Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

1. Toto Wolff (Mercedes)
(LARGE GAP)
2. Christian Horner (Red Bull)
3. Otmar Szafnauer (Racing Point, an American despite that Germanic name!)
4. Andreas Seidl (McLaren)
5. Franz Tost (Alpha Tauri)
6. Guenther Steiner (Haas)
7. Fred Vasseur (Alfa Romeo)
8. Mattia Binotto (Ferrari)
9. Cyril Abiteboul (Renault)
TBA. TBA (Williams)

Your rankings, Adam and Zlax?
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

Oof. There's a question.

I've had a think about this. The results of that thinking appear here so you can understand how I arrived at this order, or not understand, as the case may be...:

1. Wolff - it would be very easy, and not necessarily wrong, to point out that Ross Brawn was the architect of all this. Foundations are very easy to tear up, though - just look at Ferrari. More than that, Mercedes under Wolff get better every year. How can I rank anyone here but him?

2. Szafnauer - I'm leaning towards the idea that Otmar is a man I admire more than I like, but measured in terms of delivering a consistent bang for the boss man's buck, it's impossible to view him as anything but a success. That goes double for the period in which there wasn't a buck to make a bang with. The next test, assuming the Stroll and Aston Martin deals involve a decent leap in budget, is to see how he spends it.

3. Seidl - a man who knows how to win, doing a very good job of getting McLaren back into a position where you expect the team to do well week-in, week-out. The poster boy for the team's increased willingness not only to acknowledge that maybe Honda weren't all of the issue after all, but to actually do something about it.

4. Horner - I have difficulty getting past that weakness when dealing with the golden boy du jour (Malaysia '13, Baku '18), and I can't shake the suspicion that he's only calling 90% of the shots. This may appear a little harsh, but in a team that wants for nothing and is awash with talent, I'd be more impressed if they were closer to Mercedes more often, or if it was obvious that he had an understanding of why they're not. Further, what if that generational talent in the lead car is flattering it somewhat?

5. Tost - quietly (most of the time) impressive. I find it very hard to pinpoint a particular thing about Franz that impresses me but he's built a very solid team around him, full of strong technical appointments and operationally very sound, as evidenced by the 'shock' podium finishes across the last couple of years.

6=. Steiner, Vasseur - I suspect that I would quite enjoy working for Guenther Steiner, while Fred Vasseur seems a pleasant sort of a chap. Are they doing anything wrong? Not necessarily, though whether Guenther is right to keep his drivers year after year is an interesting question, and whether Fred should ever have withdrawn from that Honda deal is another. I can't put either of them any higher than this because I can't see anything from either man that seems like inspiration, nor any obvious sign that I should expect to.

8. Binotto - "If you don't cheat, you look like an idiot; if you cheat and don't get caught, you look like a hero; if you cheat and get caught, you look like a dope. Put me where I belong."

When did Ferrari last have a team principal you'd put in the top half of one of these lists? Possibly the very early days of Arrivabene, but you'd have done that out of ignorance, as we now know. Not Mattiacci. Early-to-mid Domenicalli?

9. Abiteboul - I always wanted to write about racing cars and racing drivers. I'll never know if I could have made a living from it, because I didn't know how to begin trying and I was far too timid to find out, but I did pick a few things up along the way.

Here's one of them: sports writing is filled with inevitable, unavoidable bias. It's an emotive thing, sport, especially when it awakens as many senses as motor racing does, and where there's emotion, bias is bound to follow. Look at Jenks writing about Moss, Senna or, at the opposite end of the scale, JYS. If that doesn't work, seek out the thoughts of Nigel Roebuck on Gilles or, perhaps even more pertinently, on Didier Pironi.

Cyril Abiteboul is at the bottom of this list. Partly, that's because after so many years at the helm of a factory effort, we ought to be seeing something that at least resembles sustained, tangible progress. Partly, it's because the bit of me that coulda been a contender is niggled by knowing that the man running Renault Sport's F1 team used to run their website. Mainly, though, it's because he comes off to me as being a bit of a prick.

Now, where do I apply for that media accreditation?
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Rodster »

So it’s official. Vettel will replace Perez at Aston Martin next year. Perez is one helluva driver and deserves to be in F1. It would be great if Perez and Hulkenberg replaced the two clowns at Hass but those two are probably on salary friendly contracts.

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

GB_Simo wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:52 pm
2. Szafnauer...The next test, assuming the Stroll and Aston Martin deals involve a decent leap in budget, is to see how he spends it.
I don't think he's spent it too badly here.

