R.I.P. those affected by the school shooting in CT

[Pete1210]

The focus, honestly, needs to be on mental illness and what to do to help these parents who are dealing with with Asbergers kids and the like. And on the families of those beautiful little kiddos and teachers who will be having a difficulty I can't even imagine for a long time to come. May God bless them and be with them in an extremely close way this Christmas.

I usually have very little use for the Huffington Post, but this article is very good, and shines a light where the light needs to be shined:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 11009.html

Good article. Unfortunately, its been too easy to cut funding for mental health and social welfare programs in this economy.

[Teal]

I would agree that a trained armed security person would be a good thing. I'm guessing they will have to do away with any glass for entryways, unless they move to bulletproof glass. It perhaps would be enough of a deterrant. Who knows. Ridiculous it even has to come to this.

And unfortunately it would just make these nuts go elsewhere to do their evil deeds.

Away from daycare centers and kindergartens??? Good.

[Naples39]

I have purposely restrained myself from opining about this, but I think the reality is that there are no easy fixes to this problem. There's really very little you can do against a determined mad man.

My humble, largely uninformed opinion...

In my opinion a hasty gun control bill may have some marginal effect, and is probably worth doing, but it's primarily a release of pent-up frustrations from the same people who have always been anti-gun. It will hardly put a meaningful end to the problem.

Also, arming teachers seems utterly insane to me; I would expect that having more guns around will cause far more accidents/incidents than it would actually prevent. Even if teachers are properly trained, they will never be a one-man SWAT takedown team. And while these incidents appear to be widespread, the reality is that even if one happened every 6 months that is statistically tiny, while having a gun in many classrooms increases the potential for lethal violence in massively more places.

If we really want to avoid these nightmares IMO, it's needs to be an expensive, multi-pronged solution that meaningful infringes upon the lives of many, many americans. We probably need to increase security and lockdown schools. Hugely expensive, inconvenient, distasteful, and hardly unbreachable against someone smart and determined against Paul Blart mall cops. Gun control laws would probably have to be strict and draconian. This will harm the rights of million law-abiding americans and will face constitutional questions. Third, we probably need to reconsider mental health. Another huge expense for tax-payers for a government already spending deep into the red. And we'd probably have to reconsider the laws which only allow for involuntary detention of a person determined to be an imminent danger to himself or others, as obviously it's way too easy for potential murderers to slip through the cracks in this arrangement. Are we willing to spend this money and restrict freedoms like this? Doubtful.

Most likely, we will have some new gun laws and we'll start seeing armed security officers at schools. We'll feel better, but bandaids on a broken leg.

[Teal]

Giving away liberty for a little security...

[Jackdog]

Incredible bravery. Brings tears to my eyes.

Dawn Hochsprung, the Sandy Hook Elementary School principal and a teacher were ultimately slaughtered when they attempted to stop gunman Adam Lanza from killing school children and faculty on Friday morning in Newtown, Connecticut.
Hochsprung's husband, George, told CNN: "There were gunshots. Somebody shot the window. Somebody came in, into the -- not into the office, but into the building, the foyer of the building. And Dawn told us to go hide," George said the teachers told him.
Hochsprung "and at least one other teacher went out and actually tried to subdue the killer. I don't know where that comes from. Dawn was 5'2," he continued, sitting surrounded by his three daughters from a previous marriage and one of Dawn's two daughters from her previous marriage.
"Dawn put herself in jeopardy. And I have been angry about that. Angry. Until just now, when I met two women that she told to go under shelter while she actually confronted the gunman," George recounted.
"She could have avoided that. And she didn't. I knew she wouldn't. So, I'm not angry anymore. I'm not angry. I'm not angry at anyone. I'm not angry," he repeated as if hoping she would hear him, adding in a small voice, "I'm just very sad."
George said he never expected to outlive his wife, who was much younger than he was.

[JOZ]

I would agree that a trained armed security person would be a good thing. I'm guessing they will have to do away with any glass for entryways, unless they move to bulletproof glass. It perhaps would be enough of a deterrant. Who knows. Ridiculous it even has to come to this.

And unfortunately it would just make these nuts go elsewhere to do their evil deeds.

Away from daycare centers and kindergartens??? Good.

Completely agree. Just meaning they will move on.

