360 HD-DVD

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:03 pm

It will be interesting to see how well the HD-DVD add-on sells, because they certainly might end up needing every one. Toshiba has reportedly sold around 35,000 of their HD-DVD players. Even if, as analysts are predicting, Sony is only able to get out half of the 400K units they promised to NA, that still means that in a matter of days Blu-Ray is going to go from being well behind HD-DVD to suddenly having a whopping *ten times* more penetration. Additionally, it has taken more than 6 months to sell those 35,000 and suddenly Blu-Ray is going to be pumped into the consumers hands literally as fast as Sony can crank out PS3s for the forseeable future.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:11 pm

Over 80k PS3s sold in Japan so it may already have eclipsed the installed base of HD-DVD players.

Studios are accelerating their Blu-Ray releases. Disney is suppose to release 4 titles in January on dual-layer discs (50 GB).

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:54 pm

Yeah...but the difference between the Sony and Microsoft model is that you can CHOOSE to use/buy the HD DVD player...you aren't forced to buy it. Which skews the overall penetration...but you can bet that everyone that buys a HD DVD add-on for the 360 will be buying HD DVDs...whereas you can't make that claim with the blue-ray. So I'm sure that was Sony's plan...just being able to say that they have more players out there...the fact of the matter is...how many people will use the PS3 for Blue-Ray dvd viewing? There's no way to get those numbers. You know exactly how many people are using HD DVDs.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:58 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:Yeah...but the difference between the Sony and Microsoft model is that you can CHOOSE to use/buy the HD DVD player...you aren't forced to buy it. Which skews the overall penetration...but you can bet that everyone that buys a HD DVD add-on for the 360 will be buying HD DVDs...whereas you can't make that claim with the blue-ray. So I'm sure that was Sony's plan...just being able to say that they have more players out there...the fact of the matter is...how many people will use the PS3 for Blue-Ray dvd viewing? There's no way to get those numbers. You know exactly how many people are using HD DVDs.

I was thinking the same thing. In the end, though, it doesn't matter how many players of either are sold or are in homes. The only sales number that matters, and will determine the winner of this format war, is movie sales.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:47 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:Yeah...but the difference between the Sony and Microsoft model is that you can CHOOSE to use/buy the HD DVD player...you aren't forced to buy it. Which skews the overall penetration...but you can bet that everyone that buys a HD DVD add-on for the 360 will be buying HD DVDs...whereas you can't make that claim with the blue-ray. So I'm sure that was Sony's plan...just being able to say that they have more players out there...the fact of the matter is...how many people will use the PS3 for Blue-Ray dvd viewing? There's no way to get those numbers. You know exactly how many people are using HD DVDs.

Everything you say is correct of course, but it's already been proven by the Japanese PS2 launch that there is a pretty big crossover between movie watchers and video game players... not that it was some huge leap of logic to make that connection anyway. We're not talking about putting a Blu-Ray player on a sewing machine.
In the end it doesn't matter how the Blu-Ray player got in the living room, just that it's there. You're right when you say we don't know the buyer's intention... so a pure gamer could buy a PS3 and have no intention of buying any Blu-Ray discs. However, he won't be buying any HD-DVDs either. When and if he does decide to upgrade from DVD, what's he going to choose, the format he's already got in house or go out and drop a five hundred on yet another box to put under his TV? For all intents and purposes, when you buy a PS3 you choose Blu-Ray over HD-DVD... whether you do it actively or passively. At least until HD-DVD gets more into an impulse buy price range.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:01 pm

MS didn't design their system the way they did to offer people a choice on whether to buy into the next-gen DVD.

They wanted a year head-start on Sony and last year, blue-laser drives, movies and other infrastructure needed to build these products simply wasn't ready.

If they wanted to prepare their design to easily adopt HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, they would have made it easy to user-swap the DVD drive for a blue-laser drive, so that you wouldn't have this big dongle with its own power adapter thing, all hanging by cords. After all, MS was touting how hard they worked on the design to the make the thing appear attractive instead of the big black Xbox.

Oh and they certainly would have put in HDMI from the start, so that you wouldn't have to look hard for displays which take 1080p over component and VGA.

What happened was MS got right in the middle of the format war, because Blu-Ray was getting all the support from the hardware companies and the support of almost all the major studios. They had claimed to be neutral in the format war but then set their stake on HD-DVD the very week Warner Brothers, one of the early stalwarts on the HD-DVD side (they have patents in DVD and HD-DVD), decided to support Blu-Ray in addition to HD-DVD.

