Fatal Flaw in 2k3? PK what is going on here?

NovaStar · Post by **NovaStar** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 9:37 am

I read the post on SR this morning concerning a fatal flaw in 2k3, I really didn´t read the entire thing because I don´t want my joy spoiled. I then decided to step away from SR and discuss this in a more calmer setting. So PK enlighten me is this a true statement, is it just on the GC, or does the X have the same problem? How detrimental to the game is this discovery. Lastly, why do gamers purposely go through a game looking for these things then decide to post them and spoil everyone else´s fun. If I found a FF in a game I would be inclined to keep it to myself.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 10:50 am

Nova:
 
 It´s total bullsh*t.
 
 First, some background. The original poster at SR claimed that EVERY pass play in NFL 2K3 was tipped off by the offensive tackles crouching in the pass blocking position before the snap instead of dropping to a three-point stance.
 
 That´s nonsense.
 
 Take this example from last night: I´m playing my Bills´ season, Week 7, in the driving rain at Miami. Both Dolphins´ tackles are the pass-blocking stance, and Fiedler hands off to Ricky Williams for a draw. On the next play, both Dolphins´ tackles are in a three-point stance, and Fiedler throws a slant over the middle to Gadsden.
 
 I´ll admit that tackles are in pass-blocking stances a bit too often when the QB is under center in NFL 2K3. They don´t always pass in those situations, but still you rarely -- if ever -- see a tackle up when the QB is under center.
 
 But you ALWAYS see tackles up when the QB is in the shotgun -- that´s just part of the modern NFL in which 330-pound tackles are trying to block 275-pound defensive ends who can run a 4.5 40.
 
 So, yes, the tackles in the up position occasionally when the QB is under center is a flaw. Fatal? Lord, no. How many times have you known a team was going to run a certain play, they ran it, and you still couldn´t stop them? The same phenomenon happens in the NFL, too. Defensive teams get good matchups, and the offensive team still makes the play.
 
 If people think the lineman crouch" is a fatal flaw in NFL 2K3, how about the time I made six consecutive completions between Bledsoe and Moulds in Madden 2003 on the Xbox for 80 yards and an easy score on the medium skill level? It was the SAME DAMN PLAY every time -- Moulds slot left, running a slant over the middle -- and the CPU did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to adjust. I consider that to be a fatal flaw.
 
 Bottom line: NFL 2K3 is a more challenging game than Madden 2003 this year at comparable skill levels, "fatal flaws" or not. And I like both games -- no fanboyism here. I just think NFL 2K3 is the more challenging and better game.
 
 Finally, don´t believe the "fatal flaw" post at SR. It´s simply not true. The offensive lineman in the up position when the QB is under center is a flaw, but it´s not fatal. And it doesn´t tip off the type of every play by the CPU. If the CPU did pass every time the offensive lineman was up -- which it doesn´t -- it still would be hard to telegraph the play and stop it every time due to the vast variety of passing plays in every team´s playbook.
 
 Take care,
 PK

NovaStar · Post by **NovaStar** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 11:03 am

Thanks for clearing that up. I never ever noticed the stances of the tackles. Besides wouldn´t you have called your defense before the ol even lines up? So even if it were a tip off to a run or pass your defense is called already. And if you were to audible wouldn´t the offense audible? I agree this is definitely not a show stopper. Even if i knew they were going to run, which direction? I would say 8 times out of 10 they would still be successful, because as you said there are just so many plays per team. I think someone is 2k3 hatin. Again, why do gamers intentionally look for flaws in a game. If I enjoy a game a flaw is the last thing I am lookin for.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 11:58 am

Nova:
 
 Spot-on. Name me a flawless sports video game, and I´ll call you a genius. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 For example, hardly any racing games have damage models. But damage is a huge factor in real racing. So, does that make every racing game without a damage model fatally flawed?
 
 Of course not.
 
 Plus, the OT stance situation in NFL 2K3 is not a "fatal flaw." It affects maybe one out of 10 plays. Come on, when the offense is in a shotgun, don´t you expect a pass, regardless of the stance of the tackles?
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 29-08-2002 08:59 ]

btmmayor · Post by **btmmayor** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:38 pm

>>"But you ALWAYS see tackles up when the QB is in the shotgun -- that´s just part of the modern NFL in which 330-pound tackles are trying to block 275-pound defensive ends who can run a 4.5 40."<<
 
 Wrong.
 
