Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

Dave wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:09 am
Decided to head to Indy last weekend to attend the Harvest GP (Inaugural, says the stickers...or only one, most likely). With everything going on it was the last chance before winter to spend time with my family outdoors before everything turns too cold in Indy and Minnesota--my wife and I are much more cautious with the virus than the rest of my family. It was a great time and both of my boys had a blast, we just hung out after the second race on Saturday taking pictures while I enjoyed being on the grounds of IMS.
Glad you went and had fun! I wasn't there: Worked that race and this weekend's MotoAmerica race from home.
Dave wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:09 am
One takeaway is that it is the series really needs to look at race distances. The difference between race 1, with REALLY wide windows for a 3-stop race, and race 2, where all but a few cars went with two stops in a 2/3-lap window, was HUGE. My oldest son is just getting into racing and we talked a lot about why Friday's race was more exciting to him and it really drove that point home.
INDYCAR had nothing to do with the shorter lap count of the second race. That was dictated by the NBC TV window. Period.
Dave wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:09 am
And finally, we're still a couple weeks or so away from the anniversary of the tragic crash that took the life of Tony Renna but being at the first IndyCar races in...over a decade?...at Indy in October brought my thoughts to him. I was lucky enough to work briefly with Tony, just as a stupid intern while he drove in Indy Lights. One of my assignments was to accompany him on a visit to Motorola, his car's sponsor. How Tony interacted with me sticks with me to this day. Here I was just a dumb kid that mostly just laminated schedules and other dumb sh*t for the PR/Marketing teams, but he seemed genuinely interested in who I was, what I did, and what I wanted to do with my life as we drove to Chicago. He was such a great kid and had the room eating out of his hand by the end of the appearance.

I followed his career closely and was so excited for what lied ahead after he signed with Ganassi to be Dixon's teammate. For it all to be ripped away, so cruelly, so quickly...it still eats at me to this day. The kid was going to be a star and was an even better person than driver, we all missed out.
One of the truly great losses to INDYCAR in the last 20 years, and sadly he's not as remembered as much as Greg Moore and Dan Wheldon because he never ran a full season in INDYCAR. But I have every belief that Tony was just as talented as those two, and I'm not alone in that deduction. Chip Ganassi rarely hires guys with limited IndyCar experience unless they're special. Tony Renna was special, in and out of the cockpit.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

Enough about Ocon, what do we make of Alex Albon at this point? Yes, he's a scrapper and Horner really seems to like that...but shouldn't he be fast enough in qualifying to avoid a majority of those scraps with lesser cars?

In the end being Verstappen's teammate might be the equivalent to Spinal Tap's drummer; for all of his success this year at Alpha Tauri, I don't think putting Gasly back in the Red Bull is the answer.

But looking through the standings, I'm realizing that if I were the Team Principal Kvyat, Grosjean, Giovinazzi, and Magnussen would all find themselves looking for a new team after this season. And I wouldn't have re-signed Bottas 2.0 (or are we on 3.0) either.

So maybe I'm just a keyboard Helmut Marko with an itchy trigger finger. Basically I like McLaren's current line-up and no one else's two-car stable :lol:
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Rodster »

Dave wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:35 pm
But looking through the standings, I'm realizing that if I were the Team Principal Kvyat, Grosjean, Giovinazzi, and Magnussen would all find themselves looking for a new team after this season. And I wouldn't have re-signed Bottas 2.0 (or are we on 3.0) either.
Gunther Steiner has told K-Mag and Grosjean to find another seat so if one is looking for the proverbial writing on the wall, it doesn't get any clearer than that. Giovonazzi is keeping his seat warm for Mick Schumacher. The press is expecting Mick to partner Kimi at Alfa Romeo next year and if he does well to eventually move up to Ferrari.

Bottas is basically Rubens Barrichello 2.0, he's basically good enough to push and keep Hamilton honest but he doesn't have the talent to beat Lewis. Last year at Monza was his chance to show just that and he couldn't beat Leclerc.

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

Obviously a whole hell of a lot going on in the background on this move, but Oliver Askew's dismissal from McLaren really stinks.

Seeing a lot of "the team has thin skin" comments online and that certainly seems to be the case.