[Teal]

I would agree that a trained armed security person would be a good thing. I'm guessing they will have to do away with any glass for entryways, unless they move to bulletproof glass. It perhaps would be enough of a deterrant. Who knows. Ridiculous it even has to come to this.

And unfortunately it would just make these nuts go elsewhere to do their evil deeds.

Away from daycare centers and kindergartens??? Good.

Completely agree. Just meaning they will move on.

I know. Nothing implied.

[Brando70]

Incredible bravery. Brings tears to my eyes.

Dawn Hochsprung, the Sandy Hook Elementary School principal and a teacher were ultimately slaughtered when they attempted to stop gunman Adam Lanza from killing school children and faculty on Friday morning in Newtown, Connecticut.
Hochsprung's husband, George, told CNN: "There were gunshots. Somebody shot the window. Somebody came in, into the -- not into the office, but into the building, the foyer of the building. And Dawn told us to go hide," George said the teachers told him.
Hochsprung "and at least one other teacher went out and actually tried to subdue the killer. I don't know where that comes from. Dawn was 5'2," he continued, sitting surrounded by his three daughters from a previous marriage and one of Dawn's two daughters from her previous marriage.
"Dawn put herself in jeopardy. And I have been angry about that. Angry. Until just now, when I met two women that she told to go under shelter while she actually confronted the gunman," George recounted.
"She could have avoided that. And she didn't. I knew she wouldn't. So, I'm not angry anymore. I'm not angry. I'm not angry at anyone. I'm not angry," he repeated as if hoping she would hear him, adding in a small voice, "I'm just very sad."
George said he never expected to outlive his wife, who was much younger than he was.

It was an incredible act of self-sacrifice, along with the school psychologist who also tried to stop him and the teachers who tried to shield the children when the killer came to the classrooms.

[Jackdog]

Incredible bravery. Brings tears to my eyes.

Dawn Hochsprung, the Sandy Hook Elementary School principal and a teacher were ultimately slaughtered when they attempted to stop gunman Adam Lanza from killing school children and faculty on Friday morning in Newtown, Connecticut.
Hochsprung's husband, George, told CNN: "There were gunshots. Somebody shot the window. Somebody came in, into the -- not into the office, but into the building, the foyer of the building. And Dawn told us to go hide," George said the teachers told him.
Hochsprung "and at least one other teacher went out and actually tried to subdue the killer. I don't know where that comes from. Dawn was 5'2," he continued, sitting surrounded by his three daughters from a previous marriage and one of Dawn's two daughters from her previous marriage.
"Dawn put herself in jeopardy. And I have been angry about that. Angry. Until just now, when I met two women that she told to go under shelter while she actually confronted the gunman," George recounted.
"She could have avoided that. And she didn't. I knew she wouldn't. So, I'm not angry anymore. I'm not angry. I'm not angry at anyone. I'm not angry," he repeated as if hoping she would hear him, adding in a small voice, "I'm just very sad."
George said he never expected to outlive his wife, who was much younger than he was.

It was an incredible act of self-sacrifice, along with the school psychologist who also tried to stop him and the teachers who tried to shield the children when the killer came to the classrooms.

Yes it was. I wish they had something other than their bodies to try stopping the sick bastard. The soldier in me wants armed guards at every school. I don't think the culture of violence is going to go away. Thank God this theater had a trained officer on duty yesterday. http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/mainhea ... e=10644119

[Teal]

Thank God for this Conceal Carrying man at the mall, too:
http://www.infowars.com/report-armed-ma ... -shooting/

[pigpen81]

Incredible bravery. Brings tears to my eyes.

Dawn Hochsprung, the Sandy Hook Elementary School principal and a teacher were ultimately slaughtered when they attempted to stop gunman Adam Lanza from killing school children and faculty on Friday morning in Newtown, Connecticut.
Hochsprung's husband, George, told CNN: "There were gunshots. Somebody shot the window. Somebody came in, into the -- not into the office, but into the building, the foyer of the building. And Dawn told us to go hide," George said the teachers told him.
Hochsprung "and at least one other teacher went out and actually tried to subdue the killer. I don't know where that comes from. Dawn was 5'2," he continued, sitting surrounded by his three daughters from a previous marriage and one of Dawn's two daughters from her previous marriage.
"Dawn put herself in jeopardy. And I have been angry about that. Angry. Until just now, when I met two women that she told to go under shelter while she actually confronted the gunman," George recounted.
"She could have avoided that. And she didn't. I knew she wouldn't. So, I'm not angry anymore. I'm not angry. I'm not angry at anyone. I'm not angry," he repeated as if hoping she would hear him, adding in a small voice, "I'm just very sad."
George said he never expected to outlive his wife, who was much younger than he was.

