Guess who's an NBA fan???

[Kazuya]

To be fair, I'll try to watch a Suns' game sometime. But to be honest, run-and-gun is my least-favorite kind of hoop.

But I'll try sometime.

Out,
PK

It's exactly like the 2001-2004 Mavs, Paul. I doubt it's anything you haven't seen. Nash grabs the ball on a miss or make and takes off like a bat out of hell... he's the fastest point guard in the league from free throw line to free throw line. Phoenix has better finishers than those Mavs did. The Mavs had better three point shooters. Both teams have undersized interior rebounders and defenders. And both teams will end up getting stepped on by the Spurs. It's been done before.

[Leebo33]

Man, Kaz. I just saw your sig. That Smashing Pumpkins song has come up randomly three times on my jukebox this week. Strange.

[Kazuya]

Man, Kaz. I just saw your sig. That Smashing Pumpkins song has come up randomly three times on my jukebox this week. Strange.

It was my initial favorite song off of the album... but as I got older and my experience with the album grew, it got replaced by others (Quiet, Hummer, Soma). But still, it holds a place in my heart... it reminds me of being young, of my then-girlfriend laughing at my goofy Billy impression, of sunny days riding in the car... of just good times in general.

[pk500]

So PK, did you get all hyped up for NBA on NBC in the mid and late-90's, which seemed to feature Knicks vs. Heat every weekend? First team to 70 wins, baby!



I'll take the Suns over that every day of the week.

Nope, because that was bad basketball. But give me Bobby Knight's best motion offense team from Indiana against Pete Carril's best Princeton motion offense team, and then you're talking.

Or as much as it pains me to say it, I also admire Duke's brand of basketball. And Syracuse's awesome 2-3 zone is a joy to watch, too.

Take care,
PK

[lexbur]

Hey man were doing one of those McFamily nights on March 2nd vs. Seattle. We have an extra ticket free of charge if your interested. We can knock a few back watch the Cavs and knock a few back then after the game hit the Flats and knock a few back.

Let me know.

Sounds cool! Thanks!

First round's on me!!!

Check your PM.

[Dave]

If announcers didn't give the Dukies and their fans BJ's while covering them, maybe I could stand them.

I've never had a strong attachment to an NCAA team (despite growing up in Indiana, who I was basically forced to cheer for in my youth) and used to find a player I liked and cheered them on--Ray Allen being an example of that. Now few players stick around long enough to make an impact on me.

I think Knicks-Heat might have single-handedly turned me away from basketball until late in college, when me and some buds had nothing better to do than watch the late games on TNT so we could hear Chuck Barkley during the post-game show.

[pk500]

Dave:

There's absolutely no question that my allegiance to college basketball has been bred by the fact I've lived in Syracuse for all but about six of my 39 years, not including college. And five of those non-Syracuse years were spent in a city only 70 miles away.

Central New York is college hoops country. OK, it's not Tobacco Road, but college hoop borders on religion up here because of SU.

SU hoops is more than a sporting event up here. It forms the core of many people's social lives during the long, snowy winters up here.

Here's an example. My parents have been season-ticket holders for SU hoops for around 30 years. I graduated from college in December 1987 -- a semester late due to illness -- and I had a graduation blowout party at my folks' house in mid-January 1988.

The party was the same night as the Seton Hall-SU game at the Dome. My parents were there for the beginning of the party, enjoying mingling with my friends. At around 7 p.m., they put on their coats, said to me: "Have fun at the party, make sure if anyone gets sick they make it to the toilet. We're going to the game. See you afterward!"

Yep, my parents bolted my graduation party to go to the Seton Hall-SU game at the Dome! And I didn't begrudge them one bit. They were at the party for the beginning and end, and plus it was just a bunch of drunk 21- and 22-year-olds. Not exactly the most stimulating social scene for my folks.

And they live for SU hoops. It brings them a lot of joy, they hang out with a lot of friends at the game, etc., so why should I be mad? Plus they have fifth-row center-court seats at the Dome -- I wouldn't give up those seats, either!

