Is ESPN Football overrated?

stolf1 · Post by **stolf1** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:37 pm

I was reading the best sports games awards at OS and at DSP and I noticed that both these great sites picked ESPN Football as game of the year. I´m shocked to see this though ESPN has the best graphics and presentation I have ever seen. There is one huge flaw in this game that only one review caught in the 10 or so I read. The review was on SGN written for the X-Box version of ESPN Football. AI by the CPU´s DBs is brutal. Slants and posts plays are money in the bank. I´m an average gamer at best, I´m passing for high numbers on the All-Pro Level. Donald Driver and A. Freeman were both over 150 yards receving with 5 min quarters I tried adjusting the sliders but it makes little difference the QB´s are on the money and the DB´s can´t adjust. I don´t think we should give a game such high marks just because the game is pretty. AI means more then a pretty face any day.

Post by **Jared** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:06 pm

Stolf,
 
 I agree. I think Madden/NCAA is better, primarily because of this. Having a football game without money plays is VERY important. Madden/NCAA doesn´t have any that I´ve found, while ESPN does. That, and the running game is too powerful for teams like the Dolphins in ESPN. First time I picked up ESPN, I just ran with Ricky all over the place. NCAA and Madden seem to have a lot more balance in this respect.
 
 But these awards were based on everyone else, and they seem to really like ESPN over Madden/NCAA. I disagree, but the people have spoken. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:01 pm

I can only speak for OS. But for their awards the general public picked NCAA by a close margin over ESPN. The staff picked ESPN over NCAA by an equally as close margin.
 
 I really like ESPN, but for some reason I played alot more NCAA online and offline than all of the other football games combined, which is why I voted for NCAA in the staff vote over there.
 
 I think Madden has some serious flaws, and can take advantage of the money plays all day, but for some reason can´t take advantage of those same things in NCAA. Madden does a lot of things right however, and it´s owners mode can´t be beat.
 
 All 3 are quality titles, but NCAA gets my vote personally.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:30 pm

I think NCAA has plenty of money plays. I played a season with Penn State and if I spread the field and scrambled with Michael Robinson or even Zach Mills I could pick up almost every 3rd down. I had to make a house rule that I would only scramble so many times with my QB. I also think it is much much harder to pickup short yardage in ESPN than in NCAA/Madden where the QB sneak or fullback dive is almost money on 4th and 1. That said I still think NCAA is a fantastic game.
 
 ESPN is the best football game I have ever played. I also think the "money plays" go away in franchise mode where it seems the CPU learns your tendencies as the season goes on. I could be way off base here because I´m just getting around to playing a season now, but on default All-Pro my stats are pretty believable. I was a little worried because I am playing as the Bills and in my first game Travis Henry gained like 160 yards on 20 carries, but there have been a couple games where he has been totally shut down and had 20 carries for 50 yards. I also find passing to be like that. I have had games where Bledsoe finished 24/28 for 300 yards but I also had a game at Miami where he was 10/30 and in my last game he threw 4 picks after having only 1 in the first 5 games.
 
 ESPN Football isn´t perfect, but I have never had this much fun with an NFL game. My games are so memorable and it seems like anything can happen (except for the CPU missing a FG!). [ This message was edited by: Leebo33 on 13-01-2004 18:32 ]

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:19 pm

I agree that ESPN was the best football this year.
 Im not sure if it was the best sports game.
 I might have liked Moto GP2 more.
 
 Almost the football games were great.
 I didnt like Fever though.

F308GTB · Post by **F308GTB** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:56 am

That would be my review you´re talking about. I try to pick up on the subtle details of games. For ESPN, I was playing in franchise mode and never noticed the AI adapting to my tendencies throughout the season. It´s a good game, but I wouldn´t consider it the best sports game of the year.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:46 am

I guess adapt is too strong of a word. Maybe things just even out over the long run for me. I just played a game tonight and threw a pick on a slant pattern and I ran some posts without much success. I had to work for every yard on the ground and I didn´t break any run longer than 18 yards. I agree the DB AI needs some work, but I wouldn´t consider it as "money" as stolf1 is indicating. Then again I really don´t go out of my way to exploit the holes. I rarely call the same play more than once a possession. I´m not saying it is wrong to try to find the weaknesses. I´m just glad that I suck just enough or am too stupid to be able to execute the money plays successfully to where it hurts my enjoyment of the game.
 
