Digital Sportspage TW 2005 Exhibition Event 2

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:00 pm

James_E wrote:I'd prefer to play with you DSP folk, even though I don't mind shooting +25 on expert like I do. So I'm all for moving it back to advanced so that more DSPers will play.

I'm just going to ignore the inevitable scores in the mid-low 50s that will occur. Those guys are on a different planet skill-wise, and are likely using all the aids... I won't compete with that.

It's not like you get anything for winning. I'd rather have fun, shooting without aids on advanced than destroying the field. I wish EASO had some way to prevent people from using those aids, but whatever.

James_E · Post by **James_E** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:44 pm

Yeah, I know. For some reason it DOES annoy me though. I'm going to just take a step back, play the game and have fun.

We all get pissed at the Tiger Xbox scores right? Same thing here. Just have to learn to chill and enjoy the game.

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:20 pm

A little OT, but as I was trying to practice last night for getting my 2nd round in today, I noticed another major omission that I have not heard anyone talk about. I could not play with my online player in offline mode, nor are there any stats anywhere to be found in the game for my online player.

For example, in TW 2004, I had a player for my career called Don Chapman. This player started at the amatuer level or whatever, and was building up attributes, etc. Then I also had a player called DChaps66 which was my online player. I could see all my stats for this player, and I could use this player to practice, thus giving me the same conditions, clubs, attributes, difficulty level, etc. as I would have in online competition.

I am probably not describing this very clear, but basically, it appears that this is something else that was in TW 2004 (like custom tour schedules), that is no longer in TW 2005. Why omit features already present? I really just don't get it.

So anyway, could someone explain to me how to create an offline player that will mimic exactly how my player will be online performance wise so that I can practice offline? I figure i've gotta be missing something, or doing something stupid. However, I just can't figure out how to create a player without having to go through the whole attributes/career mode thing which does not seem to pertain to online mode at all.

Anyone understand what I am saying or am I just an idiot?

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:24 pm

DC,

I don't know how to change it but as far as I know...the online player and the offline player are two different players with different 'attributes' so I don't think there is a way to switch between them when you are offline. It's either you're on or you're off.

James_E · Post by **James_E** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:30 pm

Create a player that is a "pro", not an amateur. He'll have the same skills online as offline.

Not sure why the online stats are not kept... I heard something about them only being kept for ranked games or something. It's a pretty crappy omission if you ask me.

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:34 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:DC,

I don't know how to change it but as far as I know...the online player and the offline player are two different players with different 'attributes' so I don't think there is a way to switch between them when you are offline. It's either you're on or you're off.

Hmmm.... Ok, so here's a further example of what I think I am talking about. One of my biggest problems right now in Expert mode is figuring out the club to use and my personal distances for each club. Therefore, I am trying to practice offline to get the feel for that. However, I have no idea what "attributes" my online EASO player has (DChaps66). My offline career player has very few attributes yet because I have not gone very far in the career yet, so if I use that player in offline practice, it will not give me very good feel for what my club and distances will be online. In fact, in trying that out I have already determined I am about 40yd or more off the tee with my EASO online player, than I am with my offline career player.

Maybe I am confused with what I was seeing in TW 2004, but I just booted it up again, and I am defintely seeing my online stats for my DChaps66 EASO player right in the main part of the game.

No wonder I shoot +70, I don't even understand how the frickin' interface works.

Ok, so how can I practice offline to mimic the club distances/attributes of my online player?

James_E wrote:Create a player that is a "pro", not an amateur. He'll have the same skills online as offline.

Not sure why the online stats are not kept... I heard something about them only being kept for ranked games or something. It's a pretty crappy omission if you ask me.

Hmmm... It seemed when I tried that last night it was still way off between the offline and online clubs and distances, but I guess that could just be my suckky playing.

btmmayor · Post by **btmmayor** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:13 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:I'd rather have fun, shooting without aids on advanced than destroying the field. I wish EASO had some way to prevent people from using those aids, but whatever.

