NASCAR Heat 4

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NASCAR Heat 4

Post by TCrouch »

For those of you who are into racing games but haven't followed along with the rebooted NASCAR Heat series, I haven't been this excited for a NASCAR release in years...possibly in 15 years since the NASCAR Racing 2003 edition on PC. Rather than taking a "back of the box" feature as a focus, they went and re-tooled everything to fix almost every irritation I had with the previous 3 versions from 704 games. My own bullet pointed list of awesome improvements are as follows:

* Completely retooled physics engine. Instead of the dreaded "center-pole" physics style that I HATE in racing games (where the car is pivoting around a center pole), they now have full physics around each tire. You can drive the car off the right rear, and you have a car that you can feel much better compared to previous entries. In oval racing, it's a must to have a solid feel for whether you're burning up the RF or RR driving it too hard. It's finally in NH4.

* AI will actually run multiple lines. This has been attempted before, but the AI would only pick "multiple lines" when passing another car. What you'd see in actual racing is one 'fast' line around a track. This is completely gone. I've seen the AI go four-wide passing, but when you're racing you'll see cars physically move around the track looking for speed. They'll search high, search low. Some drivers like Kyle Larson will move up to the wall and live there, cutting off your corner exit and carrying incredible speed down the straights. Conversely, you can run high and the AI no longer overdrives the corner--in previous games, they'd charge every corner at speeds that would absolutely destroy their RF, but the AI would never suffer for it. Also gone (more on that in a bit).

* Tire wear is a real thing. Combined with the physics overhaul, the tire wear has been completely re-tooled. As you lose grip, the car can become genuinely slippery. Trying to drive around on old tires feels like driving on ice, so the decision to stay on old tires is sketchy as hell. But since the physics are such a big deal now, you really need to take care of your tires. The AI is subject to the same rules (which you can change), so you can finally run a patient race and have a "long run" car, instead of charging every corner like a bat out of hell to compete with the AI.

* Completely customizable experience. This sounds like a sales pitch, but they gave controls to fine-tune the experience for any driver type. There are settings for how stable AI cars are when you make contact with them, how good the drivers are at recovering from those incidents, how stable YOUR car is when making contact, how much tire wear or fuel use the AI has in relation to the player, etc. You can set it to be an arcade game where you can bang off of cars and everybody is as stable as a rock, or make it so the slightest contact will require massive saves to deal with. The "ping pong" effect of touching a car in the previous NH games is completely gone. There are slight rubs, bump drafting, and incidental contact without ruining a race. Amazingly well done. After playing NH3 recently before moving up to NH4, it's like night and day. Almost no frustration with NH4's AI and racing, whereas I could rarely finish a race (using a controller atm) in NH3.

I could go on, and on, but for anybody who WANTS to have a decent NASCAR game, but has been frustrated recently...give NH4 a look. It is like a completely new game. I think the biggest thing pre-release I noticed was guys who did long-term careers in NH3 (up to 100 episodes in some cases) got early code for NH4 and played it. When they went back to NH3, they couldn't drive it anymore. The ping-ponging and crashes were everywhere, and they all, to a man, said that NH4 was so much better it ruined NH3 for them.

I was sold, and I'm so glad I did.

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by Rodster »

The over all game might be good but I can't get past:

1) Unity engine
2) Nickel and dime your customers with bullshit paint jobs and charge for additional spotters after spending $50 for the game.

I purchased Nascar Heat 2 and felt I got taken after buying the game plus season pack. NH3 was just a tweaked version of NH2. They sold the 2019 Season pack and to my understanding it did not include the Toyota Supra's.

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by pk500 »

Rodster wrote:The over all game might be good but I can't get past:

1) Unity engine
2) Nickel and dime your customers with bullshit paint jobs and charge for additional spotters after spending $50 for the game.

I purchased Nascar Heat 2 and felt I got taken after buying the game plus season pack. NH3 was just a tweaked version of NH2. They sold the 2019 Season pack and to my understanding it did not include the Toyota Supra's.
THIS, especially No. 1.

I'm not a graphics whore, but the framerate hiccups of NH 3 on console definitely affected gameplay. NH 3 looked and often played like a bad Xbox 360 port.

704 can implement all of the changes it wants, but it's pretty sad that 704 still is using a mobile game graphics engine from 2005 as the foundation of its current console and PC games. Hell, NASCAR Racing 2003 looked better and played more smoothly than NH 3.
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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by TCrouch »

Yeah, NH3 was rough, engine wise.

Not the same problems I had with the previous games with NH4 using the Unity 2.0 engine, but the nickel and dime stuff for paint schemes is definitely still there.

I've never been a big purchaser of those car packs, so I never noticed that. But I definitely see how that would irritate people.

