Interesting point about Miami´s defense against Buffal

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:21 am

I watched ESPN this morning, and John Clayton´s NFL report said Dave Wannstedt broke out the old Bears´ 4-6 defense against the Bills Monday night in certain situations to put pressure on Bledsoe.
 
 Looks like Buddy Ryan´s golden oldie still has life in it.
 
 Interesting ... and painful, from a Bills´ fan´s perspective!
 
 Take care,
 PK

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:42 pm

They were doing all sorts of crazy stuff against your boys. They had Jason Taylor line up next to Zack Thomas as a linebacker and blitzed him up the middle...you don´t see that very often, your DE playing LB and going up the middle behind Chester and Bowens.
 
 The Phins just threw the Bills too many looks...it was a fun game to watch...as a Dolphins fan.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:47 pm

I enjoyed it since I have Miami´s Defense in my fantasy league <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_biggrin.gif">
 
 Sorry, PK <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_frown.gif">
 
 -Matt

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:56 pm

Don´t be sorry Matt...PK was all hyped up for his team, just like the rest of the nation...but one swift ass kicking will get people jumping off the bandwagon like it´s the Titanic.
 
 I haven´t heard anyone say that the Bills are still the team to beat, like they were prior to the Sunday night woopin.
 
 Now everyone is on the Chiefs nuts...I haven´t figured that one out yet. They haven´t even played anyone good yet. The Texans (yes I know Miami lost to them), Pitt and San Diego...those aren´t exactly playoff calibur teams this year. Although Buffalo didn´t play anyone before the Dolphins either...Jacksonville, come on, and New England (overrated as usual).

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:28 pm

That´s excellent.
 
 A lot of teams still break it out once and awhile, but most O-coordinators know how to West Coast it to death.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:18 pm

DB:
 
 Big difference between me and the nation: I will NEVER jump off the Bills´ wagon even if it´s stripped to the frame. I´ve been on the Bills´ wagon since 1973 and have a permanent seat on it.
 
 Take care,
 PK

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:26 pm

PK,
 
 I know man...I wasn´t sayin´ you were jumping off, I just find it funny how none of the major sites are on the Bills jock anymore. Same thing happened with the Dolphins after the Texans loss...now they are back on because they beat the Bills. It´s a vicious cycle man.

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:34 pm

As a Dolphin fan, I first gotta remind you that:
 
 "They had Jason Taylor line up next to Zack Thomas as a linebacker "
 
 is inaccurate. It´s ZACH. Okay, now I know I´ll never see anyone mis-spell his name again (and pk gets upset about IGN misspelling *MY* name!).
 
 And PK, as Chris Berman likes to say : "No one circles the wagons, like the Buffalo Bills".
 
 Here´s to hoping for a Dolphins sweep anyway.
 
 Randy

Steelerfan2k1 · Post by **Steelerfan2k1** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:35 pm

Jesus DB! Did you have a bad life experience in Pittsburgh or something? First you were ending Pitt´s season on SR, now the Steelers lose to the Chiefs and we´re out of the playoffs?:
 
 "The Texans (yes I know Miami lost to them), Pitt and San Diego...those aren´t exactly playoff calibur teams this year."
 
 Ya - the Steelers are 2-1, they´ll be lucky if they win 3 games this year.
 
 Ya - after losing in overtime, on the road, in the divisional playoffs last year - we´re basically the same calibur as Houston and the Chargers.
 
 Sure - we´ll lose a few games (I even have a bad feeling about this weekend) - but, in our division, I think it´s a bit early to rule out the playoffs....
 
 That´s it man - I´m gunning for all Miami teams from now on - especially since you no longer have the services of former Pitt QB Dan Marino (although the Dolphins are slightly redeemed by the fact that former Pitt coach and Pittsburgh-native Dave Wannstedt is still running your squad).