What "aids" are you guys refering to exactly? Just the "E" key and the putting grid? Those are the only ones I know about. EASO and the game does prevent people from using those on Expert mode. I also have never used the E key in 2004 or 2005 (I do keep the putting grid on in Advanced as I think most players do) and I've shot in the 50's on occasion and I assure you 100% that I use no cheats. I don't edge and I certainly don't do any of the cheats that John mentioned in a previous post (I don't even know what "script kitties" and some of those other things are). The reason I bring this up is that if I go out and shoot a 50's score in a DSP advanced tournament I hate to think that people are "pissed" about it when I play as straight up as anyone you will ever meet. And no, I haven't played "1000 to 5000" rounds of this version. I've been playing Headgate golf titles since PGA 2000, but I have seldom touched Tiger 2004 or 2005 outside of the DSP tourneys.

What I would be interested to know is what different mice people are playing with. I believe that the ultra precise current generation of mice actually put people at a huge disadvantage in this game. I've been running some tests today with a few different mice that I have to see if I notice a difference as its never occured to me until recently. The results so far are not making me happy, but thats all for another post.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:12 pm

I'll tell you what, I went out and bought a MX510 after reading about it from DB. My scores went from +20 a round to anywhere from -2 to +3 a round. That is a huge difference and it is all because of this mouse.

Plus I was finally able to beat that kilt wearing sissy in Career mode.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:56 pm

btmmayor wrote:
dbdynsty25 wrote:I'd rather have fun, shooting without aids on advanced than destroying the field. I wish EASO had some way to prevent people from using those aids, but whatever.
What "aids" are you guys refering to exactly? Just the "E" key and the putting grid? Those are the only ones I know about. EASO and the game does prevent people from using those on Expert mode. I also have never used the E key in 2004 or 2005 (I do keep the putting grid on in Advanced as I think most players do) and I've shot in the 50's on occasion and I assure you 100% that I use no cheats. I don't edge and I certainly don't do any of the cheats that John mentioned in a previous post (I don't even know what "script kitties" and some of those other things are). The reason I bring this up is that if I go out and shoot a 50's score in a DSP advanced tournament I hate to think that people are "pissed" about it when I play as straight up as anyone you will ever meet. And no, I haven't played "1000 to 5000" rounds of this version. I've been playing Headgate golf titles since PGA 2000, but I have seldom touched Tiger 2004 or 2005 outside of the DSP tourneys.

What I would be interested to know is what different mice people are playing with. I believe that the ultra precise current generation of mice actually put people at a huge disadvantage in this game. I've been running some tests today with a few different mice that I have to see if I notice a difference as its never occured to me until recently. The results so far are not making me happy, but thats all for another post.

I use a run of the mill Microsoft Optical Wheelmouse.

How do people play this game? Do you look at the screen at your golfer while you swing? Do you look at your mouse and not the screen? If not, how do you setup (for instance, do you try to move the mouse down the middle of the pad?).

Does EASO give stats for each round like Links on Xbox did? For instance, can you tell other people's driving distance, fairways hit, etc. It would be interesting to see the stats.

James_E · Post by **James_E** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:31 pm

btm... it's mostly the use of the "E" key, that takes out all the realism, that I'm talking about. I posted the following in another forum:

------------------------------
Using E key you can do the following:

1. Press E key. It shows you where the ball will land.
2. Play with the club selection until you get really close to where you want to land.
3. Get even more accurate to where the ball lands by using the "back/forward" slider (for full shots) or "long/short" slider (for flop shots) or "blast/pick" slider (for sand shots)
4. Take a full swing.

Using these aids you can get your shot VERY close on ALOT of shots. The only ones that are a bit harder are when strong wind is with or against you. Mild winds, or even strong crosswinds you can still do pretty good if you know how to aim it to take into account the crosswinds.

------------------------

Anyhow, I see the E key removing the realism of club selection, ball positioning, and how hard to hit it. Not fun for me... but I can understand why people would use it.

The grid is not such a big deal to me. I like it better OFF, mostly because I like the challenge of reading the green.

Anyhow... I've decided not to care. I'll just play my way and try to better my scores. Hopefully I can post some good numbers.