 Please do this before posting further about this subject. Go into practice with the Bills. Select Gun:Trey Right.
 
 Strong Toss: run play - tackle down.
 Weak Sweep: run play - tackle down.
 Weak Counter: run play - tackle down.
 Strong Draw: run play - tackle up (play action).
 
 The tackle will always be down for a run or up for a pass EXCEPT if its a play action pass or a draw. Bottom line. No room for debate. I´ve gone through playbook after playbook and this is ALWAYS the case. It doesn´t matter if the QB is under center or in the shotgun. The tackle is only in the opposite stance on play action and draws.
 
 Now --- this is the GC version. Thats all I can speak for. I also agree that the original posters message at SR was incorrect and I´m very glad of that. It is not nearly as bad as I first suspected, but it is no coincidence that my run defense is much, much improved over the 4 games I´ve played since knowing this. Thankfully it has done nothing to improve my pass defense.
 
 I also agree that it sucks for someone to post something like that. You can read in my very first post in my very first sentence in that thread that I was upset about reading it. I would never want to know something like that, unfortunately I was weak and read the post. I´m simply responding to it.
 
 PK, if I´m wrong about the play action passes and draws in the X-box version, please let me know. I´ve gone through many playbooks and have yet to find an exception - Tackle up on pass, down on run except for play action and draw. Simple.
 
 Now, this is not nearly as damaging since roughly 25% of the plays are play actions or draws (yup - again I went through and counted <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">) I still don´t like it one bit though. In a follow up reply at SR I made this analogy to HRK:
 
 "I remember some bitching about the guess pitch feature in HRK, even in a review here at Sports Reviewers. I think it was called a "mind-reading" feature or something. At least in that game you only had roughly a 20% to 25% chance of getting it right. It amazes me that I read alot of posts and comments of those that had a problem with that, yet being able to predict run or pass in a football game is no big deal."
 
 >>"It affects maybe one out of 10 plays."<<
 
 Roughly 7 out of 10 plays are affected.
 
 >>"I then decided to step away from SR and discuss this in a more calmer setting."<<
 
 I don´t think there is anything wrong with that discussion at SR. [ This message was edited by: btmmayor on 29-08-2002 09:40 ]

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:56 pm

BTM:
 
 I´ll take a look at some playbooks in the Xbox version.
 
 >>"I then decided to step away from SR and discuss this in a more calmer setting."<<
 
 Those were not my words. Don´t put them on my fingers. I´ve never said SR was a stormy spot. Overrun by two trolls a month ago? Yes. Stormy? Never.
 
 Thanks,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 29-08-2002 10:06 ]

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 1:02 pm

BTM:
 
 From the SR Forum:
 
 >>>This is EXACTLY my point, and its driving me nuts that PK and others just don´t see it. My run defense has been MUCH improved since reading this post, and that is what is hurting the game. Bottom line.<<<
 
 Two quick thoughts:
 
 1. If my lack of agreement with you on a video-game subject is driving you nuts, then you need to step outside for a few hours. There´s a whole wide world out there besides video games.
 
 2. So the "fatal flaw" in NFL 2K3 is bothering you. The money plays in Madden -- such as the ease in running successful slant after slant after slant pass plays for 10 yards or more with no adjustment from the CPU defense -- bug the sh*t out of me a whole lot more. But it doesn´t drive me nuts that you´re not seeing this flaw in Madden.
 
 Finally, my run defense always has been good in NFL 2K3 because I like to control defensive linemen and use special moves to clog the line, letting the CPU linebackers do their job by filling the holes and making tackles. So this "fatal flaw" doesn´t drive me nuts.
 
 Nuttingly yours,
 Mr. Peanut (PK)
 
 [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 29-08-2002 10:03 ] [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 29-08-2002 10:04 ]

btmmayor · Post by **btmmayor** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 1:34 pm

>>"Those were not my words. Don´t put them on my fingers."<<
 
 I didn´t intend to link you to that at all. I was simply responding to the statement.
 
 >>"If my lack of agreement with you on a video-game subject is driving you nuts, then you need to step outside for a few hours. There´s a whole wide world out there besides video games."<<
 
 Wrong choice of words PK. Your lack of agreement isn´t driving me nuts. You calling it bullshit in this forum and at SR while kicking out statements that just aren´t true does rub me a little.
 
 - "you ALWAYS see tackles up when the QB is in the shotgun": wrong, plain and simple. Go into practice and see for yourself. In the shotgun, the tackle is down for all run plays except for draws.
 
