OT: Explain this baseball rule to me...

maddoc1979 · Post by **maddoc1979** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:25 pm

I find this the most frustrating, asinine rule in sports. A batter strikes out, the catcher drops the ball, and the batter runs to first base and beats the throw. Why the hell is he safe? He's already struck out...A strike out should be like crossing the plane of the endzone in football...that's it, play's over...!

What could possibly be the rationale for this?

Doc

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:29 pm

What's really interesting is that the runner can reach base, the pitcher gets a strikeout in the box score, and yet an out isn't recorded in the inning. If anything, the runner should be able to reach base, but there still should be an out recorded. It is pretty ridiculous.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:38 pm

There must have been a good reason for it once.
They dont record the out until the ball is caught.

Like on a foul tip with two strikes, if the ball is dropped it counts as foul..If its caught its a strike out.

EDIT: Yeah, someone explain it.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:22 pm

XXXIV wrote:There must have been a good reason for it once.
They dont record the out until the ball is caught.

Like on a foul tip with two strikes, if the ball is dropped it counts as foul..If its caught its a strike out.

EDIT: Yeah, someone explain it.

You were remarkably close for having no idea about the rule.

Back before there were strikeouts, the only way you got hitters out by was catching a ball that was in play. There were no balls and strikes, you kept getting pitches untill you hit the ball in play, and you were out if it was caught, or if it was caught on a base, etc. Bottom line: all outs ended with a caught ball.
So when the strikeout was added, it was still part of the rule that the out had to end with a caught ball. Now back in the day, catchers didn't wear equipment. They could either play close to the plate and catch the balls directly from the catcher, or they could play way back behind the plate and catch it on a bounce. But if it bounced in on a third strike, it violated the rule of baseball that outs must end with a caught ball.
Also, consider that on all outs the ball must be "controlled"... if you drop a pop fly the runner is safe, or if you juggle/don't have control of a ball while receiving a throw on a force out the runner is also safe. A strikeout also requires that the ball must be controlled.

Also as a reminder, this rule only applies in modern baseball when first base is empty.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:29 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:What's really interesting is that the runner can reach base, the pitcher gets a strikeout in the box score, and yet an out isn't recorded in the inning. If anything, the runner should be able to reach base, but there still should be an out recorded. It is pretty ridiculous.

No, the strikeout is recorded only for the benefit of the official scorer (sort of like when a hitter reaches base via error, he gets an out as a reflection of his statistical performance). There is no out.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:33 pm

Kazuya wrote:No, the strikeout is recorded only for the benefit of the official scorer (sort of like when a hitter reaches base via error, he gets an out as a reflection of his statistical performance). There is no out.

The pitcher gets a strikeout in the box score if you look. Why do you think they make a big joke about it when a pitcher strikes out 4 guys in an inning?

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:47 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
Kazuya wrote:No, the strikeout is recorded only for the benefit of the official scorer (sort of like when a hitter reaches base via error, he gets an out as a reflection of his statistical performance). There is no out.
The pitcher gets a strikeout in the box score if you look. Why do you think they make a big joke about it when a pitcher strikes out 4 guys in an inning?

I didn't say anything to refute that. You said the batter should be able to reach base, but there should be an out recorded... but an out hasn't been made. The strikeout for both the pitcher and the batter is just a statistical evaluation so the batter doesn't get credit for having reached base. It's just like an error.

Diablo25 · Post by **Diablo25** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:52 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
Kazuya wrote:No, the strikeout is recorded only for the benefit of the official scorer (sort of like when a hitter reaches base via error, he gets an out as a reflection of his statistical performance). There is no out.
The pitcher gets a strikeout in the box score if you look. Why do you think they make a big joke about it when a pitcher strikes out 4 guys in an inning?

Ironincally, I was a part of the ONLY time in professional baseball (ever) that there was 5 strikeouts in an inning

It was in 1994 but I believe it has happened once since then...not sure though. I was in low A ball with Milwaukee (Beloit, WI) and Kelly Wunsch (w/White Sox now I believe) was all over the place. He had a nasty curveball from the left side but he was a classic goofy lefty (if you know what I mean). He crossed me up twice in the inning, striking out both hitters but, due to the cross ups, both hitters reached base. He then struck out the side. A few days later we learned that this was the first time it had ever happened. Kelly actually had his hat, glove and the ball in the Hall of Fame for a year in the minor league section. I have no idea if my name was mentioned in the display but it sure would have been cool. People were sending us baseballs in the mail to sign LOL. Pretty fun incident

icvu42 · Post by **icvu42** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:05 pm

Speaking of scoring rules that don't make sense. Yanks have a 2 run lead. Gordon gives up the home run, then puts men on first and third. Rivera comes in, gices up a sac fly that ties the game. The run is charged to Gordon, but Rivera gets the blown save? The two runs that tied the game were Gordon's. If the runner on first would have scored, Gordon would have gotten the loss. Makes no sense to me.