I'm just happy I can have believable AI racing in a NASCAR game, finally.

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by pk500 »

TCrouch wrote:Yeah, NH3 was rough, engine wise.

Not the same problems I had with the previous games with NH4 using the Unity 2.0 engine, but the nickel and dime stuff for paint schemes is definitely still there.
I assume you're playing on PC, Terry? I don't trust 704 to make an attractive NASCAR game with a dependable framerate for console while using the Unity engine.
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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by Murph »

Definitely NOT buying the ‘Deluxe’ version today (Tue) just to spend an extra $20 ($79.99) for those alternative paint schemes, etc.

This Friday, the 13th for the standard edition at $59.99
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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by TCrouch »

pk500 wrote:
TCrouch wrote:Yeah, NH3 was rough, engine wise.

Not the same problems I had with the previous games with NH4 using the Unity 2.0 engine, but the nickel and dime stuff for paint schemes is definitely still there.
I assume you're playing on PC, Terry? I don't trust 704 to make an attractive NASCAR game with a dependable framerate for console while using the Unity engine.
Yeah, but I'm trying the XBox version tonight when I get home. Oddly, I only had NH3 on XBox last year and never got it on PC.

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by Rodster »

I just can't support a developer that's taking advantage of its customers by offering an inferior product compared to the competition. I'm talking about graphics. When I compare what Codemasters is doing with an aging EGO Engine that came out around 2007 vs any Nascar Heat game and it's pretty insulting this isn't a $20 game with all the bullshit paint jobs and spotters thrown in.

I'm no fan of Codie's Grid series but graphics and special effects, compare Grid 2 or Grid 3 Autosport and it's pretty laughable what 704 is selling.

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by pk500 »

I'm with you, Rod. I think it's joke that a company is selling a full-priced title that runs on a graphics engine that was unveiled in June 2005 for effing mobile games.

It's one thing if the graphics are ugly. It's another when that graphics engine hurts gameplay, which is clearly the case with Unity and the first three editions of NASCAR Heat.

I would love a good oval racing game. But I'm not paying full price for one with such a moldy graphics engine unless the racing and AI are the bastard offspring of a three-way between NR 2003, TOCA 3 and Codemasters' recent F1 titles.

Just been burned too many times by 704 Games.
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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by TCrouch »

Hey, at least I know to keep the posts to myself, then! :lol:

I really don't think it looks bad on the new engine, and I could call out damn near every development company on the planet for trying to make money and crazy predatory tactics. I don't think they're nearly as bad as EA, and while they're direct competitors to Codies, the dev team is like 1/20th of the size, so I haven't had any problems with what they've put out.

To each his/her own!

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by DChaps »

I have been playing NH4 since midnight and so far I am loving it. The racing AI, the physics, the feel with a FFB wheel, sound, graphics, all big improvements. Very happy so far. I have a Xbox One X and it does still have some stuttering on a road course like the Charlotte Roval, but it's not terrible. It's not exciting, but you can check out my most recent Mixer streams of it below. I will be streaming my career later tonight. :)

https://mixer.com/DChaps66

Here is a pretty fair review that seems to mimic what I have seen so far with about 6 hours of playing time.

https://www.polygon.com/reviews/2019/9/ ... box-one-pc

Terry, let me know if you pick it up for Xbox and want to try some multiplayer.

PS - I think the standard version is only $49.99 just like the standard version of WRC 8 is also $49.99, at least on Xbox store for digital download.

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by pk500 »

I respect the hell out of your opinions, Terry and Don. But I barely spend any money on games these days, due to EA Access, Xbox Game Pass and diminished time with a controller in my hand.

A game almost needs to blow my mind for me to spend $50 or $60.

Carry on with your impressions, though. I'm sure there are people here who are very interested in this game and value your always-excellent feedback.

Thanks.
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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

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TCrouch wrote:Hey, at least I know to keep the posts to myself, then! :lol:

I really don't think it looks bad on the new engine, and I could call out damn near every development company on the planet for trying to make money and crazy predatory tactics. I don't think they're nearly as bad as EA, and while they're direct competitors to Codies, the dev team is like 1/20th of the size, so I haven't had any problems with what they've put out.

To each his/her own!
We don't mean to sh*t on your thread Terry but the problem is 704 Games has been given a pass (no pun intended) the last couple of years. The excuse of being a small time developer when this same developer for some unknown reason could have used the graphics engine of Nascar '15 which was miles ahead of the Unity graphics engine 704 decided to go with. So if you nickel and dime your customers at least use some of that money to hire more people to make a better game "graphics wise" but they don't. The difference between the graphics of Nascar '15 Victory Edition and Nascar Heat 3 is shockingly bad.