On its face, this might not look like a move with many obvious upsides for young Sebby V, but consider these things:

- All of the teams currently ahead of Racing Point spend an awful lot more money. A couple of years from now, that budget cap is going to bring them down to a level somewhere around RP/Force India's normal annual spend. That transition, with the associated need to trim and properly balance your workforce, is going to be a sight easier to manage if you don't really have to make one

- In the meantime, one assumes the first Aston Martin will be taking as many cues as it can from the current Mercedes and will therefore not be a slow racing car. More than that, it'll give him the confidence to pitch aggressively into a corner that is so central to his driving style

- Driver salaries are not included in the budget cap and to my knowledge, Sebastian does not bring money with him (not directly, at least) in the way Perez does. We can reasonably assume, then, that there has indeed been some investment made and that said investment has landed in Seb's pocket. He's already set for several lifetimes but a little ego boost never hurt a racing driver

On top of that, Vettel genuinely loves racing, which is a fairly powerful motivation to continue.

As far as Sergio is concerned, there will be a place on the 2021 grid for him if he wants it. Alfa and Haas seem the obvious choices, with Alfa probably dependent upon Kimi packing in at season's end since their other seat is in Ferrari's control. At Haas, the wicked whisper is that you aren't all that likely to see Romain Grosjean hang around beyond the end of the year. Don't hang the bunting out just yet, Rod, but get it on standby...

The other thing to address, of course, is that Sergio set in motion the process through which Lawrence Stroll bought the team and saved it from extinction. He clearly has a huge amount of goodwill within the team and assuming his version of events is accurate, he deserved to have his departure handled rather better than it has been. However, the notion that the goodwill should extend as far as locking him into a seat over 2 years after the event, with what's likely to be a faster option available to replace him, is one that's a bit lost on me. When exactly is the cut-off point on that one?
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

GB_Simo wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:11 pm
However, the notion that the goodwill should extend as far as locking him into a seat over 2 years after the event, with what's likely to be a faster option available to replace him, is one that's a bit lost on me. When exactly is the cut-off point on that one?
I think most people's issue, including mine, is not with Vettel replacing Perez. It's with the gross nepotism shown by keeping Stroll in the seat.

Well, duh, most say: Not a chance the team owner will fire his son, and the kid is better than I imagined even though I still think his racecraft is a bit dodgy and that he's soft mentally based on the amount of complaining he does on the team radio.

Still, Racing Point talks a great game about wanting to elevate itself among the big fish. But it's all just smoke, mirrors and lip service because a lineup of Vettel and Checo has a much better chance of scoring more Constructors' points than one of Vettel and Lance Stroll.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

There are a fair number of F1 fans on Twitter who've genuinely gone down the 'he saved the team' route. I should reply to them, really, rather than griping on here, but I keep remembering the old line about how idiots bring you down to their level, then use their experience to beat you.

Taking issue with the gross nepotism is entirely understandable. I haven't, particularly. There's an alternative universe in which my Dad brought his millions into the F1 paddock in late 2004 and did a deal with Stoddy to take over Minardi, beating Dietrich Mateschitz to the punch. Aged 19 and struggling with an uncompetitive car, my debut season was a slog but thanks to a Michelin PR disaster at Indy, Takuma Sato spent an entire season trying and failing to shake the standard message board refrain, "Even Simpson has a podium finish!"

It could have been the prelude to a decent little career, had my Dad not been a street cleaner with a heavily-ballasted son. He was and I was, so it wasn't, but the differences between the Strolls and the Simpsons as far as parental backing were ones of opportunity, not mindset. That's probably true for millions of us, so if I got wound up by Lance keeping his drive, what I'd really be is pissed off that my Dad didn't think to involve himself in fashion importing.

Maybe by my 4th season I'd have been 4th in the world championship at the halfway stage, having beaten my well-regarded, experienced team mate 4-1 in races where we both finished. Sadly, those stats don't belong to me. They do, however, belong to Lance at the time of writing. It'd be quite something if come December, it turned out that Racing Point had actually retained their best performer...
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Rodster »

One of the problems with F1 is when there's a quality driver without a ride who should have a seat such Nico Hulkenberg and Sergio Perez. To list a few who are IMO deemed replaceable: Antonio Giovinazzi, Romain Grosjean, K-Mag, Daniil Kvyat, Lance Stroll, Nicholas Latifi (typically at the bottom and beaten by Russell consistently). The only thing this will do to Lance Stroll is bring more criticism from fans and maybe the press. And as PK noted he appears mentally soft in the world of F1, much like other drivers who failed in recent memory, such as Scott Speed, Sebastien Bourdais. And yes I know Seabass has had a solid career in Indycar but F1, Nascar, Indycar all require its unique level of skill. What one driver does in one racing series doesn't mean he'll have success crossing over.

