OT: Discussion of Reagan's legacy

Welcome to the Digital Sportspage forum.

Moderators: Bill_Abner, ScoopBrady

User avatar
blueduke
Starting 5
Starting 5
Posts: 562
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:00 am
Location: North Carolina

OT: Discussion of Reagan's legacy

Post by blueduke »

Sorry if I'm not exactly all teary-eyed, having had to deal most of my adult life with idiotic Reagan policies or his legacy.

Bracing for months of pathetic right-wing tributes and the naming of every inch of public infrastructure after the bozo
Don't know how old you were when Reagan was in office, but your bile smells of DNC talking points memos. Point out to us what is so "idiotic" about Reagan policies..........

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/BG1414.cfm

Before Reagan: Interest rates at over 13% (just for fun figure out your mortgage payment at 13%, moron), unemployment rate at over 10%, inflation at over 15%, military unable to perform necessary military excercises due to the shortage of ammunition and spare parts, communism expanding. Yap some more my little liberal friend. On second thought, don't. You're doing nothing more than regurgitating leftist nonsense from the mouths of morons such as Steisand, Penn, Carville, and others whom you've read or heard. Too bad you missed your little soccer game.

User avatar
Pete
Starting 5
Starting 5
Posts: 690
Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 3:00 am
Location: MI

Post by Pete »

Wow. What have you guys ever done in your life to put this man down?

RIP.

User avatar
Leebo33
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 6592
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:00 am
Location: PA
Contact:

Post by Leebo33 »

blueduke wrote:Before Reagan: Interest rates at over 13% (just for fun figure out your mortgage payment at 13%, moron), unemployment rate at over 10%, inflation at over 15%, military unable to perform necessary military excercises due to the shortage of ammunition and spare parts, communism expanding.
That is why Reagan will always be my favorite President even if looking back I don't agree with everything he did. The misery index was very real for my family as my dad was unemployed from his manufacturing job and times were really tough. I am also old enough to remember the nuclear disaster drills and walking by the fallout shelter on a daily basis. I'm not saying Reagan was solely responsible for the turnaround, but there was just something about the man that made me proud to be an American and his optimism was infectious.

User avatar
Leebo33
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 6592
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:00 am
Location: PA
Contact:

Post by Leebo33 »

dp

User avatar
FatPitcher
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 1068
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:00 am

Post by FatPitcher »

Don't forget that Democrats had a huge majority in the House of Representatives during Reagan's terms (hence the "Republican Revolution" of 1994, where Democrats lost a net of 54 seats and the majority for the first time since 1954). Reagan, with bipartisan backing (obviously), took a country that was over a barrel and turned it around completely. Thus, the 1980's were the "decade of greed" (while the decade of prosperity in the 90's, fueled by the likes of WorldCom, Enron, and the dot-coms, was somehow less greedy).

Let's see...

Soviets - gone
Gorbachev - played like a piano and gone
Ortega - gone
Noriega - gone
Hussein - gone
Berlin Wall - gone
Ghadaffi - scared shitless
Taliban - gone
Bin Laden - marginalized

and on the "bury head in the sand" side of the coin we have:

Aristide: restored to power
Somalia: left a few dead Army Rangers to rot
Bin Laden: allowed to hide in Afghanistan
Bosnia: stood by while UN bungled "peacekeeping" for several years

But yeah, Reagan said something dumb one time, so let's go dance on his grave.

User avatar
pk500
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 33754
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:00 am
Location: Syracuse, N.Y.
Contact:

Post by pk500 »

Guys:

Love him or loathe him, Reagan helped to end the gravest threat to this nation EVER. The Cold War makes the current War on Terror look like an argument between schoolgirls over lunch money.

I remember reading at one point that there were 9,000 nuclear warheads in the Soviet Union aimed at the U.S., with an equal or greater number aimed from the U.S. at the Soviet Union. We were a couple of button pushes away from the Apocalypse. Seriously.

Presidents before Reagan decided to manage the Cold War through detente, etc. Reagan wanted to win the Cold War and did. Sure, the dawn of capitalism in socialist systems in Eastern Europe and Gorbachev's more progressive leadership helped the walls fall, but give Reagan some credit -- he helped end the Cold War through skillful yet firm diplomacy with Gorbachev, and he did it without committing hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops to a propped-up conflict with literally no post-war planning.

That legacy will be forgotten and disrespected by those who think today's terrorist threat is greater because we were attacked and because John Ashcroft holds press conferences every six weeks to whip Americans into paranoid frenzies.