As PK said, the problem with the Unity engine is, it affects gameplay. Maybe it's better with beefier hardware but again why should we have to invest in better hardware when Codemaster's F1 games look 20x better and I can get it to run at near 60 FPS on 6 year old hardware with HIGH settings. Nascar Heat 2 was a stutter-fest. I tried NH3 and it was the same, the dirt series was even worse performance wise.
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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by pk500 »

DChaps wrote:Here is a pretty fair review that seems to mimic what I have seen so far with about 6 hours of playing time.

https://www.polygon.com/reviews/2019/9/ ... box-one-pc
As a longtime IMS employee, I respect Polygon for using a screenshot of a Cup race at Indy featuring full grandstands. Warms this old, cold heart, even if it's sadly no longer realistic. :)
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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by pk500 »

Sadly, this paragraph from the Polygon review is enough for me to avoid this game:

"This helps sweeten what can still be a rough-performing game on launch consoles, where mud tracks from the last lap on dirt vanish in front of you, and speedway and superspeedway surfaces stutter as they whiz by above 160 mph. Screen tearing and frame drop is much more pronounced for launch consoles on rolling, dipping tracks like Atlanta Motor Speedway or Dover International Raceway, and those flaws can and will hurt your driving. Those playing on an Xbox One X or PlayStation 4 Pro should have the advantage."

I'm still rocking an OG Xbox One. Not even an S, let alone an X.

No bueno, 704. Sorry.
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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by TCrouch »

DChaps wrote:Terry, let me know if you pick it up for Xbox and want to try some multiplayer.
I'll be on tonight for sure, Don. I already have it, I just haven't fired it up yet on the console.

And by all means, Rod, PK--absolutely share your opinions! I wasn't worried about sh*tting on the thread, Rod. I honestly hadn't even thought of some of the stuff you guys pointed out, and it seemed like I was the only guy interested in it. I wasn't going to waste anybody's time, is all. I'll be playing the snot out of it, for sure :)

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by TCrouch »

So, yeah...DEFINITELY framerate issues throughout. I noticed them, as there were frequent spots where it was stuttery enough that I almost hit a wall.

And yet, for some crazy reason, I had nothing but a blast. I ran all night without once instance I can think of of an AI car not respecting my position and killing me. Race after race--3, 4 wide, they raced competitively and fairly.

One of my favorite things now is they'll get a run on you, and getting into a corner, give you a subtle chrome horn. It makes you carry a little more speed into a corner, and while you're braking and collecting yourself, the AI cars will pass underneath. I actually lost a battle on the last lap with the AI last night due to that.

It's absolutely GLORIOUS out on the track, but those framerate issues will piss off just about everybody here. It doesn't look nearly as bad as previous versions, though. The new lighting updates work wonders for the title. And I normally don't like motion blur, but in this game it at least stops the crazy flickering fences and crap that Unity had before. Normally I have a tough time seeing a game on XBox compared to PC, but this one didn't look too bad (except for that frame rate).

Force Feedback is all sorts of weird on my Fanatec Clubsport V2 with the XBox hub, though. Chattery, not 'normal' FF, if that makes sense. Not sure what Don is running.

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by Rodster »

Nice impressions Terry, the AI in the current Nascar Heat series have always been good and it keeps getting better. The big letdown regarding AI for a Nascar game was in NR2003. That just had really lame AI.

But..but.. I still can't support a developer who's a cheapskate and lazy and has decided to stay the course with Unity.

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

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Rodster wrote:Nice impressions Terry, the AI in the current Nascar Heat series have always been good and it keeps getting better. The big letdown regarding AI for a Nascar game was in NR2003. That just had really lame AI.

But..but.. I still can't support a developer who's a cheapskate and lazy and has decided to stay the course with Unity.
The criticism of using the Unity engine and/or older technology may be valid, but your reason is pure conjecture. iRacing gets the same complaints all the time as most people believe it is basically running on the NR2003 engine and it is a MUCH more expensive product. Normally I just let this stuff go, but there are usually far more factors involved in what appears to be a "dumb" development decision. As a developer/development manager, I would love to be able to hear the actual reasons from some gaming development teams as to why certain design decisions are made, but usually those teams are under contracts where they are unable to answer those questions. Many times it may be due to cost, time, and budget constraints from other sources above their pay grade, but it's rarely because they are lazy and usually the developers are not the ones that will make a lot more money off of micro transactions or cost cutting design decisions. Again, the criticism is valid, but there is a much improved racing game in here with Nascar Heat 4 and unfortunately there are no other options available to get a current good oval stock car fix until iRacing adds AI to it's product. :)

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by Rodster »

DChaps wrote:
Rodster wrote:Nice impressions Terry, the AI in the current Nascar Heat series have always been good and it keeps getting better. The big letdown regarding AI for a Nascar game was in NR2003. That just had really lame AI.