 - "you rarely -- if ever -- see a tackle up when the QB is under center": again wrong. If its a pass play you will always see the tackle up when the QB is under center unless it is a play action pass.
 
 - "it affects 1 out of 10 plays": Count the play-action and draw plays then try it again.
 
 >>>So the "fatal flaw" in NFL 2K3 is bothering you. The money plays in Madden -- such as the ease in running successful slant after slant after slant pass plays for 10 yards or more with no adjustment from the CPU defense -- bug the sh*t out of me a whole lot more. But it doesn´t drive me nuts that you´re not seeing this flaw in Madden.<<<
 
 I never said I didn´t see this flaw in Madden because I´ve never discussed Madden. This discussion has been about the tackle in NFL 2k3. Thanks for letting me know about this "money" play in Madden though....LOL. I didn´t realize that slant pass plays are that easy to run in that game. That will give me something else to ***** about. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Again, your opinion is your opinion and I respect that. The thing that drives me "nuts" though is when people respond without knowing all the facts. If you go into practice and see that the tackle is not always up on pass plays except for draws and not always down on run plays except for play-action then its time for me to get an X-Box.
 
 <<"There´s a whole wide world out there besides video games.">>
 
 I have a fine grip on reality....thanks. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_confused.gif">
 
 <<"Nuttingly yours">>
 
 LOL

NovaStar · Post by **NovaStar** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 1:45 pm

BTMMayor, what´s up? The words (and I am paraphrasing) "I chose to come to a calmer setting" were mine. I am not saying SR is stormy at all, I just know the subject of the football wars is somewhat hot, had nothing to do with the forum or the location of any forum. I feel that if you find a flaw in a game be sure that it is a flaw, particularly a fatal one. I never have seen the need to spoil a vast number of gamers experiences by exposing such a thing. Not saying that you do, but in the case of nfl2k3 and madden, I mean a discussion of such things is rather volatile at best. Question, do you own Madden 2003? and if you do have you diligently checked it for flaws? If not will you? If so, have you found a flaw and if you have why haven´t you reported it? I just don´t see the good that comes out of these kinds of things. Like PK has said, he has found a play that has worked quite consistently in Madden, just ignore it accept it and/or move on. If it really bothers you email Sega´s development team and have them address it.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 2:01 pm

BTM, Nova:
 
 Thanks for the debate, guys. This is just the kind of semi-civil, intelligent talk I like to see here. We don´t want to be too civil, do we? <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif"> Seriously, thanks.
 
 Now, I´ll look more for this flaw in the Xbox version. But even if it is more widespread than I think, it won´t change my opinion of NFL 2K3 in the least. I have a ton of fun playing it, more than Madden or Fever, so I´m keeping it.
 
 Plus I´m aching to play online football with Xbox Live, and Madden isn´t available on XBL and Fever isn´t a realistic option. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Keep posting in here, boys. I´m glad you´re here.
 
 Take care,
 PK
 
 [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 29-08-2002 11:01 ] [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 29-08-2002 11:05 ]

Post by **Jared** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:26 pm

Personally, I just like the fact that there are different crouches for different plays. As long as it doesn´t make plays 100% predictable (which it doesn´t), I think it´s a great detail to have in a game.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 4:07 pm

>>>Personally, I just like the fact that there are different crouches for different plays.<<<
 
 Sounds like me hovering over the toilet after a Taco Bell meal. I have different crouches for a Chalupa, bean burrito and Chicken Soft Taco. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Couldn´t resist, sorry.
 
 And, seriously, you´re right, Jared.
 
 Take care,
 PK

btmmayor · Post by **btmmayor** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 4:12 pm

<<"Question, do you own Madden 2003? and if you do have you diligently checked it for flaws? If not will you? If so, have you found a flaw and if you have why haven´t you reported it? I just don´t see the good that comes out of these kinds of things.">>
 
 I think you are asking that question to the wrong person. I´m not sure you realize this but I´m not the person that originally posted about "the flaw". I would never start a thread like that. I was mad as hell when I read it at SR and I said as much in my very first reply to the thread. At first I was upset at the poster, but then I realized that it was my own fault for reading it. Once I did read it, I verified it and then simply responded to it.
 