MS feared Blu-Ray was about to put away HD-DVD, which would mean the Blu-Ray drive on the PS3 would be a huge advantage. So they jumped in and cited some nonsense about HD-DVD having more "consumer-friendly" DRM/copy-protection. The truth was, both formats use the same AACS copy-protection technology. And now that players have shipped on both sides, nobody is yet supporting managed-copy or mandatory managed copy yet.

So MS is trying to bolt HD-DVD support to the X360 after not designing the console for it in the first place. They're spinning it as giving you a choice. Sony played into it by pricing the PS3 so much higher, which allows MS to claim they're offering a choice.

Again, if MS eventually replaces the DVD and puts HD-DVD in all X360s (after they redesign using cooler chips) and even puts out games on HD-DVD, will they be "forcing" people to get HD-DVD drive?

Did Sony not offer gamers a choice with the built-in CD-ROM in the PS1 or the built-in DVD-ROM in the PS2? Those media had never been used in gaming consoles before Sony offered them. Oh, correction, Sega put out Sega CD add-on but they didn't claim it was a choice. But it was like $400 and it was one of the things which started Sega's downfall.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:13 pm

wco81 wrote: Again, if MS eventually replaces the DVD and puts HD-DVD in all X360s (after they redesign using cooler chips) and even puts out games on HD-DVD, will they be "forcing" people to get HD-DVD drive?

I can't see M$ doing it... it would just create a big mess. I think they feel the hardware is fine as is.

wco81 wrote:Did Sony not offer gamers a choice with the built-in CD-ROM in the PS1 or the built-in DVD-ROM in the PS2? Those media had never been used in gaming consoles before Sony offered them. Oh, correction, Sega put out Sega CD add-on but they didn't claim it was a choice. But it was like $400 and it was one of the things which started Sega's downfall.

Well, there was the 3DO of course... and the SuperGrafx played CD-ROMS before any of them, though it wasn't solely a CD system.

This is a perfect segway for a link I ran across the other day about the original Playstation hardware... made me dig in my closet to check the model numbers of the two I have:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15484873

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:24 pm

In my opinion, there's a big difference between the PS2's DVD capabilities and the PS3's Blu-Ray: everyone I know wanted a DVD player at that time. I don't know anyone clamoring for either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

I think my old PS1 is the SCPH-1001, wonder if they'll be worth much one of these days.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:21 am

The HD-DVD might not be the greatest thing for consumers currently, (too many good games coming out) but it's a great business decision by Microsoft. If HD-DVD loses eventually to Blu-Ray, it's no loss to them. If Blu-Ray fails, Sony has another dead format they'll try and continue pushing on the PS3 until it gets them into the "proprietary losers" category yet again.

LAking · Post by **LAking** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:53 pm

Everything you say is correct of course, but it's already been proven by the Japanese PS2 launch that there is a pretty big crossover between movie watchers and video game players... not that it was some huge leap of logic to make that connection anyway. We're not talking about putting a Blu-Ray player on a sewing machine.

No comparison. DVDs were already the standard when the PS2 came out. ANYONE who bought a PS2 could hook it up to a SDTV and see the benefits of a DVD (extra features, better picture quality, PQ does not degrade after many viewing, etc.). Only people who have an HDTV will be able to benefit from a blue ray or HD-DVD player and that's assuming they want to buy their collection over again and risk having to buy those movies a THIRD time if Blue-Ray loses the format war. You are comparing apples to oranges.

What's nice about the HD-DVD add on is the simple fact that if you don't have an HDTV or just don't see much of a difference between SD and HD movies than you aren't forced to pay that extra $200 for the technology you won't even use.

EDIT: and i would love to see some statistics on the percentage of 360 owners who have an HDTV. Anyone have those? It's obviously a little too early for the PS3 numbers.

vader29 · Post by **vader29** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:17 pm

Well I got impatient and cancelled my online order for this and bought one in store last weekend and while the picture quality is nice, it isn't as huge of a step up from regular dvd as I thought it would be, keeping in mind that I only have the King Kong movie that came with it to go by. Takes about a minute for the movie to load up to the menu before you can watch anything, it also slows the bootup of the 360 as well.

I asked my local Hollywood Video if they would be getting any hd dvds in to rent soon and their reply was no because they are too expensive and there isn't enough demand for them. So with that being the case my unit is getting returned this weekend.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:57 pm

I also picked one up since they were in short supply. King Kong looked better then a standard DVD, MI-3 Looked downright awesome. I'm going to make use of netFlix's to watch HD-DVD's but truth be told I should have waited on this. It was an impulse gadget buy and while it has a few cool features, I'm not sure it is worth the money to move up to HD or Blue Ray at this point.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:45 pm

I just hooked it up, it was a cake to go thru the setup, and I agree, I was looking for something outstanding in terms of visuals, and although King Kong looks better than my regular copy, it wasn't the jump I was led to believe. I am looking for other HD movies to compare, I am currently using the 1360 X 724 setting I believe.