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:34 pm

Nope...just don´t like the two guys I know in real life who are die hard Pitt sports fans. I guess my frustration with them carries over. I should be thanking you Pitt sports fans though because it´s you guys who sent the Braves to the World Series a couple times because Bonds throws a 15 hopper to home trying to throw out a slow ass Sid Bream. God Bless Fransisco Cabrera. [ This message was edited by: dbdynsty25 on 24-09-2003 20:35 ]

Steelerfan2k1 · Post by **Steelerfan2k1** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:48 am

I always remember that play every time I hear people making ridiculous claims about Bonds being the greatest player of all-time.
 
 While he is definitely one of the greatest hitters of all time, he just hasn´t made enough big plays in the most crucial situations to even warrant consideration for "greatest player" status. This is why I always laugh when I hear about him trashing Babe Ruth. Meanwhile - if the Babe could talk back - he would be mocking Bonds about never getting a ring - despite having numerous chances...
 
 The Francisco Cabrera hit still sickens me. I still remember my Dad leaping up and screaming in disgust...

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:34 pm

In the midst of my customary yawn while reading about how Bonds (or any superstar) isn´t "clutch", I remembered a fun fact.
 
 In 1926, Babe Ruth was thrown out trying to steal second base to end Game 7 of the World Series. The Yanks were down 3-2 with Bob Meusel up and Lou Gehrig on deck! Not the most "clutch" play, I think. In fact, one of the most infamous.
 
 Bonds will never be the greatest player ever simply because Ruth was an all-star (and possibly HoF-worthy) pitcher BEFORE becoming one of the three best hitters who ever lived.
 
 But judging players based on rings or performance in allegedly clutch situations is just silly. Sample size, gentlemen. Sample size!
 
 But as for this statement:
 
 he just hasn´t made enough big plays in the most crucial situations to even warrant consideration for "greatest player" status.
 -----------
 
 I think we can agree that the post-season is the most important of situations.
 
 He has now had 144 post-season at bats, a fairly nice sample size, but still not ideal.
 
 Bonds has a career OPS of .939 in the post-season, including a ridiculous 1.294 SLG in last year´s WS. That´s right in line with his career OPS of 1.023, especially when adjusting for the improved pitching quality in the post-season.
 
 Anyway, if you don´t want to consider Bonds in the running for greatest player status that´s fine. But don´t exclude him on grounds that aren´t true. [ This message was edited by: RobVarak on 25-09-2003 09:35 ]

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:22 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2003-09-25 05:48, Steelerfan2k1 wrote:
 The Francisco Cabrera hit still sickens me. I still remember my Dad leaping up and screaming in disgust...
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 I still remember my dad and I jumping up and screaming in delight. Damn what a great game that was, regardless of who won it.
 
 Bonds is still one of the best players in the game...I agree that you can´t discount him because of his ´clutch´ performances. You also have to take into account who he´s had around him to help him out. Porn stache Jeff Kent? Bobby Bonilla? Come on.
 
 The only thing that holds Bonds back is his arm...if he had a stronger throwing arm and had a few more assists per year I think people would think differently of him...now he´s just a second tier outfielder in terms of defensive ability.
 
 My boy Andruw, Torri Hunter, Mays and Jr. (10 years ago) are obviously head and shoulders above that tier...on their own little platform.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:54 pm

db wrote: My boy Andruw, Torri Hunter, Mays and Jr. (10 years ago) are obviously head and shoulders above that tier...on their own little platform
 ----------------------------------------------------------
 
 Absolutely, but they *are* CF´s, and that´s a whole different breed from the corner guys. I don´t have his Win Shares handy, b/c I´d like to see what % of his historical Win Shares came from defense. But using the flawed, but standard measures, in all non-throwing related metrics, he´s been better than average throughout his career.
 
 His career fielding % is .983 compared to the league´s .979. And his Range Factor is 2.09 to the league´s 1.81.
 
 As you´d expect, his best defensive years are well behind him, but for the bulk of his career he was substantially above average (and in some years way above) in the field.
 
