The Beautiful Game thread, season 2017/18

[Jimmydeicide]

[10spro]

New manager, same disappointing result for Argentina. A freaking tie in Buenos Aires vs the last team Venezuela? A total lack of ideas, imprecision in the passes, lack of finish (M. Icardi should have converted 4 goals on his own) and as the game went on, Venezuela played a 6-3-1 formation. Two games remaining, everything is looking iffy for Russia.

Very concerned...

[wco81]

Hard to imagine the US looking worse than they did against Costa Rica, but they proved more than up to the task in the first half at Honduras.

I would very much favor them failing to qualify for the WC if that meant the systemic changes in player development and structural reorganization that US soccer needs. I know, however, that it wouldn't make a lick of difference, so I'm stuck rooting for this steaming pile of $hit.

PS Arena owes me for the emotional distress he's causing me by watching Beasley flail around out there. Watching a once brilliantly-gifted athlete reduced to spectating as wingers blow by him is too sad for words.

Isn't that what Klinsmann was suppose to do?

He had 5 years. I don't know if that's enough or not enough time to make systemic changes.

Or if he even attempted such during the time here.

With Arena, I would guess the immediate goal is to qualify. But afterwards? Well Arena had a stint before and he didn't make changes ...

[Rodster]

Hard to imagine the US looking worse than they did against Costa Rica, but they proved more than up to the task in the first half at Honduras.

I would very much favor them failing to qualify for the WC if that meant the systemic changes in player development and structural reorganization that US soccer needs. I know, however, that it wouldn't make a lick of difference, so I'm stuck rooting for this steaming pile of $hit.

PS Arena owes me for the emotional distress he's causing me by watching Beasley flail around out there. Watching a once brilliantly-gifted athlete reduced to spectating as wingers blow by him is too sad for words.

Isn't that what Klinsmann was suppose to do?

He had 5 years. I don't know if that's enough or not enough time to make systemic changes.

Or if he even attempted such during the time here.

With Arena, I would guess the immediate goal is to qualify. But afterwards? Well Arena had a stint before and he didn't make changes ...

And wasn't Klinsmann's systemic change to bring in some international players to help bridge the gap but was frowned upon because the regime wanted homegrown talent which is limited when they are seeking careers playing in the NFL and the NBA where the money's at?

[RobVarak]

Hard to imagine the US looking worse than they did against Costa Rica, but they proved more than up to the task in the first half at Honduras.

I would very much favor them failing to qualify for the WC if that meant the systemic changes in player development and structural reorganization that US soccer needs. I know, however, that it wouldn't make a lick of difference, so I'm stuck rooting for this steaming pile of $hit.

PS Arena owes me for the emotional distress he's causing me by watching Beasley flail around out there. Watching a once brilliantly-gifted athlete reduced to spectating as wingers blow by him is too sad for words.

Isn't that what Klinsmann was suppose to do?

He had 5 years. I don't know if that's enough or not enough time to make systemic changes.

Or if he even attempted such during the time here.

With Arena, I would guess the immediate goal is to qualify. But afterwards? Well Arena had a stint before and he didn't make changes ...

To some extent he was supposed to change the way US Soccer itself worked, but the problem is bigger than that. Really, it's a job that involves more than just the USSF and you are correct that five years isn't enough time.

Problem No. 1 remains: We're still depending on players to fund their own development to far too large a degree. For years people thought MLS would improve the level of US talent, but the existing structure of private clubs and the NCAA has meant that there isn't enough incentive for the MLS clubs to make a meaningful investment in really aggressive talent acquisition and development. They fund grass roots organizations, but these still comprise a minute % of all of the clubs in the country, and by and large they are mining the same talent pool as those other clubs. The private, player-funded clubs, no matter how much they market as development tools, are incentivized to play to win. Coaches are pros and parents are only attracted to programs that will win and put them on the path to scholarship dollars.

This is compounded by the free and easy acquisition of foreign talent by MLS clubs, which has the effect of improving the level of the very CONCACAF teams against whom the US is trying to qualify.

The league has become:
1. High-floor, low-ceiling players from the US who have funded their own development
2. Higher-risk but higher-upside foreign players who are getting access to better training and competition than they used to get in their domestic leagues.
3. The smattering of washed-up stars from the European leagues who don't really figure into the CONCACAF picture.

So how does the US start to mine the population for better athletes and train them better? I'm brainstoming a bit as I write, but I think the only way is basic economics. The money in the domestic game all passes through MLS. Their TV deals are improving, they're expanding, and local sponsorship grows every year. The homegrown player incentives were a start, but that clearly hasn't been enough.