Remember, from the mid-1950s until 1990, we were one pissed-off Soviet leader away from total nuclear annhiliation.

Blub, you made the comment about people not being old enough to remember Reagan's presidency. I ask you: Are you old enough to remember the Cuban Missile Crisis?

I was born in 1965, three years after the Cuban Missile Crisis. But my parents have told me about it, and a certain segment of the population believed Armageddon would happen at any minute, with just cause. The Earth's survival was truly on the brink, which, with all apologies to those who died on Sept. 11 and since, never has been the case during the War on Terror.

The Cuban Missile Crisis is the most acute example of the kind of threat the world faced during the Cold War.

These are fearful times, but the world's survival doesn't hang in the balance like it did during the Cold War. Give Reagan some credit for that. And no, I didn't vote for him in 1984, the first presidential election in which I was eligible to vote. I voted for Mondale.

Take care,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles

"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature

XBL Gamertag: pk4425

User avatar
Granatofan
Starting 5
Starting 5
Posts: 697
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:00 am
Location: Pasadena, CA
Contact:

Post by Granatofan »

1984 was the first election I was eligible to vote and I voted for Reagan. I'm never ashamed to admit that and get a big kick out my 30 and 40 something-year-old acquaintences who look at me with shock, shame or pity for my "ignorance" or "callousness" for that vote. While my parents never were unemployed during that time I remember a lot of my friends' families struggling during the last half of the 70's. I don't blame Jimmy Carter for what happened to America during that time. To blame or credit any single man for the situations the country finds itself in is naive.

I was born in 1965 and don't remember the 60's, but my parents tell me the country was tearing itself apart at that time. My dad has stated repeatedly that he can only imagine the American Civil War being worse for the rift in the US. Bring on the 70's, post Viet Nam, Nixon's scandal and the country wasn't exactly doing well economically, or idealogically.

Reagan stepped into the scene and helped this country get back its pride. I truly believe he was THE man for THAT time.

I'm no longer a registered republican and most of the time I vote Dem or Green, but I mourn his passing and am thankful he was our president.

My wife is what most would consider a liberal activist. She was saddened by the news when I told her.

I don't know all that went on during his administration, but every man and woman has good and bad qualities.

I believe Ronald Reagan loved his country and did what he thought was best for it. I believe he loved his family and that his family will mourn greatly his passing. So pardon me while I do shed a tear for a man of principle, for his passing, for his family's sorrow, for his and their 10 year ordeal with Alzheimer's.

R.I.P. Ronald Reagan

User avatar
XXXIV
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 17337
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:00 am
Location: United States

Post by XXXIV »

Screw anyone that looks down at someone for their vote.
I dont care who you vote for.
Its disgusting to think that someone thinks less of someone because of their vote

DISGUSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its America baby...........We vote FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELY.

It really does bother me that people are afraid or embaressed of their vote because of SELF IMPORTANT JERKS IN THIS COUNTRY........f***in ASSHOLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I always try to avoid politics(Bashing EA is as crazy as I like to get)....BUT..............
Maybe we need to win freedom in our own country before we can win it in others........
Do we really have to be embaressed of who we voted for?
Thats sickening....grotesque!

User avatar
Blublub
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 1393
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:00 am
Location: Minnesotaaahh

Post by Blublub »

pk500 wrote:Guys:
Blub, you made the comment about people not being old enough to remember Reagan's presidency. I ask you: Are you old enough to remember the Cuban Missile Crisis?Take care,
PK
PK, we were born in the same year. Actually, most of my schooling was during the Cold War, where we studied the Cuban Missle Crisis inside out and then did it over again. The more you read about it and see the interviews with participants the more terrifying it becomes even today. Check out McNamara's recollection in "Fog of War," for example.

I've also looked at the end of the Cold War ad naseum, and there's a compelling argument to be made that Reagan had nothing to do with it - it was inevitable given the weaknesses in the Soviet system. I don't exactly buy that, but it is a good argument.

In any event, sorry if I offended anyone - I'm going to go back to sticking to posts on video games - DS is my little diversion from reality. The whole thing did open up old wounds and the sight of a tribute post here I guess put me over the top. Again, my apologies.

I should know better than to stay away from threads like this ;)

User avatar
Parker
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:00 am

Post by Parker »

I liked a red tie that Reagan wore for a speech in 1987.