She deserves the highest civilian honor our country can give her.

[kevinpars]

I agree with Teal, mental health is the big issue. We had a friend who's husband developed some really bad mental issues and there was nothing she could do to get him to get help. He never got violent but it was touch and go for a while.

Not sure gun control would solve anything at this point. And while I think gun education is a good thing - I remember getting a lot out of the hunters safety course I had to take when I was young - it would not have helped in this case.

[FifaInspected]

I sat in my sons class today for a project and couldn't help but wonder what that kind of fear feels like. It was chilling just imaging the scenario. There are almost no options to get out of the room besides trying to slip through a window.


Considering everything that has been mentioned in this thread the simple fact remains.... if someone get's into a school that does not have onsite security i'm guessing there's a minimim of 5 minutes before police arrive. In that short window of time one could take a lot of lives with a revolver or .22 pistol and a pocket full of ammo. No need for an assault rifle or high capacity magazines.

Of course, I have this horrible feeling in my gut that while a nation mourns, there's a number of sick bastards who think they could do better, kill more and make a bigger headline.

[Jackdog]

I sat in my sons class today for a project and couldn't help but wonder what that kind of fear feels like. It was chilling just imaging the scenario. There are almost no options to get out of the room besides trying to slip through a window.


Considering everything that has been mentioned in this thread the simple fact remains.... if someone get's into a school that does not have onsite security i'm guessing there's a minimim of 5 minutes before police arrive. In that short window of time one could take a lot of lives with a revolver or .22 pistol and a pocket full of ammo. No need for an assault rifle or high capacity magazines.

Of course, I have this horrible feeling in my gut that while a nation mourns, there's a number of sick bastards who think they could do better, kill more and make a bigger headline.

Principal Greg Lund echoed your sentiments. I applaud him and his superintendent.
http://www.startribune.com/local/184205071.html

[sportdan30]

I went to my son's holiday concert last night and had the same feeling Fifa. Kinda felt like a sitting duck which of course I didn't comment to anyone about.

I read there's a company that makes bullet proof back packs for students. I know that is not full proof protection of course and the kids have to have access to them, but I could see drills being implemented to cover one's body similar to how we use to practice tornado drills.

I like the idea of teachers carrying concealed guns, albeit not every teacher would feel comfortable with that. I wouldn't expect them to either. But, even if you have a couple teachers at each school with a gun, it might make these nut jobs think twice about entering a school.

[Feanor]

I sat in my sons class today for a project and couldn't help but wonder what that kind of fear feels like. It was chilling just imaging the scenario. There are almost no options to get out of the room besides trying to slip through a window.


Considering everything that has been mentioned in this thread the simple fact remains.... if someone get's into a school that does not have onsite security i'm guessing there's a minimim of 5 minutes before police arrive. In that short window of time one could take a lot of lives with a revolver or .22 pistol and a pocket full of ammo. No need for an assault rifle or high capacity magazines.

You say no need and yet it's plainly obvious why Adam Lanza brought this with him into the school. Of the many guns he had to choose from, it was the best weapon for slaughtering the maximum amount of people as efficiently as possible. The high capacity clips allowed him to riddle the children with bullets, ensuring they had no chance to survive.

[Jackdog]

I sat in my sons class today for a project and couldn't help but wonder what that kind of fear feels like. It was chilling just imaging the scenario. There are almost no options to get out of the room besides trying to slip through a window.


Considering everything that has been mentioned in this thread the simple fact remains.... if someone get's into a school that does not have onsite security i'm guessing there's a minimim of 5 minutes before police arrive. In that short window of time one could take a lot of lives with a revolver or .22 pistol and a pocket full of ammo. No need for an assault rifle or high capacity magazines.