But that just illustrates the pull of SU hoop up here.

Take care,
PK

[wco81]

Nash grabs the ball on a miss or make and takes off like a bat out of hell... he's the fastest point guard in the league from free throw line to free throw line.

Gilbert Arenas.

And he could finish with more authority than most PGs. At least those around his size.

A trainer said Arenas could be a sprinter if he wanted.

[wco81]

Nope, because that was bad basketball. But give me Bobby Knight's best motion offense team from Indiana against Pete Carril's best Princeton motion offense team, and then you're talking.

Then look at the Kings, where Carril has been an assistant for several years since leaving Princeton. They get a lot of assists on those back door cuts as the big men feeds wing players for layups.

Bobby Knight's system, nobody has really tried to implement at the pro level. That's because it doesn't really work that well at the college level any more.

Even coach K, who studied under Knight, is being more flexible to better utilize the blue chip talent he recruits. It's not an accident that most of Knight's players have been stiffs at the next level.

[Dave]

PK, I dig stories like that. The community aspect of sports rarely gets the play it should in most mainstream media when focusing on the costs.

I remember my parents writing me a bogus "Dr. Appointment" pass so I could go watch UConn at the RCA dome in 95's opening round action.

I do think the college game is being forced to be more like the pro game due to the ultimate goal of the most talented players. More run & gun, less motion.

[pk500]

It's not an accident that most of Knight's players have been stiffs at the next level.

Considering I could give three sh*ts about "the next level," I really don't care whether Knight's players are NBA stiffs or not. I still found enjoyment from watching Steve Alford drain jumpers for Indiana. Just because he sucked in the pros doesn't lessen his college accomplishments.

I guess in your mind Archie Griffin was a sh*tty football player because he never panned out in the pros.

Take care,
PK

[Brando70]

My interest in the NBA has come back in the last couple of years. It's been hard, because I was always more of a Bulls fan than a general NBA fan. But the league is definitely finding its groove again. LeBron is just great to watch, the Suns are really exciting, and all-in-all the games seem to have more movement and energy lately. I agree with Scoop, it's helped that the Bulls have started playing competitive basketball again. Once the NFL is done I'm sure I'll be watching a good amount of hoops.

[wco81]

It's not an accident that most of Knight's players have been stiffs at the next level.

Considering I could give three sh*ts about "the next level," I really don't care whether Knight's players are NBA stiffs or not. I still found enjoyment from watching Steve Alford drain jumpers for Indiana. Just because he sucked in the pros doesn't lessen his college accomplishments.

I guess in your mind Archie Griffin was a sh*tty football player because he never panned out in the pros.

Take care,
PK

Well you may not give a s*** but those players did. They went to play for Knight partly because they had the highest aspirations for their careers. That's when he was getting the top talent.

So it's good that they entertained you. But Knight put them in a system which may have prevented them from developing into good pro players. The double-screens were a handicap for players like Alford, who probably wasn't going to be good in the pros anyways.

So while these players made millions for IU and Knight, and gave enjoyment to basketball purists like yourself, they didn't get a chance to develop into the kind of players which would have made them successful in the NBA, which was their goal.

Look at Calbert Cheney, a lottery pick. He was proficient in that system but he can scarcely hit an open jumper in the NBA, let alone create his own shot when the shot clock is ticking down.

But I will say this. Knight has been openly hostile of the NBA game so no top recruit who wants to go to the NBA should be thinking seriously about playing for him. That is probably what's happening now, as Knight is no longer a threat to win the title these days.

[pk500]

Glad to see you're such an altruist toward college basketball players. I'm really touched that you care more about their development as future pros in the NBA while in college than providing quality entertainment to those who enjoy college hoops.

You seem to see college hoops as a developmental farm for the NBA. I see college hoops as a separate, spectacular sport filled with excitement and pageantry on its own, even if few players stay for four years.