User avatar
Badgun
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 2487
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 3:00 am
Location: Danville, VA

Post by Badgun »

Parker,
Check your pms.

User avatar
Badgun
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 2487
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 3:00 am
Location: Danville, VA

Post by Badgun »

Reagan was one of my favorite presidents. He was president from 81-89 which were some of my most impressionable years. I was 22 when he got elected, got married while he was in office, and had and lost my first child in his last year in office. During the Reagan administration, I finally started to become politically aware. My fondest memories of an American president were the Reagan years. I felt I could trust him and I felt that we as a country were safe with him in office.

Like him or not, Reagan epitomized what it is to be the American President. He brought class and dignity to the office which we have not seen since he left.

I am truly saddened by his passing.

User avatar
wco81
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 9556
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:00 am
Location: San Jose
Contact:

Post by wco81 »

Among the things they are saying was how things were more civil back in those days, that at the end of the day, Reagan was this amiable guy who was really friends with Tip O'Neil despite their battles.

What malarkey. He provoked just as strong feelings as Bush does today, both from his supporters and his detractors. And the same was probably true of Nixon as well. But Reagan certainly had more of the country fooled than Bush does.

He presided over the country when the Soviet Union imploded and of course his supporters are quick to take sole credit (they had lied about the supposedly decrepit state of our nuclear deterrent before they got into office). Now they want to put him on every f***in thing around, from airports to Mt. Rushmore.

Reagan did sign a major disarmament treaty but he walked away from a deal to sign a more far-reaching disarmament treaty:
At Reykjavik, Iceland, in 1986, Reagan and Gorbachev were on the brink of a deal to abolish all nuclear weapons, but Reagan scuttled it when Gorbachev insisted that the United States abandon its research and development of a missile defense system.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3638299/

And no, we're not out of the nuclear woods yet. Bush still funds new nuclear weapons development and there is still of course missile defense funding.

But the only thing you have to remember about Reagan is one of his most famous quotes: "moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers."

He said this not only about the Contras but about the Muhajadin. Yes, the same ones who became Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Or their Founding Fathers at least.

Lets not forget how swell the Contras were. They raped, tortured and killed civilians, probably tens of thousands of them. In other words, they unleashed terrorism on a defenseless population. But nobody in this country seems to consider Contras terrorists -- maybe because their victims were brown -- even if there were more victims of the Contras than Al Qaeda, thus far.

Reagan was such a believer in these freedom fighters that he set about breaking US law to help the Contras overthrow a democratically-elected govt. Oh sure, it was just some rogue elements in his administration which made deals with Islamic fundamentalists in Iran (now of course, we know that the Reagan administration played both sides of the Iran-Iraq war, arming Saddam with the most vile weapons).

Reagan's defense was ignorance or poor recollection. Thus started the inevitable descent of the limbo bar for the intellectual prowess of the American presidency.

Why did people swallow all this and trickle down economics? The S&L debacle? The staggering deficits?

Because Reagan made Americans feel better about this country. How? By liberating Grenada and preventing communists from getting their hands on nutmeg.

Reagan destroyed a lot of lives, both in this country and in others. Perhaps now is not the best time to dredge up all these unpleasantries. But there needs to be an antidote to all these sickening and undeserved encomiums.

User avatar
pk500
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 33754
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:00 am
Location: Syracuse, N.Y.
Contact:

Post by pk500 »

Let's face it: Politics breeds partisanship, and partisanship causes people to deny the accomplishments of those who have philosophies with which they disagree.

My parents are strident Democrats and strict Catholics. They think Clinton was the greatest thing since sliced bread despite his utter lack of morals and integrity. I can tell my folks that Clinton got head in the Oval Office and that he lied under oath, and they don't care. I can say that Clinton favored abortion, and they don't care.

That always puzzled the hell out of me.

But that's also an example of what deep-bred partisanship can do, as my parents were both children of lower-middle and middle-class people who were assisted in the Great Depression by FDR's New Deal. The New Deal was needed at the time but evolved into the bloated bureaucracy that afflicts the U.S. system today. Still, its legacy has caused my parents to always vote Democratic, regardless of the candidate.

And anyone who says the New Deal -- a massive system of government programs spawned by Democrats -- pulled the U.S. out of the Great Depression needs to pull their head out of their ass. The industrial complex needed to wage war on two fronts starting in 1941 pulled the U.S. out of the Depression, not FDR's welfare system.