 ESPN football has been rated highly by too many reviewers and gamers to be considered overrated. I just saw Gamespot had it as Traditional Sports GOY too. Is it for everyone? Certainly not. Is it the sports game of the year? Maybe not, but it certainly is on the short list according to many hardcore and casual gamers. [ This message was edited by: Leebo33 on 13-01-2004 22:49 ]

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:02 am

I can only hope that Sega can one day put a solid effort into a college football game. As much as I love NCAA 2004 and the college game I play ESPN as much if not more. Still my top football game but GOTY now goes to Links 2004 and Top Spin. Top Spin has many annoyances but if you play the right people online it shows it´s brilliance.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:00 am

I thought it played a good game of football but..
 
 I still think the player graphics are poor, particularly some of the running animations, which are laughable
 
 Still need a degree in sliderology to get the RB´s down from panzer tank status, and to generate reasonable stats in franchise mode
 
 Franchise mode is generally poor - I usually enjoy the draft/FA period, but this one felt like a tedious chore.
 
 And I still don´t know why ESPN football got the DSP award for ´biggest surprise´.

RandyM · Post by **RandyM** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:02 am

Perhaps it´s because of the disparity in sales. No matter what Sega does with ESPN, Madden just kills it when it comes to sales figures, and that largely makes it a ´surprise´ when something non-Madden wins the award.
 
 It´s interesting reading this thread that each of the football games has been accused of having money plays now, though.
 
 I enjoy online play quite a bit, and perhaps this more than anything gives the nod to Madden for me, because on XBox Live I went undefeated on my games whereas I was taking a good thrashing on Madden. The sheer # of players available online is also higher on Madden. That´s not to say, of course, that a good ESPN player couldn´t kick my butt, but from the standpoint of coming home from work, selecting the equivalent of "Quick Play" against someone online, Madden offered a much more challenging pool of opponents.
 
 I really like both games, though. Although I would be as apt to pick a game like Top Spin over any football game as game of the year. Or maybe PGR2 (hey, the banana is happy).
 
 Randy

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:10 am

I think with some small changes ESPN could be the perfect football game:
 
 1. As mentioned earlier - better DB play
 
 2. More realistic running game and open field animations. It seems that almost every run is either no gain or a touchdown. It´s very hard to control the clock because of this. Also the open field running animations are awkward.
 
 3. Better pass physics. It doesn´t seem to be a complaint of many people, but I personally don´t like the pass physics.
 
 4. More range of motion and momentum. It seems that players can only run in eight directions (like in Gameday 98 ) and a momemtum slider (like in PS1 Madden 2000) would be icing on the cake.
 
 5. More variety of plays. Most of the plays are the same out of multiple formations.
 
 6. Terrible online play for the PS2.
 
 Having said all that, do I think it is over-rated: probably not. I´ve been a die-hard Madden fan since 1990 and enjoyed ESPN more this year after being disappointed with NFL 2K2 and 2K3 for the PS2.
 
 We´ll have to see what 2K5 brings us.
 
 Jason
 
 [ This message was edited by: Jason on 14-01-2004 07:39 ]

laurenskye · Post by **laurenskye** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:12 pm

i didn´t get this years Madden but what always killed it for me was the huge amount of cheese that online opponents use with this game.
 
 ESPN seems to keep those people under control.
 
 Does this years Madden allow for super cheese?

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:29 pm

All 3 games result in really skewed stats, so I think all football games developers need to work on a lot of aspects.
 