And this following the team doing Hinch dirty last year with the "he's our driver, 100%" song and dance until he wasn't REALLY late in the game, presumably because of O'Ward's sudden availability (totally guessing here, and Pato's ceiling is higher than Hinch's), makes it hard to think highly of the team management.

A lot of factors at play, is this coming from McLaren, the SP side of things, or Arrow, who is paying big $$$...

Hopefully Askew can find a drive, but recent history hasn't always been kind to Indy Lights champs once the scholarship money is gone.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

I was just submitting this post with a question about Askew's departure when your post dropped in, Dave. I'm really struggling with it - his performances pre-Indy, which are all you can judge on, were hardly awful and I would have thought he could only have benefitted from a year of continuity.

Are team and/or sponsor really bent out of shape by recent comments or is there a big name coming? For Askew, I would fear that given his funding situation, there isn't an obvious landing spot for next year unless I'm overlooking something.


I think all four of the F1 midfielders you named might be seeking new employment come December, so while you might have felt the trigger finger getting a bit itchy, you may also be absolutely right on all counts.

On Albon, what's interesting to me is these performances are not so far removed from the ones Gasly served up last year. You wouldn't know that if you listened solely to the team principals, who are being much, much kinder to Alex in public than they ever were to Pierre, a man who they clearly don't want back.

There must be more to it than Pierre having upset them. On the face of it, I find it very difficult to know exactly what, but this is a level of public support I can't recall any of the team's second drivers receiving. Even today, Helmut Marko has described Albon's Eifel GP effort as "satisfactory", which I assume means something else in Austria.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

It is possible, that yes, they really are that bent out of shape. Sounds like the team is still scarred by Arrow's extreme displeasure around Hinch's appearance in the ESPN Body Issue, so wrong comments at the wrong time while driving for the wrong team.

So where could he land in 2021? Or more realistically, where could any number of drivers without much of a budget go?

Andretti: He won the Indy Lights championship for them and we know Veach is gone. If Gainbridge sticks around then they maybe have an open, paid seat but it sure seems like that's Hinch's (we keep coming around to him, don't we?). A lot of question marks around funding for all non-Rossi cars here heading into next season.

Ganassi: Is Ericsson a lock to return? Still the oddest full-season sponsor in Huski Chocolate since I've never seen their product anywhere in the US. I assume Rosenqvist is safe, but nothing's been announced.

Coyne/Vasser/Sullivan: A dollar goes further here than anywhere.

Carpenter: Is Daly's Air Force $$$ a lock for 2021, and if it is, could he take it elsewhere?

Meyer Shank Racing: The recent investment by Liberty sure seems to fast-track their planned expansion into motion, even if it is just for a partial season. This might be my favored landing spot, the team's developed Jack Harvey quite well and Askew could probably use a 'gentler' environment as he gets up to speed.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

Anyone else think Racing Point is getting off easy following Stroll's positive COVID test? Seems like they were awfully reckless, at best.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

Dave wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:52 pm
Anyone else think Racing Point is getting off easy following Stroll's positive COVID test? Seems like they were awfully reckless, at best.
Yes. But the FIA made the COVID rules, and levying a heavy fine would point equally fat fingers at Racing Point for not following protocol and at the FIA for not enforcing its protocol.

And the FIA, especially under the imperious Jean Todt, never will admit mistakes or fault in ANYTHING.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

Johnny Herbert, in a broadcasting role for which he is being paid, has just advised that Racing Point are having a good season, "obviously, for obvious reasons, obviously." I could do that for Sky Sports, I'm available for an immediate start and I'd be cheaper. Obviously.

The clearout at Haas is no great surprise to anyone. The rumour of a Schumacher/Mazepin lineup next season perhaps is, at least in as far as it suggests Ferrari still have a place for Antonio Giovinazzi.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

I'm getting increasingly worried that Williams is going full pay driver next season, if Russell's seat is secure it seems pretty easy for it to be confirmed.

Ready for the Indycar finale in St. Pete this weekend, if anyone is in the area let me know--my seats purchased for March's race will go unused.

Very excited to see what Scott McLaughlin does this weekend, it's a herculean task to get up to speed so quickly on a street course but the guy's talent is undeniable.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

Dave wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:08 am
I'm getting increasingly worried that Williams is going full pay driver next season, if Russell's seat is secure it seems pretty easy for it to be confirmed.