But..but.. I still can't support a developer who's a cheapskate and lazy and has decided to stay the course with Unity.
The criticism of using the Unity engine and/or older technology may be valid, but your reason is pure conjecture. iRacing gets the same complaints all the time as most people believe it is basically running on the NR2003 engine and it is a MUCH more expensive product. Normally I just let this stuff go, but there are usually far more factors involved in what appears to be a "dumb" development decision. As a developer/development manager, I would love to be able to hear the actual reasons from some gaming development teams as to why certain design decisions are made, but usually those teams are under contracts where they are unable to answer those questions. Many times it may be due to cost, time, and budget constraints from other sources above their pay grade, but it's rarely because they are lazy and usually the developers are not the ones that will make a lot more money off of micro transactions or cost cutting design decisions. Again, the criticism is valid, but there is a much improved racing game in here with Nascar Heat 4 and unfortunately there are no other options available to get a current good oval stock car fix until iRacing adds AI to it's product. :)
And no doubt Nascar Heat 4 is a good game Don. But you have to question the motives of any developer when they use a mobile platform engine and port it to the consoles and PC's.

The Unity engine just plain sucks as a gaming platform outside of iOS and Android. Every Unity game i've played on either the PC has looked a) average graphics b) performed like trying to run in a mud filled lake with combat boots. Where I question the developers motives is that instead of producing a nice looking game running on Unreal 3 or 4 with solid performance instead they target micro transactions for BS paint jobs and voice spotters. Their Season update pack during the beginning of the season is usually nothing more than more BS paint jobs and some of the reviews say they are not totally accurate. The season update pack released earlier this year from what i've read is missing the Toyota Supra. That's LAZY if true.

And Don as a developer yourself this issue of poor performance of stuttering and loss of FPS has been going on since Nascar Heat Evolution. That's my problem with this developer and that's why I have an axe to grind with their games, much like PK has an axe to grind with Ian Bell.

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by pk500 »

Agree with your criticism of the "lazy" allegations, Don, but I will contest your comparison of the graphics in iRacing and NH 4.

Almost anyone can get a playable framerate with iRacing by tweaking various graphics options. There aren't as many options for console players of NH 4, especially those on OG Xbox Ones like me. So, yes, the decision to continue with the Unity engine -- regardless of the reason -- does screw a decent chunk of gamers from buying this title.

One would think the expense required to use a more modern graphics engine could be matched or exceeded by the increased sales that a title with a steady framerate would produce.

Rod is right: It's inexcusable for a developer of a $50 or $60 game to use a 14-year-old mobile graphics engine. It may not be "lazy," as Rod said, but it's cheap as f*ck from a developer of what amounts to a full-priced game that's little more than a glorified Arcade title.
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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by Rodster »

pk500 wrote:Agree with your criticism of the "lazy" allegations, Don, but I will contest your comparison of the graphics in iRacing and NH 4.

Almost anyone can get a playable framerate with iRacing by tweaking various graphics options. There aren't as many options for console players of NH 4, especially those on OG Xbox Ones like me. So, yes, the decision to continue with the Unity engine -- regardless of the reason -- does screw a decent chunk of gamers from buying this title.

One would think the expense required to use a more modern graphics engine could be matched or exceeded by the increased sales that a title with a steady framerate would produce.

Rod is right: It's inexcusable for a developer of a $50 or $60 game to use a 14-year-old mobile graphics engine. It may not be "lazy," as Rod said, but it's cheap as f*ck from a developer for what amounts to a full-priced game that's little more than a glorified Arcade title.
But if it isn't LAZY then why sell a season update and NOT include the Toyota Supra? I had no idea the Supra was included this year in the Cup series until I read complaints in the Steam forums. And the complaints also have been that their paint schemes are not accurate as well, that's lazy if you ask me if you are charging for it.

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by Rodster »

Yup, we've hijacked Terry's thread :lol:

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by DChaps »

The comparison with iRacing was more from the standpoint of criticism of an aging platform for the price, but 100% agree that iRacing is infinitely more playable from a performance standpoint and still can look VERY pretty with a modestly decent PC, so point taken on that part of the comparison. :)

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Re: NASCAR Heat 4

Post by TCrouch »

Don, I saw on your Mixer video from today that you're using a wheel. Do you have "normal" FF with the wheel (and which one are you using)?

Using my Xbox hub and the Clubsport v2, it's this constant "chattering", like it is simulating me driving down a cobblestone road. It's very distracting, and the only option I had was to turn the strength down to about 10% to make it almost a dead wheel.

Does the FF feel normal and smooth to you, or is it very "chattery", for lack of a better word?

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