Going to make an interesting documentary some day

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Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by wco81 »

Seeing highlights of Tiger Woods struggling in his latest comeback.

Unless some miracle happens, he will never win another major. He may not ever win another PGA event. With every year that passes, it becomes more and more remote that he'll win again.

It's a stunning outcome considering the trajectory he was on to become not only the greatest golfer in history but one of the greatest athlete in terms of achievement.

Now the likely legacy is that he had this very promising start to a career and ended up one of the hundreds who won x number of majors and x number of tournaments.

You wonder if he ruined the natural swing by strength training -- muscle memory undone by lifting and whatever else he may have done to drive the hell out of the ball?

He's going to keep trying but they could make a very dramatic biopic or documentary about what could have been.

Oh and while they're at it. Probably do. A 30 for 30 on Lance Armstrong, about his smugness and entitlement. Bill Burr tells Bill Simmons that he didn't care that Armstrong doped, he was climbing mountains on bikes for weeks so what do people want?

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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by Rodster »

Wasn't he accused of taking PED's?

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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by DivotMaker »

wco81 wrote:Seeing highlights of Tiger Woods struggling in his latest comeback.

Unless some miracle happens, he will never win another major. He may not ever win another PGA event. With every year that passes, it becomes more and more remote that he'll win again.

It's a stunning outcome considering the trajectory he was on to become not only the greatest golfer in history but one of the greatest athlete in terms of achievement.

Now the likely legacy is that he had this very promising start to a career and ended up one of the hundreds who won x number of majors and x number of tournaments.

You wonder if he ruined the natural swing by strength training -- muscle memory undone by lifting and whatever else he may have done to drive the hell out of the ball?

He's going to keep trying but they could make a very dramatic biopic or documentary about what could have been.

Oh and while they're at it. Probably do. A 30 for 30 on Lance Armstrong, about his smugness and entitlement. Bill Burr tells Bill Simmons that he didn't care that Armstrong doped, he was climbing mountains on bikes for weeks so what do people want?
"Hundreds of others" who have won 14 Majors (2nd all time), 79 wins (2nd all time), 29 runner ups, 186 Top 10's, 249 Top 25's in 327 events played? Yeah, I see your point.....

If he stays healthy and he is still playing this poorly through the rest of this season, it will likely be time for him to think about hanging it up professionally.

And he was on a great trajectory, but how do we know how that would have turned out? The trajectory he was on was pretty unsustainable IMO. His destruction of his Family is probably the "thing" that threw him off the most. Second was his continued screwing with his swing and leaving Butch Harmon.

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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by Danimal »

Rodster wrote:Wasn't he accused of taking PED's?
Yeah but the PGA covers this up. Rumors are that a lot of guys take stuff. Hell I just play local competitions but I know a ton of guys who take Xanax before playing.
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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by Naples39 »

If you're really interested, try reading The Big Miss by Hank Haney. I read it a few years ago so I don't remember it super well, but there are some odd personality foibles in there and talk of military style SEAL training!? Aside from his personal marriage crisis (which came later), that stuff probably contributed to his knee injuries under Haney and cost him some major wins when he was otherwise playing at a very high level.
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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by dbdynsty25 »

Everyone always likes to blame his struggles these days on PEDs, or weight training, or whatever. I think dude just got old and his personal life fell apart.

At some point, playing that much golf, with that kind of focus just wears on you. His body broke down. Could he have used PEDs or screwed himself up getting too strong? Sure. But life just gets in the way sometimes and father time catches up to you, even in a non-impact sport like golf.

I still think his stretch of greatness was the most dominant 10 or so years in all of sports. For that we all should be thankful we got to witness it.

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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by DivotMaker »

dbdynsty25 wrote:Everyone always likes to blame his struggles these days on PEDs, or weight training, or whatever. I think dude just got old and his personal life fell apart.

At some point, playing that much golf, with that kind of focus just wears on you. His body broke down. Could he have used PEDs or screwed himself up getting too strong? Sure. But life just gets in the way sometimes and father time catches up to you, even in a non-impact sport like golf.

I still think his stretch of greatness was the most dominant 10 or so years in all of sports. For that we all should be thankful we got to witness it.
Well stated.....