I'm a free-trader at heart, but it may be that a quota system is needed to further encourage the expansion and improvement of the academies. Teams need to get into under-served areas and let kids know that MLS may not be the path to immediate millionaire-hood, but it can be a way to make a living as an athlete.

Some of this is also cultural. Soccer may benefit from the building exodus away from football, although to a large extent the socio-economic strata that is leaving football is the same as that which is already well-exploited by soccer. A less immigrant friendly political environment is certainly not going to help the game, unfortunately.

Klinsmann tried to get around some of these issues by shaking the carpet to see what European-based and dual-citizenship kids trained in Europe he could find. This caused pretty serious blowback in the media and, it appears, in the locker room. But his willingness to innovate, even in this limited way, was refreshing even as it was an indication of the kinds of problems we have with domestic players.

[wco81]

I heard the other day that Atlanta United outdraws PSG.

Anyways, yeah he lost the USMNT locker room and it seemed it was mostly the holdover players who'd tuned him out.

Now did they resent players like Pulisic, since he has the potential for a more substantial career in Europe than any of them?

[10spro]

This Conmebol qualifying to Russia is such a roulette that’s driving me bonkers. Argentina who’s in life support needed a win tonight but just managed a scoreless draw vs Peru. It gets down to the last game vs Ecuador next week. Win or miss the WC. Bolivia also ties powerful Brazil although Neymar and CO are already in.

Uruguay also couldn’t seal their fate tonight vs Venezuela. Colombia was stunned against Paraguay and Chile is keeping their slim hopes alive with a key late win against Ecuador.

Bolivia, Venezuela, Peru, I mean these teams used to be the laughing stock in SA and they are all playing spoilers.

What a lottery draw, it’s driving me nuts...

[10spro]

Damn it, it didn’t have to come down to the last game. I really didn’t have to suffer this much did I? How can anyone imagine Argentina out of a World Cup? Imagine my thoughts after only 30 seconds in the game and Ecuador scores first. Can this be really over?

But Messi, oh Messi, the saviour, the same player whom the whole nation was so tough with after not being able to win a WC last time vs the Germans. The Messi who just couldn’t execute his skills for his beloved country as he would every year for Barcelona, did what I thought he could always do.

He was the difference, the reason they won tonight 3-1 in a must win game scoring a hat trick.

It’s all over now, Argentina had to play the very last game to find out if they could go to Russia. It’s been a wreaking week with nerves, anxiety, but I am feeling so relieved now, so thankful for Leonel Messi.

[Rodster]

The USA were eliminated with the loss to Trinidad and Tobago.

[dbdynsty25]

That was an embarrassing game.

At least Argentina is in. Would be a travesty to not see Messi in what could be his last world cup. Starting to get a little old.

[pk500]

Taylor Twellman just made great point on ESPN: If Iceland can qualify through tough UEFA and USA can’t qualify through softer CONCACAF, then we don’t belong. Hopefully this leads to firing of Sunil Gulati as head of USA Soccer.

[pk500]

Where’s Chuck Blazer and his bribes when we need them for a backdoor entry into Russia?

Seriously, this is a huge setback for the beautiful game in this country. Casuals only care about the USMNT in the World Cup.

[RobVarak]

At the risk of beating this dead horse into a pulp...

The problem with US Soccer is simple. The process of refining the raw material of young soccer players in this country, of which there is an abundance of both quantity and quality, into polished world-class players is a failure. Access to the best development opportunities is on a pay-to-play basis that excludes the overwhelming majority of athletes.

It's the solutions that are hard.

I'm afraid that no matter how humiliating this experience may be, it's not going to be able to shatter the entrenched financial structure that is retarding the development process. Wildly expensive travel teams, weak HS programs and a bizarre MLS development structure are at the heart of this.

We need outside of the box solutions, but there is no financial incentive to implement any of them.

Maybe restructuring MLS to allow all players signed before age 18 to remain outside the salary cap would incentivize the clubs to do more than their token investment in academies? Let more money aggregate at the academies so that parents can send their kids to those programs for free or cheap rather than having to subsidize their own kids development and pay for travel all over the country for totally unnecessary tournaments?

Maybe say, "the hell with MLS" and put some of that famous USSF surplus to work with 50 or 100 independent academies all over the country. Bury the travel clubs, build relationships with the high schools to improve their coaching, build on the existing framework of their conferences and seed the soil with consistent, high quality and reasonably-priced options for families.

It's got to be massive change at the grass roots level or we're just going to be spinning our wheels. New national team coaches or federation presidents don't mean dick if we don't change the way we grow players in this country.