Ready for the Indycar finale in St. Pete this weekend, if anyone is in the area let me know--my seats purchased for March's race will go unused.

Very excited to see what Scott McLaughlin does this weekend, it's a herculean task to get up to speed so quickly on a street course but the guy's talent is undeniable.
McLaughlin's debut is the story of the weekend for me. I'm so fascinated about how he will do.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

It's wild thinking that next season's road courses could feature a 7-time NASCAR champ and the reigning 3-time Supercars champion in addition to Dixon, Newgarden and the rest of the deeply talented Indycar field.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

How about the opening few laps in Portugal?

The onboard from Kimi's car was unreal, like he was playing with AI set way too low on a racing sim. Seeing Sainz zip past both Mercedes to take the lead, also unreal. Once the harder tires worked into their operating window the inevitable happened, but still, quite fun to watch.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

The MotoGP race was pretty batsh*t, just like the entire season. If you're not watching this year on NBC or NBCSN, you're missing the most exciting, competitive major racing series on Earth.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by F308GTB »

Dave wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:13 am
How about the opening few laps in Portugal?

The onboard from Kimi's car was unreal, like he was playing with AI set way too low on a racing sim. Seeing Sainz zip past both Mercedes to take the lead, also unreal. Once the harder tires worked into their operating window the inevitable happened, but still, quite fun to watch.
Best season in years thanks to so many new tracks or a return to tracks not used in years.

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

F308GTB wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:36 pm
Dave wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:13 am
How about the opening few laps in Portugal?

The onboard from Kimi's car was unreal, like he was playing with AI set way too low on a racing sim. Seeing Sainz zip past both Mercedes to take the lead, also unreal. Once the harder tires worked into their operating window the inevitable happened, but still, quite fun to watch.
Best season in years thanks to so many new tracks or a return to tracks not used in years.
Interesting, yes. Best season in years? Hardly. One team has dominated the entire season. One driver has essentially dominated the entire season.

The Mercedes intramural duel between Hamilton and Rosberg in 2016 was 50 times more compelling than this year.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

Bottas is no Rosberg, and I can't figure out if it is more damning for Bottas or praise for Rosberg. Maybe both.

Over time I've forgotten about just how dominant some of the Schumacher/Ferrari years were, but at least some seasons had more variability than we see today. Part of that is from Ferrari's incompetence, leaving only Red Bull on their best days as the only team that has a chance to challenge Mercedes.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

Contrast that with MotoGP, in which eight different riders and four of the six manufacturers have won at least one race this season. With three races remaining, the top 14 riders are mathematically eligible to win the World Championship.

With three races left in F1, Hamilton already will have clinched the title, and there's almost a certainty that just four drivers and two manufacturers will have won at least a race by that point.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by fletcher21 »

Hamilton’s stats are top 5 all time, but is he as good as Schumacher and Senna? I’m not following F1 like I once did, but it sure seems to me like any of the top 8-10 drivers could be on the top step of the podium if they drove for Mercedes. Had Hamilton retired 2 years ago, you would assume that Botas or his teammate would have won the title last year as well as this one. I’m not saying Grosjean could win the title for Mercedes, but someone like Verstappen, Ricciardo, Leclerc,Vettel, Raikkonen or any of the other top drivers in subpar cars could compete.

No doubt Hamilton is very talented, but it sure seems like this Mercedes is the most dominant car of all time. Hamilton is a lot like Schumacher, where he doesn’t make unforced errors. If he’s off to a 5 second lead after a few laps, odds are very good that the race is over at that point, and everyone else is batting for second. I know Schumacher and Senna were both known to take a subpar car and do great things with it. Is Hamilton in that same boat? I honestly don’t remember much about his time with mclaren, when he wasn’t in the #1 car.

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

Fletch, it can sometimes be overlooked that if your team has the best car in Formula 1, you end up in the enviable position of having everyone in the world wanting to drive for you. Mercedes have that and they keep picking Lewis Hamilton, almost as if the biggest talents end up in the best cars on merit. The bloke in the other Merc at present is among the top 8-10 F1 drivers of the moment and spends most of his Sundays trying to work out which way Hamilton went.