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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by tjung0831 »

Tiger's biggest issue was his addiction to vast quantities of the Va-jay-jay! :lol:
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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by pk500 »

Tiger nearly destroyed his body with his infatuation with and commitment to SEAL training. Take 20 minutes to read this long, fascinating piece by the best sportswriter in America, Wright Thompson:

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/ ... oods-death
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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by fletcher21 »

For my money and all things considered, Ben Hogan is the best golfer of all time. Not only was he a ferocious competitor who gave it everything he had, he overcame a ton of obstacles. Tiger was brought up with a clear path to success from 3 years old til present day. He is by many accounts a pretty bad human being. In his prime, he dominated his sport like no other athlete has ever dominated theirs. Players were afraid of him, and that intimidation only helped him. At the end of the day, I'd take Ben Hogan over anyone who has ever teed it up. Dude oozed class and respect for the game of golf. Tiger taught how many thousands of kids to throw clubs and yell profanities after a bad shot. Plus, his personal life was a mess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic_84wijVWs

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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by DivotMaker »

fletcher21 wrote:For my money and all things considered, Ben Hogan is the best golfer of all time. Not only was he a ferocious competitor who gave it everything he had, he overcame a ton of obstacles. Tiger was brought up with a clear path to success from 3 years old til present day. He is by many accounts a pretty bad human being. In his prime, he dominated his sport like no other athlete has ever dominated theirs. Players were afraid of him, and that intimidation only helped him. At the end of the day, I'd take Ben Hogan over anyone who has ever teed it up. Dude oozed class and respect for the game of golf. Tiger taught how many thousands of kids to throw clubs and yell profanities after a bad shot. Plus, his personal life was a mess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic_84wijVWs
Great respect for Ben Hogan, but he was generally regarded as an asshole.

My Dad got to know Byron Nelson for about 20 years before Byron passed. Talk about a tremendous Golfer but one helluva person to boot. Don't know if his 11 straight PGA wins will ever be broken.

Can't disagree with all the disparaging remarks about Tiger. He was a fierce competitor but a terrible sport and it really tarnished him as a human being, his martial infidelities notwithstanding. It is good to see he has mellowed as he has aged, but I am afraid too many remember the frequent f-bombs and airborne irons than any acts of civility towards others. I am no fan of his behavior in the past, but I am a fan of what he accomplished on the Golf course and his charitable work must not be overlooked. Lastly, he changed the game of Golf forever.

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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by pk500 »

fletcher21 wrote:In his prime, he dominated his sport like no other athlete has ever dominated theirs.
False. Edwin Moses was unbeaten globally in the 400-meter hurdles from 1977-87. That includes the Olympics and World Championships.

Dude didn't lose a race in 10 YEARS. Moses won 107 consecutive finals and set the world record four times during that span.

Tiger never approached that dominance. Probably no one will.
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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by DivotMaker »

pk500 wrote:
fletcher21 wrote:In his prime, he dominated his sport like no other athlete has ever dominated theirs.
False. Edwin Moses was unbeaten globally in the 400-meter hurdles from 1977-87. That includes the Olympics and World Championships.

Dude didn't lose a race in 10 YEARS. Moses won 107 consecutive finals and set the world record four times during that span.

Tiger never approached that dominance. Probably no one will.
FACT.

I was part of a US T&F Team with him in 1979 that went to Taiwan to put on an exhibition at the Taiwanese Asian Games. Edwin Moses was a great human being, very humble but a FIERCE competitor. We had Renaldo Nehemiah (110 Hurdles WR holder), Earl Bell, Billy Olsen (Pole vault WR holders), etc, etc. on that Team. Also met and became good friends with Wilt Chamberlain on that trip and subsequent events.