The exceptions are guys like Tony Stewart, Pablo Montoya, The Captain. Jeff Gordon decided to stay in Nascar although I tend to believe he could have success in other racing series.

But back to Stroll, this will put more pressure on him as a liability within the team because if he had trouble keeping up with Perez, Vettel will turn it up even more because he will be seriously motivated to rub any success he has at Aston Martin in Ferrari's face.

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

Perez-to-Haas makes too much sense not to happen, right? Assuming nothing "better" opens up, but I don't know what that would be.

Haas gets rid of Grosjean at a minimum (win), Perez stays in F1 (assuming win), and Haas presumably picks up some of Checo's sponsorship (big win).

If Giovinazzi doesn't return to Alfa, who is the Ferrari Academy driver pegged to replace him?
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

Dave wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:40 pm
Perez-to-Haas makes too much sense not to happen, right? Assuming nothing "better" opens up, but I don't know what that would be.

Haas gets rid of Grosjean at a minimum (win), Perez stays in F1 (assuming win), and Haas presumably picks up some of Checo's sponsorship (big win).

If Giovinazzi doesn't return to Alfa, who is the Ferrari Academy driver pegged to replace him?
Perez to Haas makes sense to me (wasn't he linked to them last year too?) but there a few moving parts to consider. Where Perez goes might depend on whether Raikkonen wishes to stick around, as well as whether that little cameo a few weeks back made anyone hot on the subject of Hulkenberg. It might also depend on exactly how many seats Haas have available and how many Ferrari juniors they'd consider to occupy those seats.

The top 3 drivers in the F2 championship as it stands are part of the Ferrari Academy. Callum Ilott leads from Mick Schumacher and Robert Shwartzman. Ilott and Shwartzman have had higher peaks but Schumacher has been relentlessly consistent. Which one goes to Alfa? Mattia Binotto said the other day that the decision will not be based solely on performance...
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Rodster »

I personally see Mick jumping the line just on name recognition alone but he has also gotten good results which is something Ferrari was hoping for.

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by DChaps »

For anyone watching the 24 Heures du Mans, here are some onboard live streams. To watch full coverage in the US, you need a TV service with MotorTrend TV, which Youtube TV fortunately has.

https://watch.motortrend.com/schedule

24 Heures du Mans 2020 - HIGHLIGHTS STARTING GRID
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbG0-oH96wg

24 Heures du Mans 2020 - HIGHLIGHTS 4.30pm to 6.30pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyMCyH-5ayk

LIVE stream onboard the Dragonspeed Racing Team - Juan Montoya in the cockpit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgRUymH5l2I

TOYOTA GAZOO Racing LIVE - 24h of Le Mans - OnBoard #8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSwG5fg ... e=emb_logo

TOYOTA GAZOO Racing LIVE - 24h of Le Mans - OnBoard #7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldPRMrMWeN8

Onboard #36 SIGNATECH ALPINE ELF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzsdR61 ... e=emb_logo

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

Before you fire me for dereliction of duty, my annual reminder that there are some very good English language commentators working this race. It's just that Eurosport's policy is to avoid hiring them.

If your TV feed has the Eurosport audio, it doesn't have to be that way. Hear the best commentary team in endurance racing here:

http://player.radiolemans.co/

In saying that, the presence of Tom Gaymor has improved the Eurosport effort somewhat this year. In saying that, he had a very, very low bar to clear.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

I missed most of LeMans, but saw the commentators getting dragged online all day and have to say...they did not prepare me for how dreadful they really were during the nighttime coverage I watched.

Had a hard time getting as excited as usual for the race in general, some of that is due to the weakness of LMP1 but not having Chevy or Ford in GTE Pro hurt a lot as well. I just can't get around to caring much for LMP2.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

Imagine the Indy 500 with just Penske and a bunch of minnows. No Ganassi. No Andretti. No Arrow McLaren SP.

That's the marquee class this year at Le Mans, P1. It was Toyota versus the three dwarfs -- five cars in your premier class?

LMP 2 is like Moto 2 - it's full of machines and competitive, but it's the JV compared to the varsity.

GTE Pro is legit, but like Dave said, Americans enjoy it better with Ford and Corvette. GTE Am is filled with rich slapdicks paired with fading or never-were pro drivers who are eager to take the check and get a Le Mans victory through the easiest door.