[wco81]

I was listening to some public radio show talking about how little Iceland qualifies.

They've invested in training world-class coaches. Apparently several of them work in various European leagues and then help train the players.

Can't be that simple, can it?

[RobVarak]

I was listening to some public radio show talking about how little Iceland qualifies.

They've invested in training world-class coaches. Apparently several of them work in various European leagues and then help train the players.

Can't be that simple, can it?

A short film by Rog Bennett with a bit more on that story. Won't embed, unfortunately.

https://youtu.be/1M5_WBOCKXs

[Rodster]

As long as you have mid-level NBA talent making $15 million plus a year guaranteed, NFL and MLB players also making millions it'll be a tough sell to convince young athletes to choose soccer as their profession. What's the average salary for an MLS player or even worse a player in the NASL?

Isn't really all about "Show me the money"?

[RobVarak]

As long as you have mid-level NBA talent making $15 million plus a year guaranteed, NFL and MLB players also making millions it'll be a tough sell to convince young athletes to choose soccer as their profession. What's the average salary for an MLS player or even worse a player in the NASL?

Isn't really all about "Show me the money"?

To some extent, but the reality is that the two sports aren't competing for the same athletes right now so the discrepancy isn't much of a factor.

Baseball is the sport that's been most hurt by the NBA and NFL dominating the culture, but that's another thread.

[pk500]

As long as you have mid-level NBA talent making $15 million plus a year guaranteed, NFL and MLB players also making millions it'll be a tough sell to convince young athletes to choose soccer as their profession. What's the average salary for an MLS player or even worse a player in the NASL?

Isn't really all about "Show me the money"?

To some extent, but the reality is that the two sports aren't competing for the same athletes right now so the discrepancy isn't much of a factor.

Baseball is the sport that's been most hurt by the NBA and NFL dominating the culture, but that's another thread.

I'll argue that boxing also ranks high on the "most damaged" list. Many of the big guys who entered the sport in the 1960s and 1970s, when American heavyweights were among the most popular athletes on Earth, instead now are playing football and hoops.

For example, there are a bunch of NFL linebackers and NBA shooting guards and small forwards who probably could have and would have been fine heavyweights 40 or 50 years ago.

[RobVarak]

I expanded a bit on my rant, took out the saucier language and put it up on that hotbed of internet hot takes...Linkedin. Feel free to take a gander if you're curious.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/whats-ne ... rob-varak/

[10spro]

Very good chances between Liverpool and MCU, both goalies had brilliant saves but none better than the toe save by De Gea. Perhaps Liverpool deserved better and Lukaku should have been booked, period.

Man, MCI had beautiful goals today, that bomb from Fernandinho, the needle thread passes from De Bruyne, it was a concert of goals and Aguero didn’t even play.

[10spro]

Forza Azurri, I know the sinking feeling as I was watching Argentina til the very last game to try to make to Russia. It would be a damn shame if you can’t advance tonight.

They need a Paolo Rossi him?

Forza.

[10spro]

What a tragedy, what a damn shame. There’s no doubt in my mind that the implementation of VAR is a must. Countries like the States, tonight Italy would not have suffered as they did. The whole playoffs format needs a change as well, nothing against these countiries but when you have Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Iran making it to Russia, you can’t help but scratch your head.

Still, Italy tonight dominated and should have won. They had quality stars on the bench though that should have played right off the bat. Coach will be tortured probably, what a pity.

I feel for Gigi Buffon...

[RobVarak]

Comeuppance for generations of overly-defensive, dour, and going back even further, outright dirty football. Good riddance.

Sadly, Serbia will still be there to subject the rest of us to their nefarious ways.

[10spro]

Yes, I was tooth and nails watching Argentina try to qualify for Russia, and I’ll be equally excited watching the draw tomorrow. It’ll be Messi’s last chance to lift the WC and we’ll need ‘La Mano de Dios’ for a favorable outcome. Looking at the possibilities, the Albicelestes could cruise or fall in the group of death.

[10spro]

The draw is over, looking at all the groups I don’t think any of the top seeds should whine about their opponents. Perhaps Portugal have it tough in drawing Spain a nation no group wanted to be part of, Germany’s path is not as easy as years past although they will still advance. You can say that the Brazilians will have a walk in the park, in fact I think they can go all the way to the finals.

England should advance along Belgium, most groups are quite balanced, no real group of death per se, but rather difficult ones such as B and F.

Argentina should advance along Croatia, but based on the last couple of WC draws Nigeria keep giving them a good run for their money.

My favorites to win it all in Russia: Brazil, Spain, Germany, Argentina, France. In that order.