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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by Diablo25 »

I still think Tiger has some good golf and wins left. Major(s)? Who knows. Is he the Tiger of old...no, but I do feel he can still play. At the event back in December he showed he can still play at a high level. Both recent events he has played in he hasn't had any setbacks physically. I'm not making any judgement on him until he has several tourneys in the rear view. We must give the guy some time to get back in the flow after not playing for 15+ months. He is playing in 4 of the next 5 weeks. That should provide a decent snapshot of what is to come. I will say this, the PGA of 2017 is not the PGA of 5 years ago. There a GREAT players everywhere and emerging young players like Thomas. Oddly enough, Tiger is to 'blame' for those guys. They grew up watching the PGA Tour that Tiger created. I am not convinced Tiger is done.
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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by wco81 »

pk500 wrote:Tiger nearly destroyed his body with his infatuation with and commitment to SEAL training. Take 20 minutes to read this long, fascinating piece by the best sportswriter in America, Wright Thompson:

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/ ... oods-death

Interesting story, thanks for the link.

Sounds like he's been trying to fill a void since his father passed and was ready to check out of golf 10 years ago.

So why is he trying to get back now? Would adding to his win totals, especially majors, help fill that void?

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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by pk500 »

wco81 wrote:
pk500 wrote:Tiger nearly destroyed his body with his infatuation with and commitment to SEAL training. Take 20 minutes to read this long, fascinating piece by the best sportswriter in America, Wright Thompson:

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/ ... oods-death

Interesting story, thanks for the link.

Sounds like he's been trying to fill a void since his father passed and was ready to check out of golf 10 years ago.

So why is he trying to get back now? Would adding to his win totals, especially majors, help fill that void?
I think Eldrick needs golf as an anchor these days. His father is gone. His marriage is gone. His girlfriend Lindsay Vonn is gone. His Nike deal is gone. He's still largely a pariah, at worse, or just a self-centered scumbag, at least, on the course of public opinion.

Golf may be all the dude has left. Plus nobody with an ego as large as his can just turn that off. He probably still craves the attention and adulation he received in his pomp.
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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by Diablo25 »

To be clear, his Nike deal isn't dead. They still are in the apparel/shoe industry so he still has that. The fact that Nike pulled out of the equipment industry may have helped him (financially) actually. He just signed a deal with Taylormade and he still has the Nike deal.
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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by pk500 »

Diablo25 wrote:To be clear, his Nike deal isn't dead. They still are in the apparel/shoe industry so he still has that. The fact that Nike pulled out of the equipment industry may have helped him (financially) actually. He just signed a deal with Taylormade and he still has the Nike deal.
10-4. Thanks for clarification. I wondered why he was still wearing the Nike hat last weekend with the TW logo.
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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

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wco81 wrote:
Oh and while they're at it. Probably do. A 30 for 30 on Lance Armstrong, about his smugness and entitlement. Bill Burr tells Bill Simmons that he didn't care that Armstrong doped, he was climbing mountains on bikes for weeks so what do people want?

So guess what 30 for 30 is going to do on Sunday?

LANCE Part 1, 2 hours.

Part 2 is the following Sunday.

With the huge success of The Last Dance, they're rushing their docs in the pipeline forward, though it looks like next month, NBA will try to resume the season and NFL is determined to have its regular schedule.

I was going through the programming guide and apparently there's an older doc on Lemond as well.

Tiger doc would be huge but he hasn't retired so that's going to be awhile. Maybe for the next pandemic.

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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

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wco81 wrote:
wco81 wrote:
Oh and while they're at it. Probably do. A 30 for 30 on Lance Armstrong, about his smugness and entitlement. Bill Burr tells Bill Simmons that he didn't care that Armstrong doped, he was climbing mountains on bikes for weeks so what do people want?

So guess what 30 for 30 is going to do on Sunday?

LANCE Part 1, 2 hours.

Part 2 is the following Sunday.

With the huge success of The Last Dance, they're rushing their docs in the pipeline forward, though it looks like next month, NBA will try to resume the season and NFL is determined to have its regular schedule.

I was going through the programming guide and apparently there's an older doc on Lemond as well.

Tiger doc would be huge but he hasn't retired so that's going to be awhile. Maybe for the next pandemic.
I highly recommend Icarus which goes into doping in Cycling! Probably be better than the 30 for 30 on Armstrong.
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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by pk500 »

"The Last Dance" was very good, if too much of a hagiography of Jordan. But there's no way he would have participated if a truly balanced story was told.

Hopefully ESPN won't be as charitable with Armstrong, who is one of the larger POS in the global sports pantheon in the last 50 years.
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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by Rodster »

Can't say if Greg Lemond was squeaky clean but he was my favorite cyclist in the 80's. It was either Lemond or Armstrong, I forget which but when the tour was over he used to scarf down on some serious Taco Bell.