James_E · Post by **James_E** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:37 pm

Leebo33 wrote:How do people play this game? Do you look at the screen at your golfer while you swing? Do you look at your mouse and not the screen? If not, how do you setup (for instance, do you try to move the mouse down the middle of the pad?).

MX700, no mouse pad.

I make a few practice moves with the mouse, to ensure straight up /down motion. Then, when I swing, I look at the golfer, mostly because I'm trying to gauge how far back to swing.

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:09 am

btmmayor wrote:What "aids" are you guys refering to exactly? Just the "E" key and the putting grid? Those are the only ones I know about. EASO and the game does prevent people from using those on Expert mode.

Yeah, to be honest, I thought that the "E" key and the putting grid were considered the main differences between Advanced and Expert. In Expert mode (or whatever it was called in TW 2003/2004), you cannot use the grid or the "E" key. I never realized it was considered cheating to use them in the advanced mode. I always have the putting grid on in advanced mode (I think it defaults that way), and while I don't use the "E" key everytime, I definitely used it a good bit to make sure I was at least in the ballpark. I don't think the "E" key takes wind or anything into account. I never really thought it would allow you to perfectly setup the shot.

Even using the "E" key or the putting grid, you still have to make the shot, which to me is the real difficulty in the TW series. Most of my Advance difficulty scores in TW 2004 were +5 to +10 for 18 holes, so it wasn't like I was shooting in the 50's. In fact, I think I only broke par for 18 holes once in TW 2004 and it was on a pretty easy custom made course.

One question I have is what is the difference "philosphically" between using the "E" key and using one of the TW Club Distance Charts that are available at many of the TW sites and forums? Is using charts in TW considered cheating? It would seem to give you the same ability to try and get the correct club and use of the slider (Center, Back, Forward) as the "E" key does. If that is considered cheating, what if you actually had memorized the chart, would that still be considered cheating?

Anyway, just wanted some clarification. As my scores show, clearly I am not trying to gain advantages to win tournaments by cheating, but I was using some of these aids before because I thought it was "legal" within the modes we were playing in. I definitely want to play within whatever is considered the "gentleman's rules" for online play.

PS - I am using an MX700, no mouse pad.

James_E · Post by **James_E** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:25 am

Don, I don't know that I'd consider it cheating. I do however think it takes away alot of the challenge and realism. Using E you can setup to ALWAYS take a full swing which is easier than partial swings. To me the part about memorizing club distances is part of golf... we all do it in real life.

As far as "making the shot"... on advanced mode I can hit it dead straight 99% of the time. No worries about "making the shot" for me, if all I have to do is use E key to setup myself up for a full swing.

This whole thing all started because I was amazed that someone shot -17 the first round of the first tournament. Initially I was a bit put off, along the same vein that everyone gets pissed off at the Tiger 2005 Xbox online scores, which are even lower. I've sinced cooled off.

Blublub · Post by **Blublub** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:47 am

Second copy worked for me and I'm ready to go for the next tourney. Very impressed with the changes so far.

btmmayor · Post by **btmmayor** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:51 am

James_E wrote:
MX700, no mouse pad.

I make a few practice moves with the mouse, to ensure straight up /down motion. Then, when I swing, I look at the golfer, mostly because I'm trying to gauge how far back to swing.

That is great to hear that you can hit it straight 99% of the time using an MX700! I was starting to worry that my old ps/2 ball mouse that I use for Tiger (because I like the extra weight) was cause for my good scores as of late. I was switching back and forth between that mouse and my Intellimouse optical and I had a little bit tougher time hitting with the Intellimouse.

Leebo:

I also look at the screen to see the golfers motion. Before my shot I run my mouse quickly up and down the middle of my pad until I see that the pointer is moving back and forth in a straight line. Once I get that feel, I stop, click and make the swing.

The use of the E key certainly does take alot of the "golf" out of the game. I'm sure most everyone here wouldn't use it even if available in Advanced mode.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:57 am

DChaps wrote:
1. In Expert mode (or whatever it was called in TW 2003/2004), you cannot use the grid or the "E" key. I never realized it was considered cheating to use them in the advanced mode.