Now I couldn't get my controller to speak to my Bravia so I need the code so they read off each other. The instructions state that you should press TV & OK for 2 seconds and then press the CH/PG button to send the signal to my TV, but nothing doing.

What settings are you guys using?

vader29 · Post by **vader29** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:36 pm

10spro wrote: Now I couldn't get my controller to speak to my Bravia so I need the code so they read off each other. The instructions state that you should press TV & OK for 2 seconds and then press the CH/PG button to send the signal to my TV, but nothing doing.

What settings are you guys using?

I couldn't get it to automatically recognize the remote by doing it that way either, I had to manually enter my tv code from this page: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/syste ... lcodes.htm

F308GTB · Post by **F308GTB** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:45 pm

Thanks for the impressions. My biggest concern about HD-DVD or Bluray is the potential minimal upgrades over regular DVD. I'm not convinced that the public is ready to replace movie libraries for a format with marginal improvements over what you get now. I personally think Bluray and HD-DVD will go the way of SACD and DVD-Audio.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:58 pm

Thanks Vader.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:17 am

F308GTB wrote:Thanks for the impressions. My biggest concern about HD-DVD or Bluray is the potential minimal upgrades over regular DVD. I'm not convinced that the public is ready to replace movie libraries for a format with marginal improvements over what you get now. I personally think Bluray and HD-DVD will go the way of SACD and DVD-Audio.

That may indeed happen. Or it may got the way of the Laser Disc.

But it's not just a minimum upgrade over DVD.

You need a good screen to get the full benefits. A lot of CRT-based HDTVs come nowhere close to resolving 1920x1080 pixels. And a lot of DLP, LCD and plasma are not even supporting 1080p.

Now 1080p displays are just coming out.

The reaction on AVS is far more enthusiastic but then again, most of those guys have spent thousands or maybe tens of thousands for their displays.

I've heard a respected guy say the difference on seeing these HD formats on say a 1366 x 768 display versus a 1080p display is like the difference between VHS and DVD.

laurenskye · Post by **laurenskye** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:52 am

So if my TV only supports 1080i/720p is it worth it to get VGA cables for the 360 to play at 1080p and the tv downconvert, or would this be the same as component 1080i? Can you even get a benefit from HD DVD if your tv doesn't support 1080p?

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:50 am

laurenskye wrote:So if my TV only supports 1080i/720p is it worth it to get VGA cables for the 360 to play at 1080p and the tv downconvert, or would this be the same as component 1080i? Can you even get a benefit from HD DVD if your tv doesn't support 1080p?

The 360 sends 1080p through component, but many displays that are 1080p either don't accept 1080p signals at all, or only through HDMI. If your display doesn't accept 1080p, then you get a black screen when you choose that resolution in the dashboard system blade.

DVDs are 480i, so it stands to reason if you see a difference on your display from the 480i NBC affiliate, for example, and the HD version of that channel, then you would see a difference from DVD and HD-DVD. It's not just better in terms of resolution, either. Much like the difference between 480i television and HD TV, there are more colors, there is more color depth, there is more dynamic range from balck to white, and so on. There are also a lot of additional functions with the HD disc formats (like menus you can access while the movie is playing rather than having to stop, for example).

Finally, there are much better sound formats on the HD discs, such as 'True Dolby,' which provide a much better audio playback. This is the biggest drawback to the 360's HD-DVD add on not having HDMI or individual analog outs; the 360 only sends out a DD5.1 signal, so you can't benefit from the superior audio formats that are on the disc. Of course, without individual analog outs for each channel, one would need an audio receiver that can accept HDMI and decode these newer audio formats, so for me at least this isn't nearly as big a deal as the increase in picture quality and the other features (even though I am a DVD-Audio and SACD enthusiast, and surely would tell the difference, I'm not ready to spend money on a new receiver just yet, so I'm not clamoring for 360 to have HDMI! I wouldn't mind if it had analog audio outs, though. . . .

)

To get the absolute best possible picture from a BRD or HD-DVD, you would need to have a large 1080p display. Most agree that below 50" or 46" size sccreens there is little to no difference from 1080p and 1080i, or even 1080i and 720p. Once you get into the larger screens, like front projectors, you would notice the difference more readily. But again, that's just talking about resolution, not color depth or dynamic range or any of the additional functions.