The irony of the criticisms of "systems" such as Knight's is that today's NBA players are less schooled in fundamentals than at any time in history. And it's not because they prefer to play more run-and-gun street ball in the NBA than in college, which would be a gross and unfair generalization on my part.

It's because so many players are going to the NBA straight from high school or after a year or two of college and losing anywhere from one to four years of schooling on fundamentals. Players like LeBron -- who are solid fundamentally right out of high school -- are so rare. I still think the majority of guys who leave early still lack in fundamentals and spend the first couple of years in the NBA honing the basics while learning the pro game.

Sure, the NBA is more athletic than ever. But I don't think it's as fundamentally solid, at least among the younger players, as it was 15 to 20 years ago because just about every guy entering the NBA in the 80s was damn close to a finished product in terms of fundamentals when he was drafted due to four years of high-level college ball. One year of college ball or four years of high school ball simply don't train players in basics like four years of college.

I know the idea of a player staying for four years is utopian these days, but look at a polished, finished product like Tim Duncan leaving Wake Forest after four years compared to a raw big man straight out of high school like Jermaine O'Neal, who didn't average five points per game until his fifth NBA season. It took O'Neal that long to hone the basics and learn the game. Plus the move to Indiana sure didn't hurt, either.

Take care,
PK

[wco81]

It's not that I care about their development. It's that they care about it. Or do you doubt that most players who go to big programs are ultimately interested in pro careers? They don't go to schools necessarily to learn fundamentals. They will if it helps them get drafted high. The players do see the college game as a development farm system for the NBA or at least lesser pro leagues around the world.

And the idea that they only learn fundamentals in college is bunk. Most players are taught footwork and have their overall skills developed in the pros, whether they came after 4-years or straight out of HS. Pete Newell's big man camp has been running for years. Yes taught by a college hoops legend but you wonder why players aren't getting schooled in college.

Lebron's game fundamental? I would say he's mature for his age, more willing to pass when he was in HS. But in the pros, it's all about his scoring and athletic ability. He's turned out to be a much better jump shooter than expected and he's a fiercesome finisher because he gets a lot of fast-break opportunities. Jermaine O'Neal is the player he is because of his athletic ability, although if you say it's fundamentals, it's interesting that he could only have developed those fundamentals in the pros, isn't it?

Individual prowess, which in the NBA is about one-on-one/playground skills, and fundamentals are not mutually exclusive. Nor does it mean that playground play can't fit within a team-oriented framework. Good team play doesn't only mean fundamental, high-percentage, backdoor cuts and jumpers off double-picks.

Or do you have a similarly dim view of "creative" soccer players like Pele or Zidane? Or singularly-talented players like Gretzsky or Sanders? Or (Charlie) Parker?

All basketball players, including college players, want to be like Mike. Or in a previous generation, they tried to emulate Clyde, Pearl, Dr. J. Not Cousy, Russell, Bird, who were all great players but didn't capture the imaginations of kids.

And where kids around the world once aspired to be like Pele, a lot of them have posters of NBA players (as well as soccer players obviously), not NCAA players.

It's a shame they're being corrupted by such an "impure" game.

[fsquid]

I'm a Knicks fan and I only really follow them. I keep up with the Grizz some since I live here and they are a source of civic pride. I know I'm the only one who enjoyed the Knicks-Heat games from the 90s!!!

[pk500]

And the idea that they only learn fundamentals in college is bunk.

That wasn't my idea or my point. My point was that instead of learning fundamentals in college, they're forced to struggle a bit in the early years of their careers because they're learning fundamentals there instead of in college. I don't believe for a second that NBA coaches simply roll the ball out and let the guys play. They teach fundamentals, too.

Jermaine O'Neal is the player he is because of his athletic ability, although if you say it's fundamentals, it's interesting that he could only have developed those fundamentals in the pros, isn't it?

How will we ever know? He didn't play college ball. Plus, as I said above, NBA coaches do teach fundamentals. I'm convinced of it.