It was really hard for me to be interested in Le Mans this year for those reasons. I don't know how anyone could call Le Mans "the world's greatest race" this year when looking at the tiny P1 class and a GTE Pro class with just eight cars and three manufacturers. Your top TWO classes consist of 13 cars total?

Child, please.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Rodster »

pk500 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:32 am
Imagine the Indy 500 with just Penske and a bunch of minnows. No Ganassi. No Andretti. No Arrow McLaren SP.

That's the marquee class this year at Le Mans, P1. It was Toyota versus the three dwarfs -- five cars in your premier class?

LMP 2 is like Moto 2 - it's full of machines and competitive, but it's the JV compared to the varsity.

GTE Pro is legit, but like Dave said, Americans enjoy it better with Ford and Corvette. GTE Am is filled with rich slapdicks paired with fading or never-were pro drivers who are eager to take the check and get a Le Mans victory through the easiest door.

It was really hard for me to be interested in Le Mans this year for those reasons. I don't know how anyone could call Le Mans "the world's greatest race" this year when looking at the tiny P1 class and a GTE Pro class with just eight cars and three manufacturers. Your top TWO classes consist of 13 cars total?

Child, please.
Your comment takes me back to a discussion we had awhile back that Auto Racing as a sport will probably be vastly different in 25-30 yrs and that's if it's even around. I can't remember if it was Vettel who said it but a current F1 driver warned that F1 on its current trajectory may not exist in 20 yrs. And this all goes back to our discussion about vehicle ownership. There really isn't the attachment with vehicles that was there 30-40 yrs ago. Now more people lease cars and theres driverless cars on the horizon. You have ride sharing and Uber and Lyft have made the decision easier for potential buyers to skip owning a car.

I can envision more and more car mfg rethinking the budget required to participate in an Auto series. Even Nascar is now beginning to feel the pinch.

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

Gents, is there more than meets the eye to Zach Veach's immediate departure from Andretti or is he genuinely as magnanimous as I'm being invited to believe? While I'm on, is his replacement as obvious as it would seem, or will it in fact not be a sponsor-friendly Canadian with recent broadcasting experience?
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

GB_Simo wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:57 pm
Gents, is there more than meets the eye to Zach Veach's immediate departure from Andretti or is he genuinely as magnanimous as I'm being invited to believe? While I'm on, is his replacement as obvious as it would seem, or will it in fact not be a sponsor-friendly Canadian with recent broadcasting experience?
The Veach departure is interesting.

On one hand, it's not unexpected. Zach is a SUPER-nice kid, but he's not getting the job done in the seat, even by the standards of a dreadful season for Andretti. Everyone figured he would be out after this season due to poor results.

As for the early departure, all I can surmise -- and this is just a guess -- is that Gainbridge CEO Dan Towriss told Andretti he wants to see results over the last three races of the final season of this sponsorship contract, or he will pull the plug or go elsewhere. Especially since two of those three races take place at IMS, Gainbridge's home market.

Veach won't give Andretti the best shot to keep Gainbridge if Towriss' ultimatum is the case, so one would think Hinchcliffe is in the on-deck circle as the sponsor savior.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

GB_Simo wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:47 pm
For a few races now, I've been meaning to ask when Ocon is going to start blowing the doors off Ricciardo. His reputation, not to mention his chances of eventuality getting that Mercedes drive, surely depend on it. In the absence of that, his best chance would seem to be having a 2021 team mate who isn't known for pace, tenacity or gamesmanship. Fernando who, sorry?
...and still we wait.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

Indeed. I've just read his post-race interview, in which he says that was his best race of the season until he put the hard tyres on. That all feels a bit, "How did you enjoy the play, Mrs Lincoln?" to me but perhaps there's some nuance I've missed in there.

View Ocon's F1 career retrospectively and you bump into this lot:

- Rio Haryanto: Ocon replaced him at Manor and was an instant step up. I once watched Haryanto in an Auto GP race at Donington. I saw him go through Goddards perhaps 20 times, using 20 different lines, none of them especially close to the apex and a couple of them wide enough that I thought about introducing myself. That day, it struck me that his true calling probably lay elsewhere.

- Pascal Wehrlein: Ocon was reasonably near to but, from memory, generally a bit behind Wehrlein during their Manor stint. At the time, many thought that Wehrlein was headed to far better things. At the time.

- Sergio Perez: I like Sergio. He's a very solid upper-midfield F1 driver. I would expect a major talent to see him off over a season, which Esteban did not. Twice.