Rick

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:14 pm

Kazuya wrote:
XXXIV wrote:There must have been a good reason for it once.
They dont record the out until the ball is caught.

Like on a foul tip with two strikes, if the ball is dropped it counts as foul..If its caught its a strike out.

EDIT: Yeah, someone explain it.
You were remarkably close for having no idea about the rule.

.

No s***?!....probably(?) why I wanted to know ....

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:28 pm

icvu42 wrote:Speaking of scoring rules that don't make sense. Yanks have a 2 run lead. Gordon gives up the home run, then puts men on first and third. Rivera comes in, gices up a sac fly that ties the game. The run is charged to Gordon, but Rivera gets the blown save? The two runs that tied the game were Gordon's. If the runner on first would have scored, Gordon would have gotten the loss. Makes no sense to me.

Rick

You're right, it is pretty dumb but then so are saves. The basic concept is that whoever gives up the tying run gets the blown save. Most middle relievers have horrible save stats because they rack up blown saves while never having the ability to get any good saves.
It was a tough save opportunity, but it was certainly possible (though not probable) for Mo to come in and strike out the side or get out of the situation. The blown save shouldn't be a reflection of how he pitched, he was just fine. You also have to remember that most closers cash in plenty of easy saves (3 run leads agains the bottom of the order, for example) over their careers as well, so it probably evens out.

maddoc1979 · Post by **maddoc1979** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:30 pm

Kazuya wrote: Back before there were strikeouts, the only way you got hitters out by was catching a ball that was in play. There were no balls and strikes, you kept getting pitches untill you hit the ball in play, and you were out if it was caught, or if it was caught on a base, etc. Bottom line: all outs ended with a caught ball.
So when the strikeout was added, it was still part of the rule that the out had to end with a caught ball. Now back in the day, catchers didn't wear equipment. They could either play close to the plate and catch the balls directly from the catcher, or they could play way back behind the plate and catch it on a bounce. But if it bounced in on a third strike, it violated the rule of baseball that outs must end with a caught ball.
Also, consider that on all outs the ball must be "controlled"... if you drop a pop fly the runner is safe, or if you juggle/don't have control of a ball while receiving a throw on a force out the runner is also safe. A strikeout also requires that the ball must be controlled.

It seems to make sense to me, though, that if you're going to drastically change the game by adding balls and strikes, and changing where the catcher can and can't stand during a pitch, why not just get rid of this antiquated rule. Besides, you see it all the time where the catcher drops the third strike, but it's a strikeout and the batter walks back to the dugout. And certainly, as others have pointed out, baseball being such a game of statistics, the either award an out to the team, or don't award the pitcher a strikeout in this situation.

Doc

TheGamer · Post by **TheGamer** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:01 pm

"Also as a reminder, this rule only applies in modern baseball when first base is empty."

except when there are two outs.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:37 pm

Diablo25 wrote:
dbdynsty25 wrote:
Kazuya wrote:No, the strikeout is recorded only for the benefit of the official scorer (sort of like when a hitter reaches base via error, he gets an out as a reflection of his statistical performance). There is no out.
The pitcher gets a strikeout in the box score if you look. Why do you think they make a big joke about it when a pitcher strikes out 4 guys in an inning?
Ironincally, I was a part of the ONLY time in professional baseball (ever) that there was 5 strikeouts in an inning It was in 1994 but I believe it has happened once since then...not sure though. I was in low A ball with Milwaukee (Beloit, WI) and Kelly Wunsch (w/White Sox now I believe) was all over the place. He had a nasty curveball from the left side but he was a classic goofy lefty (if you know what I mean). He crossed me up twice in the inning, striking out both hitters but, due to the cross ups, both hitters reached base. He then struck out the side. A few days later we learned that this was the first time it had ever happened. Kelly actually had his hat, glove and the ball in the Hall of Fame for a year in the minor league section. I have no idea if my name was mentioned in the display but it sure would have been cool. People were sending us baseballs in the mail to sign LOL. Pretty fun incident

Awesome story! Thanks for sharing the tale. A great example of why I love baseball so much, the weird little things about it. Hard to believe in a game played so long that in 1994 something could happen that had never happened before in ALL of pro ball. But hey, that's baseball.