpler days. We are at a war with a bunch of religious zealots, not soldiers, and these guys will NEVER fly the white flag.
I hate war. I wish evil didn't exist, but the fact of the matter is, it does. And we have to deal with it. Placing our heads in the sand, however more comforting that might be, only exposes our asses and cuts off our vision. War is not a perfectly plannable thing. Things happen, things change. The administration's miscalculations were that we were going to win this thing conventionally, and conventionally, we did. We defeated Saddam's 'army' in combat. But now we have these cowards that will never face up to any enemy, because they lack the balls and the skill to do so. So they will strike anonymously, cut the heads off of innocent people, and bomb THEIR OWN PEOPLE in a continuing effort to thwart our will. They are succeeding, unfortunately, at least in the court of public opinion. We don't have the balls for war anymore. We don't have the chutzpah to do what is necessary. We have been desensitized to violence and oversensitized to war. Somehow, we can forget that the same terrorists who killed 3000 people on 9/11, and hundreds more in years preceding, are planting car bombs and IED's in Iraq. The newest catch for the US is another high ranking Al Queda 'general'...and he is an Iraqi citizen.
But more than all of this: We need to win. Those brave souls fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan need to win. They need overwhelming support, immediate and unconditional access to everything they need to crush the opposition, and they aren't getting it. They hear that America no longer supports what they are doing. They, inescapably, take that to mean that America no longer supports them. They have dipshits like Harry Reid saying, on National TV, that 'this war is lost', and asshats like Nancy Pelosi, who has all the time in the world to travel to Syria to talk with terrorist sympathizers and enablers, but no time to hear from a general who may say something positive about the way things are going.
Caught in the middle of all the politics, posturing, and ridiculous rantings, are those soldiers, who, if they wonder why they're there anymore, only do so because they get the impression that no one gives a damn about a mission they are giving their lives for. And that is a crying shame.
So, that's what I think...
We really should be discussing this in a sauna.pk500 wrote:For the love of Jari Kurri and Teemu Selanne, will you guys cut the sh*t?ScoopBrady wrote:mixdj1 wrote: That's tough ... maybe when they're all running Linux on their PCs, using Nokia cell phones, and producing world class rally drivers?
Take care,
PK
JackB1 wrote:Teal......I really appreciate your response, but you never answered my 2 main questions:tealboy03 wrote:The simplest, best explanation I've ever heard is this:
If we're fighting them there, we don't have to fight them here.
Keeping it on their soil is far preferable to having them bomb us again. And they haven't. As to the stirring of the pot, I couldn't disagree more strongly. Years and years of doing nothing while THEY stirred the pot have finally caught up with them, and us for that matter, and we cannot just go back to simpler days. We are at a war with a bunch of religious zealots, not soldiers, and these guys will NEVER fly the white flag.
I hate war. I wish evil didn't exist, but the fact of the matter is, it does. And we have to deal with it. Placing our heads in the sand, however more comforting that might be, only exposes our asses and cuts off our vision. War is not a perfectly plannable thing. Things happen, things change. The administration's miscalculations were that we were going to win this thing conventionally, and conventionally, we did. We defeated Saddam's 'army' in combat. But now we have these cowards that will never face up to any enemy, because they lack the balls and the skill to do so. So they will strike anonymously, cut the heads off of innocent people, and bomb THEIR OWN PEOPLE in a continuing effort to thwart our will. They are succeeding, unfortunately, at least in the court of public opinion. We don't have the balls for war anymore. We don't have the chutzpah to do what is necessary. We have been desensitized to violence and oversensitized to war. Somehow, we can forget that the same terrorists who killed 3000 people on 9/11, and hundreds more in years preceding, are planting car bombs and IED's in Iraq. The newest catch for the US is another high ranking Al Queda 'general'...and he is an Iraqi citizen.
But more than all of this: We need to win. Those brave souls fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan need to win. They need overwhelming support, immediate and unconditional access to everything they need to crush the opposition, and they aren't getting it. They hear that America no longer supports what they are doing. They, inescapably, take that to mean that America no longer supports them. They have dipshits like Harry Reid saying, on National TV, that 'this war is lost', and asshats like Nancy Pelosi, who has all the time in the world to travel to Syria to talk with terrorist sympathizers and enablers, but no time to hear from a general who may say something positive about the way things are going.
Caught in the middle of all the politics, posturing, and ridiculous rantings, are those soldiers, who, if they wonder why they're there anymore, only do so because they get the impression that no one gives a damn about a mission they are giving their lives for. And that is a crying shame.
So, that's what I think...
1- Don't we HAVE to leave at some point? Since we can't control what happens after we leave, won't things turn to sh*t again at some point?
2-What exactly constitutes a "win"?
I am 100% behind you when it comes to defeating Al-Queda and the rest of the islamic extremists, but I don't think that having 90% of our army in Iraq and 1 billion dollars a week spent there is the best way to do it.
tealboy03 wrote:
1-YES, we have to leave at some point. But does a firefighter leave before the fire is put out? And to the other point, it might. At which point the firefighters return to the fire.
>>>>the main argument this admin is making against leaving now, is that when we do, it will turn into chaos. Won't this happen "whenever" we decide to leave? That's why I say, the sooner, the better. It was a 3-headed monster before Sadaam somewhat controlled it and will be one after we leave. There is more terrorist activity there now then before we iunvaded, so common sense says lots of it is just due to us being there.
2-Well, to be honest, a 'win' when it comes to battling against a religion (and that's what it is) that thinks this way, won't be totally won on the battlefield of arms. It will have to be an ideological win, and I don't know honestly if that can happen.
>>>At least you can admit that there is no way any "victory" or "win" can be declared in the not too distant future. That's a lot more than this admin will do, since they keep stessing "not losing". A more realistic view would be to "minimize the damage", but that needs to be on an ongoing basis. I just think there are two choices here......stay permanantly or get out ASAP. I just dont think this admin is being honest to the American people about what has been happening there from the beggining and it's hard to believe what someone tells you when everything to that point has been incorrect.
I would have to agree with you.Jared wrote: Fourth, I won't concede that the only full resolution to the conflict is genocide.
No offense taken-if I can't figure out after all this time that you won't agree with a political viewpoint of mine, then I'm an idiot...Jared wrote:Jack,
For the love of God, learn how the quotes tag works!
Teal,
No offense, but your last two posts are extremely off base. To quickly reply:
The whole "if we're fighting them there, we don't have to fight them here" argument doesn't work. The UK has been fighting in Iraq, and they've been attacked in London. Same with Spain when (I believe) they were part of the coalition.
Second, just because people don't support the war in Iraq doesn't mean they don't support the troops.
Third, you treat terrorists like they're some sort of finite resource that can be sucked into Iraq and exterminated, and ignore the fact that our actions create more terrorists. When people are in horrible situations (e.g. war zones), they tend to be driven to more extreme agendas. (And by the way, I'm not saying that this excuses their behavior.)
Fourth, I won't concede that the only full resolution to the conflict is genocide.