To me, the biggest reason it's perceived to be not as great a leap as from VHS to DVD is more due to the digital factor. Going from VHS to DVD meant a lot more than just better image and sound quailty, it also meant leaping into the world of digital access: no rewinding, instant access of any chapter, additional audio tracks for commentary, etc. etc. That and the big difference in size and bulk (the VHS through the mail never quite took off like NetFlix). As we go from DVD to the HD formats, there isn't a great a leap in convenience or access. However, much like with the 360, it's hard to grasp whether or not the additional features, like accessing menus while the movie is playing, are helpful to you or not, until you've tried them out. One more thing: not all releases on these formats are as good as others. Without the audio aspect, and with a not-so-good HD-DVD, the difference from DVD might not be so great, but with a well-authored HD-DVD and a decent sound system it should be clearly evident.

Airdog · Post by **Airdog** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:53 pm

PRE-AMBLE: ALL PRICES QUOTED ARE CDN$.

Yeah, I was about to mention that most people here probably don't have a 1080p display to see the absolute best difference. Does anybody here have one?

I've noticed that they're started to drop a ton, with Sharp taking a fairly aggressive stab with very reasonable pricing. Their 42" 1080p LCD display is regularly $2599.99 and I've noticed it's going on sale this weekend where I work for $2299.99, which puts it below the price of a 42" Panasonic plasma (60 series, NOT 600). The Panny when it goes on sale goes for about $2199.99. I think that Sharp will see a fair amount of customers moving towards LCD due to the large screen prices becoming a lot more comparable to plasma, and also because a lot of people are still afraid of plasma.

On a side note, if I find that customers are really hesitant about LCD I will give them a very well written article by Panasonic stating the technical and performance difference between the two technologies in fairly easy-to-read terminology. I absolutely abhor salespeople at other stores who are quick to trash plasma without actually knowing the nature of the technology (most often these people are Sony Store workers who are quick to trash the tech although Sony still makes plasma industrial/business displays and I think one consumer model).

laurenskye · Post by **laurenskye** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:56 pm

Thanks for all the info Zep, but now I'm really confused. From all I've seen you have to go through VGA to get 1080p on the 360. I have a 50" plasma and I'll have to check the actual pixel count but I really just nead to know if it's worth it.

BTW miss playing you guys in the leagues we had

.

laurenskye · Post by **laurenskye** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 pm

So if my TV only supports 1080i/720p is it worth it to get VGA cables for the 360 to play at 1080p and the tv downconvert, or would this be the same as component 1080i? Can you even get a benefit from HD DVD if your tv doesn't support 1080p?

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:00 pm

laurenskye wrote:Thanks for all the info Zep, but now I'm really confused. From all I've seen you have to go through VGA to get 1080p on the 360. I have a 50" plasma and I'll have to check the actual pixel count but I really just nead to know if it's worth it.

BTW miss playing you guys in the leagues we had .

The 360 can pass 1080p through component. This was made possible in the latest update. If your display does not accept a 1080p signal, you will get a black screen when you select that resolution in the systems blade, and five seconds later it will revert to the last resolution it was set to.

VGA will allow you to select from several resolutions, and it can be useful if you want to so-called 'upconvert' standard 480i DVDs to whatever resolution your display accepts. This is not the same as an HD-DVD, however. Since the 360 only passes 480i or 480p through component when playing a DVD, some people prefer the VGA for standard DVDs.

WillHunting · Post by **WillHunting** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:45 am

I don't have a 360, but still very interested in the HD DVD player. Anyone know if it can be used by a computer with driver updates?

Sport73 · Post by **Sport73** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:09 pm

I picked up the HD-DVD drive yesterday with the proceeds from Christmas gift returns to EB and a few trade-ins. Installation is a breeze and the drive is quiet, as has been noted.

I wasn't blown away by the picture quality, I'd put it on par or slightly above a good HD broadcast from CBS on DirecTV, but below that of the sometimes stellar content on HDNet. Still, I bought it as an 'impulse' mainly because I would otherwise have gotten a few games that I could really care less about, and I'm impatient. I'm not that concerned about the format wars because 1) The price was low. 2) It's not as though any discs I buy will cease to play if HD-DVD loses the war. 3) I will use Netflix etc. 4) I actually expect BOTH Blu-Ray and HD-DVD to be failures and for web-downloads to win in the end.

One nice thing is the simple connection, a USB cable to the 360. I had a longer cable than the pack-in handy, so I was able to put the HD-DVD drive in my DVD cabinet instead of below the TV where my 360 is. This is handy for loading discs, and for my wife.

I couldn't check out the disc extras because apparently the ENTER button is different than usual, my HARMONY 880 wasn't sending the right 'OK/ENTER' signal to select anything, but play/pause etc. worked fine. Just something I'll need to update on the remote.

All in all it's a nice, inexpensive upgrade into the HD disc era, but not critical unless you're a tech junkie like me.