 I´m not the type that likes to dissect games for flaws. The only reason that I went into NFL 2k3 practice mode and did some research on "the flaw" was because I wanted to see how bad of a game breaker it would be for me once I already knew of its existence. The fact that PK denied it was there at all had me just baffled because I saw it every single time except for play action and draw plays. Thats the only reason I´ve continued the discussion in this forum. If this thread hadn´t already been started at the DSP forum, I never would have made a comment about the tackle tip off here because I´m not looking to ruin the game for other players.
 
 I´m certainly not here trying to point out flaws or diminish the enjoyment for anyone else.
 
 <<"If it really bothers you email Sega´s development team and have them address it.">>
 
 Absolutely. Unlike when I first found out about it yesterday, now I believe it is a design decision by Sega since the tackle is up for draws and down for play action. It still makes it way too predictable for my tastes though and is something I would very much like to see changed.
 
 <<"I just know the subject of the football wars is somewhat hot">>
 
 Ridiculous is more the word I´m looking for. A good game is a good game. Period. Just because I enjoy NFL 2k3 doesn´t mean I can´t enjoy Madden. Just because I´m personally a huge Nintendo guy doesn´t mean I have to dislike the PS2 or X-Box.
 
 
 <<"But even if it is more widespread than I think, it won´t change my opinion of NFL 2K3 in the least.">>
 
 Thats good to hear PK and I really hope that turns out to be the case for me as well. While I don´t think its existance can be questioned, how big of a "flaw" it is is purely a matter of opinion. Hopefully as I play the game more I can learn to deal with it or just ignore it all together.
 
 <<"Keep posting in here, boys. I´m glad you´re here.">>
 
 Thanks PK. I was a huge DSP fan back when the site was first started years back and its nice to see you doing some work here. Although I´m not sure "work" is the right term to use. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">

NovaStar · Post by **NovaStar** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 4:28 pm

BTMMayor, I apologize. I thought you were the one that started the post. I read some other takes on this issue over at OS, and it seems that it is like PK said. Sega is actually mimicking what is done in the NFL. It seems that the ol men in the real game actually do this. It might tip the defense somewhat to what might be coming but you never know the direction or if it is a ploy. It seem that Sega gets points for this instead of boos. In no way was I trying to flame you up. I have read many of your posts on SR you are a cool dude, dude.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 4:54 pm

There´s just too much damn love in here now for me to take ... <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 BTM: You´re right -- this isn´t work, it´s fun!
 
 Take care,
 PK

NovaStar · Post by **NovaStar** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 5:09 pm

Pk, I am sure that those moments will come when the kindler gentler Pk will take a back seat to Johny Storm (flame on), when that moment comes I have the flame retardent suit ready. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_biggrin.gif">

btmmayor · Post by **btmmayor** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 7:37 pm

Its all good Nova.
 
 Man, I just read the thread over at the OS forums and it appears I´m in a VERY small minority on this one.
 
 I´ll admit to not being an expert in the X´s and O´s of football, but I refuse to believe that a real NFL lineman on 2nd and 1 will line up in a 2-point stance if a pass play is called the way the tackle in NFL 2k3 will if its not play action and just a normal pass play.
 
 I guess that most gamers are applauding Sega´s decision to do this with NFL 2k3 so I´ll just shut up now! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_cool.gif">

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 10:12 pm

>>>I´ll admit to not being an expert in the X´s and O´s of football, but I refuse to believe that a real NFL lineman on 2nd and 1 will line up in a 2-point stance if a pass play is called the way the tackle in NFL 2k3 will if its not play action and just a normal pass play.<<<
 
 BTM:
 
 No, you´re right. That is a flaw. But it´s not a game-killer to me, as nearly everything else in NFL 2K3 is done so well. Plus I can´t stop the play half the time, even when it´s telegraphed!
 
 But when it´s third-and-9 from the gun, a tackle will line up in the crouch. But I can´t remember the last time I´ve seen a tackle line up in the crouch when the QB is under center, on any down. Am I wrong, boys?
 
 Another thing I´m not crazy about with NFL 2K3 is that the CPU offensive´s formation will be displayed on the play selection screen if you wait long enough before picking your defense. Again, there are pass and run plays in most sets, but it sure helps to know that an offensive is running a shotgun or jokers formation beforehand, allowing you to pick your defense accordingly.
 
 I almost never wait to learn the formation. I just pick and play. Still, I can´t stop the CPU offense all the time!
 
 Enough on this! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Take care,
 PK
 
 [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 29-08-2002 19:15 ] [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 29-08-2002 19:16 ]