Or do you have a similarly dim view of "creative" soccer players like Pele or Zidane? Or singularly-talented players like Gretzsky or Sanders? Or (Charlie) Parker?

Every person you mentioned there is an absolute freak of nature. You're using the extreme cases of incredible natural ability to apply to every player who leaves college early. Unfair. Does every player who leaves for the NBA early have the gifts of Jordan or Garnett? No.

All basketball players, including college players, want to be like Mike. Or in a previous generation, they tried to emulate Clyde, Pearl, Dr. J. Not Cousy, Russell, Bird, who were all great players but didn't capture the imaginations of kids.

Bird didn't capture the imaginations of kids? That's interesting. I knew a lot of kids in the 80s who loved Bird.

And where kids around the world once aspired to be like Pele, a lot of them have posters of NBA players (as well as soccer players obviously), not NCAA players.

That's because, if I'm not mistaken, NCAA rules prevent the sales of posters of individual players on college teams. I've never seen any here in Syracuse, and it's been a college hoop powerhouse for the better part of 25 years. Trust me, two years ago there would have been a poster of Carmelo Anthony in his Syracuse uniform in every kid's bedroom in upstate N.Y. if one was available.



Take care,
PK

[fsquid]

You are correct. Memphis almost got hit with a NCAA violation because the school book store carried a "DeAngelo for da Heisman" tshirt. Evidenty you can't make any money off an NCAA players likeness.

[pk500]

And that's the same reason why we never have names with rosters in college sports games!

Stupid, any way you slice it.

Take care,
PK

[wco81]

A lot of players at the pro level are freaks. But whether they're freaks or not, the college game, especially systems like Knight's, doesn't allow them to express or develop that individual style. The freedom just isn't there.

That is partly why Boeheim in the '80s got a lot of the best talent, because there was a perception that he would let them ball whereas a more regimented coach would be a PITA.

But sometimes, players from a program with a more rigid system still are able to break out when they get to the NBA. Prime example is Dean Smith. Players who excelled in the four-corners like Phil Ford didn't make too much of a mark in the NBA. But you still had guys like Walter Davis surprise in the NBA. And Jordan's game in the NBA was nothing like it was in college. Same with VC and some others.

On the posters, of course the NBA markets itself much more than the NCAA. However, March Madness ratings are probably comparable if not better than NBA Finals ratings. If not posters, they can get pictures from ESPN, SI, whatever. But the point is, the NBA game is more appealing to people outside the country. I'm pretty sure the kids in Nigeria are practicing moves he saw in NBA games, instead of practicing their free throws or learning to set picks and move without the ball.

[pk500]

On the posters, of course the NBA markets itself much more than the NCAA. However, March Madness ratings are probably comparable if not better than NBA Finals ratings. If not posters, they can get pictures from ESPN, SI, whatever. But the point is, the NBA game is more appealing to people outside the country. I'm pretty sure the kids in Nigeria are practicing moves he saw in NBA games, instead of practicing their free throws or learning to set picks and move without the ball.

Of course. And you stated the reason in your first sentence. The NBA markets itself aggressively in international markets. I'd be surprised if the NCAA markets itself at all outside of the U.S.

Plus America is unique in its formal college athletic culture. That simply doesn't exist in most other countries around the world, where local club or national sports systems nurture youth talent, not schoolboy or college teams.

In fact, when worldwide journalists came to Indianapolis for the first four United States Grand Prixs in September 2000 through 2003, they were astounded that college football drew so many people away from motor racing and other sports. They simply could not wrap their head around the fact that 100,000 people would fill a stadium to watch college students play a sport.

I'm not exaggerating one bit, and I had this conversation with at least four or five journalists every year from 2000-03. The USGP moved to June last year.

So, of course, the NBA gets more attention overseas because of the marketing and because of the lack of a college sports culture everywhere besides the U.S. I'm sure if kids in Nigeria were exposed to NCAA basketball, especially today's more fluid, wide-open college game, they would like it.

Take care,
PK