You say no need and yet it's plainly obvious why Adam Lanza brought this with him into the school. Of the many guns he had to choose from, it was the best weapon for slaughtering the maximum amount of people as efficiently as possible. The high capacity clips allowed him to riddle the children with bullets, ensuring they had no chance to survive.

A 22-caliber Walther semi-automatic pistol and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 was used by Cho Seung-Hui in the Virginia Tech massacre that killed 32 and wounded 17. I understand your upset. We all are. The point of FifaInspected's comment is any firearm can be used to kill a lot of people if they are not challenged by anyone.

[FifaInspected]

Thanks Jackdog. That is the angle my comment was coming from.

[Teal]

He brought that gun because it was the scariest-looking. When a bullet is screaming toward you, you don't breathe a sigh of relief because it's a .22 and not a .223. One kills just as efficiently as the other.

And clips or no clips, it's no reason to take action against law-abiders. Besides, they can ban all they want; there are so many out there now, that law-breakers won't have any problem getting their hands on them. And will still use whatever means necessary. Jack's right...a much less 'menacing looking' weapon did more damage at Va Tech.

[bdunn13]

He was using a high capacity magazine which has a high failure rate - and it failed in this instance..... the lower capacity magazines have a much much lower failure rate and you can unload, reload fast...

In this case, the high capacity magazine likely saved lives since it disabled the gun.

[Teal]

He was using a high capacity magazine which has a high failure rate - and it failed in this instance..... the lower capacity magazines have a much much lower failure rate and you can unload, reload fast...

In this case, the high capacity magazine likely saved lives since it disabled the gun.

+1

[RobVarak]

I'm kind of surprised, although maybe I shouldn't be, at the lack of any change in the gun control debates post Heller v. D.C.

Both sides of the argument seem so wed to talking points made over the previous decade that they are unable to recognize the new legal reality: The Supreme Court has recognized a clear individual right to bear arms. There will be no outright Federal ban on gun ownership.

So for all the pro-gun people out there suggesting that re-instituting the "assault weapons" ban or passing more restrictive measures on what guns are legal is some sort of slippery slope are either ignorant or demagogues. I'm fully aware of the stupidity of the way the 90's ban was drawn and the unintended consequences of the law. But I'm also aware of the fact that any argument which begins with the premise that a previous law failed is nothing more than stupid. A new law can be better. It may or may not end up that way, but it can be.

By the same token, I don't think anybody on the anti-gun side does themselves any favors by prattling on about the evils of guns or "problems" with the Second Amendment. Idiotic references to Europe which ignore the cultural, demographic and geographic differences, thinly-veiled regional or socio-economic arrogance etc. that ignore the legal reality serve only to unnecessarily heat up the rhetoric. Just say you don't like guns and wish that you lived in a country where they were illegal! But also, please recognize that you do not live in such a place and that the United States will never be that place.

I wouldn't even point this out if it were just citizens screwing this up, but I'm seeing legislators make the same flawed arguments on both sides. That's disheartening, although as I said at the top, probably shouldn't be surprising.

Edit post-NRA "press conference"--

It certainly doesn't help the national dialogue when one of the principals is clearly mentally challenged enough to be on one of the national registry he is proposing.

[wco81]

Armed guards at schools, which are awash in money these days.

[wco81]

Just say you don't like guns and wish that you lived in a country where they were illegal! But also, please recognize that you do not live in such a place and that the United States will never be that place.

Apparently gun sales have been on the decline. In a different time, fathers may have taught sons to hunt but gun sales for that activity has been dropping, as kids take on to other types of past times. Twenty years ago, the sporting good ads used to feature rifles and even BB guns for kids.

The gun culture won't disappear but as more people migrate to metro areas fewer young people are taking up hunting. That's also said to be true of things like cars. Not only are teen males not spending a lot of time learning to fix and tune up (hot rodding) their cars, they're not buying cars at the rate the older generations did as teens.

Electronic toys seem to be diverting more and more of the attention which might have gone to these older pursuits.

[dbdynsty25]

That's also said to be true of things like cars. Not only are teen males not spending a lot of time learning to fix and tune up (hot rodding) their cars, they're not buying cars at the rate the older generations did as teens.

Well that's obviously because cars are WAY more difficult to fix yourself these days, so that's a bad example. Oh yeah, and no one makes hot rods anymore...they are coming back now, but went away for like ten years.