Take care,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles

"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature

XBL Gamertag: pk4425

User avatar
Parker
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:00 am

Post by Parker »

Instead of bickering, we may want to just watch this incredible men's open final in the same nation as Normandy. I hate Coria.

User avatar
bdoughty
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 6673
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:00 am

Post by bdoughty »

Great just what any thread regarding a man death needs. A post by WCO. One that simply ignores the fact that the man dies less then 24 hours ago and goes on rant off about all the evil things Reagan did. Hell you hijacked the Pat Tillman thread and you just had to do it here.

Reagan destroyed a lot of lives, both in this country and in others. Perhaps now is not the best time to dredge up all these unpleasantries. But there needs to be an antidote to all these sickening and undeserved encomiums.
So why post this here and now? By looking through your post President Reagan never did anything positive to deserve a single accolade.

The greatest irony is you give Reagan credit for all the deaths, yet shrug off the Cold War issue by stating that he just so happened to be in office. Could the same not be said for any president and the majority of events that shape their presidency? I could go on but this thread really needs to be locked just like the Pat Tillman thread.

Sad... Really just sad.

User avatar
pk500
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 33754
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:00 am
Location: Syracuse, N.Y.
Contact:

Post by pk500 »

Brent:

Again, partisanship breeds blindness.

WCO thinks it was just coincidental that Reagan was in office when the Cold War ended. Well, I can make the case that Clinton's "economic revival" benefitted as much from the dot.com boom and the tech sector explosion as anything Clinton actually enacted in office. And the huge dividends paid to the U.S. government due to the surging stock market and the increased tax base due to the booming market helped to trim the national debt as much as any cost-cutting programs Clinton introduced.

So the Democratic poster boy, Bill Clinton, benefitted as much from timing as Reagan. But don't try and tell the Democrats that.

Hey, I wasn't a huge Reagan fan, but at least he didn't tarnish the office of the Presidency like Clinton. Clinton and Nixon damaged the prestige of the Oval Office more than any presidents in the last 50 years.

And finally, some people just have no class. They'll dance on the graves of anyone they dislike. I don't go there, even if I disagree with the policies of the person who just died.

For example, it's no secret in here that I despise John Ashcroft. But I'm certainly not going to celebrate or relish his death like some in here seemingly have over Reagan's passing.

Show some damn class, for Christ's sake.

Take care,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles

"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature

XBL Gamertag: pk4425

User avatar
Parker
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:00 am

Post by Parker »

Perhaps the more relevant question should be, who is more capable of effectively ending a future cold war type conflict we may have in the next 8 years (perhaps North Korea). Bush whose support and credibility among the international community has dwindled to pathetic levels, or someone new like Kerry who likely would enjoy far more support around the world. This would enable us to have allies on our side who would pressure North Korea not just because they fear the US but because they truly want to for the best interest of the world. I really believe we are asking for disaster if Bush is in charge of foreign policy for another 4 years.

User avatar
bdoughty
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 6673
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:00 am

Post by bdoughty »

"Again, partisanship breeds blindness."

It breeds more then blindess, but that does not mean it has to bleed over into a thread intended to give condolences.

Which is why the thread should be locked.

Show some damn class, for Christ's sake.

If only it were that easy.

User avatar
bdoughty
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 6673
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:00 am

Post by bdoughty »

Parker wrote:Perhaps the more relevant question should be, who is more capable of effectively ending a future cold war type conflict we may have in the next 8 years (perhaps North Korea). Bush whose support and credibility among the international community has dwindled to pathetic levels, or someone new like Kerry who likely would enjoy far more support around the world. This would enable us to have allies on our side who would pressure North Korea not just because they fear the US but because they truly want to for the best interest of the world. I really believe we are asking for disaster if Bush is in charge of foreign policy for another 4 years.

Thanks Parker I expected no less. I could see you just dying to get something like this out after the smartass tie comment.


Image


There you feel better? Keep dancing on those graves guys. Karma is b*tch who likes to bite you when you least expect it.


:roll:

User avatar
FatPitcher
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 1068
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:00 am

Post by FatPitcher »

North Korea is not nearly a "cold war type conflict". And what is Kerry going to do that Clinton couldn't? Bribe them to sign more deals that they never intend to keep?

One of the results of invading Iraq (and indeed, probably the most compelling reason to do so, but one that the American public would not understand) is that rogue states such as Libya, Iran, and North Korea aren't as confident that the US is too afraid of war to put them out of business. Of course, getting rid of the guy who finally stood up to the Taliban, al Qeida, and Hussein, and who refused to prop up Aristide, would send a clear message that crazy dictators and religious fanatics with nukes are fine by us.