Whether he's as good as Schumacher, Senna or whoever else you might consider your personal top dog is a subjective thing. Comparisons between eras are very difficult things to make. Hamilton had only a few weaknesses - the younger man used to lose his head every so often during a championship run-in and wasn't always great at seeing the bigger picture during a race - but they're long since addressed. He's never raced against anyone you could call definitively quicker and unlike the other two you mentioned, he's never used his car as a weapon. Sure, he's usually had good racing cars but when he didn't, in 2009, he still won races. Sure, he was on the missing list for much of 2011 but he was busy thinking about Nicole Scherzinger at the time and I think that's a reasonable excuse.


I've just spend a very enjoyable 50 minutes watching this from 1987. In the space of a few months, Clive James went from not being able to drive a car to competing on the Australian Grand Prix support package. I've watched Clive James: Racing Driver from beginning to end and still can't tell how much he enjoyed himself, but you might have some fun making your own minds up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2qmskArmWg
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

How about Lance Stroll? He's got a heck of a feel in the rain, it was impressive to see him run out into the lead before fading due to the dreaded graining (from front end damage, they claim). Great drives from everyone on the podium, refreshing to see Vettel with a solid run.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by DChaps »

That drive by Hamilton just showcased exactly why he is so great. He always wants to win, no matter what. He does not give up. He knows how to read the car and the track. He has greatly matured over the years with his patience and ability to turn it up exactly when needed or nurse it home. Compare his drive to everyone else out there. I think they said he is the only F1 driver to have a win in every season he has competed in. I do wish Nico had stayed around. Sure it is a dominant car, but you can't really name any of the greats that did not have season(s) in dominant cars.

Paul has pointed this out before, but it is just crazy that Perez is sitting 4th in points (and that is missing two races), gets a 2nd place for his team who he has stuck it out with through thick and thin, only other driver besides Hamilton to score in every race he has competed in this season, and he currently sits with no ride for 2021. I've got nothing against Albon or Norris or Gasly or Ocon or Sainz, but man it seems like Perez has proved himself time and time again.

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

Dave wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:35 pm
How about Lance Stroll? He's got a heck of a feel in the rain, it was impressive to see him run out into the lead before fading due to the dreaded graining (from front end damage, they claim). Great drives from everyone on the podium, refreshing to see Vettel with a solid run.
What about Lance Stroll? He showed last weekend what we've all known: The dude has the speed to deserve a spot in F1, but his adaptability and racecraft are lacking.

A great driver would have coped with the tire graining better or wouldn't have thrown his toys out of the pram the second Plan A was tattered. Stroll never has a Plan B. Perhaps only Grosjean complains more on the radio in F1 than Stroll, and there's a common thread of lack of mental toughness and adaptability in both of them, I think.

Checo Perez started and finished second in the same car that Lance Stroll started first and finished ninth. Stroll is the F1 version of a Gran Turismo hot-lapper. All pace, no racecraft.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Rodster »

I know who I'll be rooting for next year. Haas has signed Mick Schumacher as part of their all-rookie lineup.

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

Assuming they make it official, Haas isn't a bad landing place for Mick. There'll be no expectation of regular points, appearances in Q2 would be a nice bonus and there'll be a chance to learn and develop ready for a proper attack under the new regulations for 2022. That should suit Schumacher nicely, because he is not a man noted for adapting quickly when moving up the ladder. The one potential fly in the ointment is the prospect of being beaten by his likely team mate, one Nikita Mazepin. Mazepin is not entirely useless and there've been signs this season that he could win in F1 if as few as 15 other drivers were disqualified on a given weekend, but a champion in waiting he is not.

Lance Stroll was very, very good through the parts of the weekend he can be fairly judged on and if his car was damaged to the extent that Racing Point suggest it was, I've no idea any of us can go about evaluating the second half of his race. Stroll had a penalty-assisted front row start at a wet Monza for Williams in 2017, so his single lap pace wasn't a giant shock. The composure of his start, followed by a spell in which he looked hugely assured in tricky conditions, was a much bigger surprise to me. I would think, though, that even the most ardent Stroll fan - and I am assured they exist - would admit that his chin seemed to drop very quickly when the race began to drift away from him.

Neither he nor anyone else got within a mile of the level of Lewis Hamilton. Fletch, if I'd known Lewis was going to answer your question for you, I wouldn't have spent quite as much time on my reply...
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