2. Is using charts in TW considered cheating? It would seem to give you the same ability to try and get the correct club and use of the slider (Center, Back, Forward) as the "E" key does.

Since the E key and grid are FEATURES of TW2005 in Advanced mode, then utilizing them is NOT considered cheating. A feature of the game cannot be considered cheating because it is functional for users on purpose.

2. Again no. Pros use yardage books and make meticulous notes on yardages they have to manage. Since that is not cheating, neither are charts. At the end of the day, you still have to EXECUTE the shot. The difference between Adv/Exp is:

1) the amount of information the user is given/has access to before executing the shot

2) Mis-hit/tempo penalties are greater and 3-click is a tad faster in Expert mode.

J_Cauthen · Post by **J_Cauthen** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:32 pm

I missed round 3 this week due to my workday being extended. I was afraid this was going to happen this week, but such is life. I'll get on later and see what's happening, and get a leaderboard posted.

I'm not sure how the expert ability level is being received, overall. I know we have some who are in favor of it, but some who are adamantly opposed to it.

The use of the "E" key is a questionable choice for advanced ability level. I guess I could see it in intermediate, but you guys are right, it does seem to be too much of a crutch for the otherwise balanced challenge of advanced. I don't fault anyone for using it in advanced because it's not a cheat - it's a feature of the game. However, knowing this group of gamers, if I made a rule saying no use of the "E" key, even though we're playing advanced ability level in the tournament, 95% of you wouldn't use it.

I quit worrying about edgers, API hackers, and script kiddies a long time ago. Most of them tire of their trade when they see no profit or recognition for their deeds, and move on to other more fertile fields. I guess I should define what I mean by some of these terms. Bob and James have raised some questions about them.

An API hacker is someone who can go in and write a subroutine to alter one phase of the interface. I've personally seen a guy modify an API (Application Programming Interface) for Links 2001. He altered it to where the click meter registered every shot as straight, no matter how early or late he clicked the meter. He was simply demonstrating to me that it could be done... he had no interest in playing the game.

What I refer to as "script kiddies" are hackers who find ways to exploit CGI, java, and other active internet clients to manipulate data in whatever form they desire. I doubt that anyone has figured out a way to do this with EASO, but from what I've seen from some of my hacker-geek friends, I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen eventually.

I know that some of the scores we're seeing posted are possible. When I shot a 59 (with a bogey and a three putt par) at Turnberry last week, I knew certain courses could be had under certain conditions.

Many things can change the way a player experiences this game. Look at Danimal's turnaround with a new mouse purchase! I'm sticking with my Microsoft Basic, optical/mechanical mouse. I like the weight of the ball in it for the feel it gives me. In fact, I'm always on the lookout for a ball bearing, or something heavier than the rubber ball that's in it now. Why? I want some more "inertial" feel, not necessarily for playing the game better but for getting more of a visceral feel from the act of sliding a mouse that my senses will equate with the momentum shift of swinging a golf club.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:20 pm

Congrats to btmmayor for his win this week!

Great finishing round in some pretty tough conditions...

btmmayor · Post by **btmmayor** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:20 pm

BigBerthaEA wrote:Congrats to btmmayor for his win this week!

Great finishing round in some pretty tough conditions...

Thanks. I really can't believe how well I shot in this tourney. 95% of my rounds in the 2004 version were on advanced level. My final round started with birdies on 5 of the first 6 holes. As usual though I lost my swing heading into the back nine and I started spraying the ball all over. I dropped to -2 before a birdie on 18.

Like I said earlier, I had alot of fun with the Expert setting. I was expecting a complete collapse from myself in this tourney at any second and I'm still surprised it never came.

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:25 pm

I'll get in on the next tournament. I had to quit our of this one after 2 rounds because of my frustration with expert level. I dont think it would be as bad if we didn't have so much of that damn deep rough! I guess we could play on advanced, but without ever using the "E" key. It would be the "honor" system, but I think we are all capable of doing that. Maybe easier course conditions on expert mode would be the way to go?