And you know who's going to be pointing the most fingers and saying we should have invaded when Israel gets nuked.

But we're all safe at home with our TVs and our video games, so we can pretend that the world is a friendly place, and that the UN will solve any problems that do arise because they're an upstanding and effective organization.

User avatar
JRod
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:00 am

Post by JRod »

PK,

You hit it right when you said partisianship breeds blindness. I'm a victum of it. However last night while I was driving home from the Rockies game, I heard a talk radio host, say that Reagon was the best President we have had in the last 100 years. This is how far both sides have gone, to diminishing even eliminating the work of good presidents even great onces but that are of the wrong party.

Reagen was a different breed of conservative. He was a conservative republican. Where as Dubya is a realigious zealot republican.

I do think his policies helped after the dreaded 70's but I think because he it was trickle down economics, the middle-class weren't as lucky. His union busting techniques really hurt the working class and probably set them back 20-30 years.


However, I think history will look upon that Presidents from Ford to Bush 2 and futher much in the same vein as we remember Tyler, Harrision, Garfield. Pretty forgettable guys.

As for his involvement in the Cold War, only time will tell as to what really caused the down fall of the Soviet Union and the Cold War. It is very much being in the right place at the right time. Both men, Reagon and Gorbachov created the atmonsphere that would end the Cold War but let's not go overboard as some conservatives will say and claim the Reagon was the sole reason.

User avatar
Leebo33
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 6592
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:00 am
Location: PA
Contact:

Post by Leebo33 »

wco81 wrote:Among the things they are saying was how things were more civil back in those days, that at the end of the day, Reagan was this amiable guy who was really friends with Tip O'Neil despite their battles.

What malarkey. He provoked just as strong feelings as Bush does today, both from his supporters and his detractors. And the same was probably true of Nixon as well. But Reagan certainly had more of the country fooled than Bush does.
I guess he fooled John Kerry as well (from today's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette):


Sen. John F. Kerry of Massachusetts, Bush's prospective Democratic opponent, said Reagan's example "reminds us that we must move forward with optimism and resolve. He was our oldest president, but he made America young again."

Kerry also praised Reagan for a quality he has found lacking in Bush -- a willingness to work harmoniously with Democrats.

"Even when he was breaking Democrats' hearts, he did so with a smile and in the spirit of honest and open debate," Kerry said. "The differences were real, but because of the way President Reagan led, he taught us that there is a big difference between strong beliefs and bitter partisanship."

User avatar
bdoughty
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 6673
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:00 am

Post by bdoughty »

As for his involvement in the Cold War, only time will tell as to what really caused the down fall of the Soviet Union and the Cold War. It is very much being in the right place at the right time. Both men, Reagon and Gorbachov created the atmonsphere that would end the Cold War but let's not go overboard as some conservatives will say and claim the Reagon was the sole reason.
Reagen was a different breed of conservative. He was a conservative republican.


Yea I am sure anyone with the last name of Reagon, Reagen are thrilled to be included in your post and know the were in the right place at the tight time.

I know people hate spelling lessons but he was your President for 8 years, "no matter if you were a democrat, republican or other party".

REAGAN...



oh and it is also Gorbachev ;)

User avatar
Parker
DSP-Funk All-Star
DSP-Funk All-Star
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:00 am

Post by Parker »

Sorry, but I find it more useful to look to the future rather than argue about who ended a conflict 15 years ago.

If Kerry can do only what Clinton did, which was to prevent a superpower from becoming the world's no 1. target in a matter of 4 years, then we should all be happy. Before, only terrorist groups hated us (which is going to happen when you are a powerful nation), now terrorist groups hate us even more with the added bonus of our allies not really giving a damn what happens to us.

Invading Iraq has hardly made the US safer, it has had the opposite effect by alienating much of the world. But if you can't see the value in not being isolated from any allies, then I guess there is no point arguing with you.

True, North Korea likely wouldn't be entirely like the cold war with the Soviets. However, you can't ignore the similarities. While a smaller country, North Korea has a formidable army. The economy is collapsing like the Soviet Union was about to. Most importantly, the conflict likely would involve little fighting but the constant threat of a nuclear attack. I really don't want to have Bush in charge when there are nukes involved.
Last edited by Parker on Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Post Reply