 ESPN gives huge rushing numbers and a lot of sacks, particularly by defensive tackles whom you don´t expect to get a lot of sacks.
 
 Madden doesn´t have consistently big rushing stats but there are games when RBs can pinball all the way through a game for over 200 yards. The passing numbers can be skewed too, with big play WRs often averaging way over 25 yards a catch. Interceptions are also too high.
 
 NCAA is out of control with pancakes, which lead to huge rushing numbers. Suction blocking is the worst so you won´t see big sack numbers and with fast QBs, you´ll also get big rushing numbers. Big pass plays are also common, either with long bombs in multiple coverage or short passes and a lot of RAC yardage.
 
 When you play individual games, they´re still enjoyable and they don´t appear too arcade. But when you compile the numbers over several games, especially leagues that keep stats, you see that all these games have arcade aspects.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:45 pm

Good posts guys. Jason, I agree with your improvement list. The running game needs some work, although I usually see pretty good variety in rushing plays from -2, -1 to plenty of 5 yard carries. As always, your mileage may vary.
 
 I would also add a few more areas of improvement:
 
 1. More variety in CPU defense. I never see them shift the line, linebackers, or DBs.
 
 2. Missed FGs from CPU and accordingly I would like to see the CPU try more 45-50 yard FG.
 
 3. Further improvement with CPU clock management.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:02 pm

wco,
 
 I forgot about the overpowering pass rush in ESPN - couldn´t agree more.
 
 Leebo,
 
 Interesting point about the CPU defensive shifts. Most of my games have been against online opponents so I never noticed this. It would be great to see the CPU shift their defense in response to your offensive formation.
 
 Jason

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:08 pm

The overpowering pass rush was a knee-jerk fix to the utter lack of pass rush in offline games in NFL 2K3.
 
 Just for once I wish developers could find middle ground when fixing flaws. So many development fixes remind me of my wife adjusting the heat in her truck during the winter: If she´s cold, she turns the heat to full blast. If she´s too warm, she turns the knob to cold.
 
 I always remind her, "Hon, there´s a whole slice of dial in the middle there you should try out sometime."
 
 Visual Concepts and other developers would do well to heed the same advice.
 
 Take care,
 PK

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:13 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 I always remind her, "Hon, there´s a whole slice of dial in the middle there you should try out sometime."
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 LOL. That´s a classic.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:44 pm

LOL @PK.
 
 $10 bucks says slant patterns will be impossible to complete and the CPU will hit 33% of FG next year.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:44 pm

I am in the same boat as BDoughty -- ESPN ruined the other two games for me.
 
 I was playing XBox versions, so EA was single-player only for me. Online would have probably changed my opinion. And my opinion of NCAA 2004 was, as a single player game, it was way overrated this year. It was still fun, but the CPU playcalling often made no sense. I´m talking about teams up by 21+ late in the fourth coming out in empty backfields and making no attempt to run and sit on a lead. Plus, I still think teams don´t follow their real life tendencies as much as they should.
 
 Madden 2004, in terms of AI, I thought was quite solid. But it really lacked atmosphere, and I also thought the running game was not nearly as exciting as ESPN´s. And while the owner stuff was really cool, the franchise mode still is lacking in terms of CPU trading, draft logic, etc.
 
 ESPN had some problems, but it immersed me more into the game than the others. I´ve played every game of a 3 season Bears franchise. I´ve had a huge variety of outcomes in my games. Maybe because I picked the Bears, I found the game more challenging than others.
 
 Really, all 3 offerings were good. I can´t really argue with anyone liking one game over the other. But I would not say ESPN was overrated.

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:34 am

I´m in the Leebo and Brando camp on ESPN...not perfect, but the best I´ve played in 15 years. I´m still in love with First Person Mode. Great stuff.
 
 I already can´t wait until the first of the new videos come out for next year´s ESPN. Those early teaser clips always show off some of the great new animations. I think I still have the Corey Dillon one from this past year´s saved somewhere.