 Granted his arm is relatively weak. I don´t have league average assist number handy, but he hasn´t had more than 10 since 1997. He did have a few years in the teens early in his career, but like most LF´s his arm is the weakest part of his game.
 
 One thing that doesn´t get as much attention these days is what an excellent base stealer he was. Everyone knows the raw numbers are huge, but what´s more impressive is his success rate. Coming into the year he had 493 steals and was only caught 140 times. 77% is an excellent rate and well above the break even point for intelligent stealing.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:08 pm

Rob,
 
 I, in now way, was bashing Bonds for his fielding. I think he is a great outfielder. I was simply stating that the reason he doesn´t get "best player ever" recognition is because he had an average throwing arm. He doesn´t throw a ton of guys out and if he does it´s because guys aren´t afraid to run on him (i.e. Sid Bream).
 
 There is a reason all of the best defensive players with the cannon arms play Center field (with exceptions, Ichiro, Vlad nowdays), it´s because they are the best defensive guys. That was my only point.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:14 pm

db,
 
 Agree with that. Traditionally LF is the dog pound, while the best pure arm is in right and the best range/overall defender is in Center.
 
 Teams are getting away from this more and more though, as the imbalance in offensive and defensive value is encouraging them to use guys like Berkman in CF.

Steelerfan2k1 · Post by **Steelerfan2k1** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:06 am

Wait - I hope you´re not comparing Ruth getting caught stealing in a World Series game with Bonds not being able to throw out one of the slowest runners in baseball with the game on the line in the NLCS. You´ve got to be kidding me...
 
 I love how everyone has forgotten how disappointing Bonds was in Pittsburgh - just because he has developed into an amazing hitter. I guess the fact that we absolutely suck now makes people forget that the Pirates were one of the best teams in baseball starting in 1989 until we "disbanded" after the 1992 season. We had solid starting pitching and a decent bullpen that kept us in games and a lineup that scored runs.
 
 Still though - when it came down to beating the Reds and the Braves - they freaking dominated us - and they absolutely dominated Bonds in the playoffs - owned him, case-closed. You can look at his stats and you can look at the fact that we lost a ton of close games when no one stepped-up.
 
 Since this time - Bonds has been instrumental in taking the Giants to the playoffs a few times and to one World Series. If you want to break out his OBP to convince us that he played pretty well - fine.
 
 My point is - he has been on several teams throughout his career that were in series that were close. Every time - they have fallen short - every single time.
 
 And - let´s face it - this all goes back to his personality and approach to his team. While I may be a bitter Pirate fan, I am not the only person who has brought up that he, at best, adds nothing to the clubhouse - and, in many instances, has been criticized for being a proverbial "cancer." I mean - this is not news - it has been stated and restated many times over.
 
 Bottom line - he is a great player - probably one of the greatest hitters of all-time - who never realized his full potential because unlike people like Reggie Jackson or Pete Rose - he doesn´t have the character to get his team to rally around him.

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:28 am

we need to change the title of this thread or start a new one! I keep looking for Miami/Buffalo goodies and I keep hitting baseball messages! How did we get so off track?! (not that I mind keeping that Buffalo loss on PK´s mind or anything <evil grin>)

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 12:40 pm

Steelerfan,
 
 As a Cub fan who saw abject failure in 1984 and Andre Dawson and Ryne Sandberg thoroughly flop in 1989, I absolutely feel your pain. But as a baseball fan I´m not going to start evaluating players based on voodoo like "clutch performance" and personality. Baseball is a game of streaks and sample size is king.
 
 My Ruth comparison was to show that even great players often crack or act stupidly in key situations. Evaluating them based on those things is unfair and leads to innacurate conclusions.
 
 If anything, Ruth´s mental meltdown (or egotistical adventure) is MUCH, MUCH worse than Bonds´ failure to throw out a lumbering Brave.
 
 Finally, I have to say that this is certainly the first time I´ve ever seen Pete Rose´s name invoked as an example of positive character LOL