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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

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Rodster wrote:Can't say if Greg Lemond was squeaky clean but he was my favorite cyclist in the 80's. It was either Lemond or Armstrong, I forget which but when the tour was over he used to scarf down on some serious Taco Bell.
LeMond was clean. He was one of the first to call out Armstrong for being dirty -- along with former Tour cyclist turned journalist Paul Kimmage -- during the height of Armstrong's reign of drug-addled terror in the European peloton.

Armstrong responded by besmirching LeMond's name in Euro cycling circles, which ended up ruining LeMond's bicycle company and costing him a lot of money.

LeMond gained advantages by being naturally gifted and also one of the first cyclists to take advantage of new technology in the 80s, such as aero bars, aero helmets, disc wheels, clipless pedals, etc. LeMond used all of that stuff when he overtook Fignon on that dramatic final day to win the Tour in the 80s. Fignon used none of it, and it showed.

Armstrong also had incredible natural gifts. But he piled on in a zero sum game of domination through drugs, politics and intimidation.

Full respect for Armstrong as a cancer survivor. Otherwise, he is a MASSIVE, deceitful piece of narcissistic sh*t.

I won't watch this doc because I don't want to see a second of Armstrong's attempt to rationalize his abhorrent behavior or any ESPN attempt to sportswash his filthy legacy into some sort of flawed, tragic American hero. He is not.
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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

Post by wco81 »

Showed an excerpt from the doc on SportsCenter.

Sounds like Lance will say that the competition was taking EPO first, so he had no choice but to go along.

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Re: Going to make an interesting documentary some day

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Part 1 - intercuts present day, mostly interviews, with a narrative of his entire career, starting in high school, where he first made his mark as a swimmer, which led to triathlons and eventually cycling.

A couple of the early interviewees kind of warns the filmmaker that Lance is going to try to "shape" the documentary to his purposes.

Armstrong wins the world tour of cycling fairly early in his career, at age 21-22, in only his first or second year. But then finds himself falling behind the very next year as doping becomes prevalent.

The way he depicts the decision to dope, there wasn't very much agonizing, if he wanted to keep competing, he had no other choice.

Says he took EPO only for the '96 season and then came his testicular cancer diagnosis. Surgeries, including to remove cancer which had metastasized to his brain and chemotherapy put him out for a year. His first season back, barely got a sponsorship and didn't have any ambitions about the Tour de France.

Then in '98, the doping scandal in the Tour de France.

The '99 Tour was to be a new beginning for the Tour and for him on his comeback story.

After the scandal of the '98 Tour, they changed the race, so that racers wouldn't be motivated to cheat. It was suppose to result in a slower race. Instead, it was the fastest Tour in history, won by Armstrong. His own agent suggested he take it easy on the final time trial with the yellow jersey because he was going to win it either way. Instead he went for it, resulting in the record time.

As one journalist says, it's the most grueling event in the world and a racer who takes off a year for surgery and chemotherapy sets the world record? But everyone involved in the sport, including those who covered it, played up this story about beating cancer and beating the Tour. It made the sport explode, that is brought in a lot of money, so the UCI governing body heads looked the other way. After '98, they could not have another scandal again the very next year.

So in the history segment, they build up this image of this hyper competitive individual, who was cocky even as a kid. But it may be far more simpler than that. In his early 20s, he had a house to himself on Lake Como, a place where millionaires and billionaires have villas. Meanwhile his 4 teammates crammed into a 3-bedroom apt. They trained in Italy and then did all the competitions throughout Europe. By age 24, he was designing a custom home, spending almost a million dollars for a lakefront pad.

In other words, the sports was lucrative to him since high school -- he traveled outside the country most of the year starting at age 17. He made great money even before he won his first Tour, before Americans knew about the Tour. But when he won it in '99 and kept winning them, he says he was at a superstar level, like Michael Phelps or Lebron James.

He wasn't walking away from that in his late 20s or 30s. He says that most of the riders weren't scared to take EPO, alludes to taking the right amount and that it wasn't detectable. So pretty easy decision.

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