On reflection, that F3 title he beat Max Verstappen to would seem to be doing an awful lot of heavy lifting, would it not?
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Rodster »

Honda drops the bombshell that they are leaving F1 after 2021 when the new regulations begin. This is all another sign that car mfgs see little incentive to pour hundreds of millions into a racing series and get little in return. In years past people drove more and had an attachment with their automobiles but today is different with fewer people actually buying cars and just either leasing or doing rideshare. It's a different time indeed for Motorsports.

Now the only viable options for Red Bull and their sister teams are:

1) Use Renault engines
2) Attract a new engine mfg (unlikely)
3) Leave F1 altogether

I would not discount option # 3

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by GB_Simo »

Honda's departure isn't a massive surprise. Every manufacturer stays only for as long as F1 continues to fit with their aims and Honda tend not to be shy about cutting ties - by my count, this is their fourth exit from F1 at the end of their second longest stay.

At Goodwood last summer, the main attraction at the Honda stand was the Honda e, the presence of which at a shrine to the oversized combustion engine told me an awful lot about where the company was headed next. It has as much in common with an F1 car as I have with a rhythmic gymnast and in being that way, it highlights the big issue the sport needs to tackle urgently - how do you make the engine formula attractive to all comers?

If the justification for the current regs was road relevance, that's long gone: there's only the Mercedes-AMG Project One that's anywhere near using the same tech and it's not exactly a mass market proposition. If the future is electric, then not only did a number of other series get there first, but the existing tech will fundamentally change everything about the sport to the extent that F1 can't move yet. If you want to encourage specialist tuners back to the sport - the modern equivalent of a grid full of Cosworth, Judd, Motori Moderni and so on - how do you do that without alienating the big guns, and how do you make the formula cost effective without taking steps that would be viewed as hugely regressive?

I'm glad it's not my problem to solve. Somebody needs to, though, and I'd say there needs to be a bit of urgency around it.
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Rodster »

I say it again. I think it was a big BIG mistake getting rid of the loud V8 engines. You go to and watch races to be entertained. The current engines do nothing for the Sport in my view. The big guns love the new engines but from an entertainment standpoint they offer so little to the fans. The races are boring but for the Mercedes fans.

I have not watched a single race this year and the most excitement is playing F1 2020. I agree with Adam, i'm glad it's not my problem to fix.

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Rodster »

I just read that Nascar is going to mix it up and if true about damn time. They are dropping a few tracks, some 2nd scheduled races at certain tracks and adding 6 road course races and 1 dirt race. This supposedly is taking place next year.

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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by pk500 »

Rodster wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:02 am
I just read that Nascar is going to mix it up and if true about damn time. They are dropping a few tracks, some 2nd scheduled races at certain tracks and adding 6 road course races and 1 dirt race. This supposedly is taking place next year.
It's not supposed: NASCAR released its 2021 schedule last week. It's happening.
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Dave
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Re: Racing Season 2020 (Spoiler Alert)

Post by Dave »

Decided to head to Indy last weekend to attend the Harvest GP (Inaugural, says the stickers...or only one, most likely). With everything going on it was the last chance before winter to spend time with my family outdoors before everything turns too cold in Indy and Minnesota--my wife and I are much more cautious with the virus than the rest of my family. It was a great time and both of my boys had a blast, we just hung out after the second race on Saturday taking pictures while I enjoyed being on the grounds of IMS.

One takeaway is that it is the series really needs to look at race distances. The difference between race 1, with REALLY wide windows for a 3-stop race, and race 2, where all but a few cars went with two stops in a 2/3-lap window, was HUGE. My oldest son is just getting into racing and we talked a lot about why Friday's race was more exciting to him and it really drove that point home.

And finally, we're still a couple weeks or so away from the anniversary of the tragic crash that took the life of Tony Renna but being at the first IndyCar races in...over a decade?...at Indy in October brought my thoughts to him. I was lucky enough to work briefly with Tony, just as a stupid intern while he drove in Indy Lights. One of my assignments was to accompany him on a visit to Motorola, his car's sponsor. How Tony interacted with me sticks with me to this day. Here I was just a dumb kid that mostly just laminated schedules and other dumb sh*t for the PR/Marketing teams, but he seemed genuinely interested in who I was, what I did, and what I wanted to do with my life as we drove to Chicago. He was such a great kid and had the room eating out of his hand by the end of the appearance.

I followed his career closely and was so excited for what lied ahead after he signed with Ganassi to be Dixon's teammate. For it all to be ripped away, so cruelly, so quickly...it still eats at me to this day. The kid was going to be a star and was an even better person than driver, we all missed out.
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