Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by dbdynsty25 »

Danimal wrote:dumb question but what does a firestick allow me to do that built in apps on the Samsung don't?
Allows you to not have to the horrific menu system that is built into your tv and it's also significantly faster. Also probably does a better job of upscaling content. The Samsung interface is also crap and slow (I've got three samsungs, hate the smartapp system in all of them).

I've got a Firestick 4K on all of my TVs as they just make the best streaming stick currently.

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by pk500 »

Danimal wrote:dumb question but what does a firestick allow me to do that built in apps on the Samsung don't?
Probably not much. It's an upgrade for me because the onboard Vizio Smartcast software is very slow and cumbersome. Vizio also has sh*tty upscaling software, so the FireStick TV 4K upscales 720p and 1080p content better.

Samsung has very good upscaling. From my research, only Sony has better onboard upscaling. So if your Samsung built-in apps are snappy, you're probably not going to see that much benefit from a FireStick.

Vizio has to cut corners somewhere to sell its TVs so cheaply. Software clearly is one of those trimmed edges. I would prefer that than compromising the screen quality. My Vizio M558-G1 looks superb, with no vertical banding or terrible dirty screen effect.

The FireStick 4K is $24.99 for Prime members right now. An absolute steal. It upscales better than the $180 Apple TV, with a MUCH better remote that includes Alexa voice search and commands. My parents have a Roku Streaming Stick+, which costs $59. Its upscaling is no better than the FireStick, and its remote is a bit more primitive, with no personal assistant search.

I'm quite happy with the FireStick 4K, like DB. Props to DB for his advice to find the best upscaling streamer for me.
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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by wco81 »

dbdynsty25 wrote:
Danimal wrote:dumb question but what does a firestick allow me to do that built in apps on the Samsung don't?
Allows you to not have to the horrific menu system that is built into your tv and it's also significantly faster. Also probably does a better job of upscaling content. The Samsung interface is also crap and slow (I've got three samsungs, hate the smartapp system in all of them).

I've got a Firestick 4K on all of my TVs as they just make the best streaming stick currently.

You get to choose whether you want to be spied on by the TV manufacturer or Amazon.

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by pk500 »

Think I found perhaps a crippling flaw with YouTube TV on the Amazon Fire TV Stick 4K: Momentary judder after fast-forwarding.

I never watch football live, since it's the ultimate DVR sport. Why spend 3.5 hours watching a game when you can watch every play from snap to whistle in 45 minutes by fast-forwarding? You learn quickly that NFL broadcast booth analysis is inane and superfluous. :)

Anyways, the video seems to skip frames for about two seconds every time I return to play after fast-forwarding 30 seconds between a tackle and a snap while watching football with the Amazon Fire TV Stick 4K. It's distracting and annoying as hell.

I did some testing last night. This only happens with the YouTube TV app on the Fire TV Stick 4K. It doesn't happen while casting with the built-in Chromecast on my TV, with the Vizio Smartcast software or with the YouTube TV app on my OG Xbox One.

YouTube TV just came to the Fire TV Stick 4K less than a month ago, so I'm guessing the app is pretty raw. Hopefully others are noticing and this can be fixed with firmware updates. But there's no way I can tolerate this for the rest of the season, so I'm going to give a Roku Streaming Stick + a go.

A shame, as I don't mind the Fire TV Stick 4K interface, the remote is excellent, and the upscaling is very solid.
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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by pk500 »

Well, my streamer journey landed in Roku Land last night. So far, so good.

Returned my Amazon Fire TV 4K Stick last night because of the bad stuttering issue when returning to play after fast-forward or rewind on YouTube TV. Got a Roku Streaming Stick + and am pleased. I like the Roku interface a lot more, there are a TON more channels available, there are no stutters and -- surprisingly -- the upscaling from 720p and 1080p looks better than the Fire Stick, Chromecast or Apple TV, all of which I've tried.
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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by wco81 »

Nvidia released the new Shield TV and Shield Pro.

Not much faster than the previous Shield but they're touting AI upscaling, which they say produces better results.

Pricey though, at or more than Apple TV 4K.

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by pk500 »

wco81 wrote:Nvidia released the new Shield TV and Shield Pro.

Not much faster than the previous Shield but they're touting AI upscaling, which they say produces better results.

Pricey though, at or more than Apple TV 4K.
Bought a Shield TV last night for $150, $20 less than Apple TV 4K. Will install later today or tonight. Eager for results, as I'm not totally satisfied with my tests of Fire TV Stick 4K, Roku Streaming Stick + or Apple TV. Quibbles:

Fire TV Stick 4K: The closest to perfection, but YouTube TV has a nasty glitch on the Fire Stick in which the video stutters ever so slightly every five seconds or so. I'm not the only one who has noticed it, according to Reddit and other forums. Plus the endless pimping of Amazon shows, while understandable, is grating. Very good upscaling and remote, though.

Roku Streaming Stick +: Interface isn't as snappy as Apple TV or Fire TV Stick 4K. No Dolby Vision support, which is a biggie for me because my set supports it and 4K with it does look better. Plus the Streaming Stick + takes longer than the other two to resolve its highest-res picture possible. Oldest chip and technology of the bunch, and it shows. Good upscaling, but not great. Remote can't control my soundbar.

Apple TV 4K: Overpriced. Overrated upscaling, not as good as Fire TV Stick 4K and about equal to Roku. HORRIBLE remote, beyond fiddly. Only worth it if you're completely baked into Apple TV + and the iTunes ecosystem. Not worth it even if you have an iPhone and MacBook like me.

We'll see where the Shield TV falls into this spectrum. I hope the top, as I'm getting a bit weary of all this testing due to my anal "value for money" tendencies! :)
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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by dbdynsty25 »

wco81 wrote:Nvidia released the new Shield TV and Shield Pro.

Not much faster than the previous Shield but they're touting AI upscaling, which they say produces better results.

Pricey though, at or more than Apple TV 4K.
It does significantly more. So, the price is justified if you're comparing it to the Apple TV. Now if you're only a streamer, then sure, both the AppleTV and the Shield are both too expensive (cough, PK), but if you're after the best picture quality and every frame matters, then you have to pay for that.

My Shield Pro arrives today. Let the hacking commence!

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by wco81 »

Some initial criticisms are that they're using one of their older chips still and that they didn't do HDMI 2.1 or a faster version of Wifi.

But if they're iterating every couple of years, maybe that's to be expected.

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by pk500 »

wco81 wrote:Some initial criticisms are that they're using one of their older chips still and that they didn't do HDMI 2.1 or a faster version of Wifi.

But if they're iterating every couple of years, maybe that's to be expected.
That "older chip" still destroys the specs of every other streamer on the market except for perhaps Apple TV. Doubtful you'll lack processing horsepower with a Shield. The "AI upscaling" feature, which I'm very eager to use, is possible only because of the new Shield's processor.
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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by dbdynsty25 »

Got my Shield Pro today and got it all hooked up and everything installed. Couldn’t be happier with the update. Faster response times, faster downloading, more audio support (finally, 5.1 surround on my Sonos Beam w/ surrounds) and a much improved remote (tho I use my Harmony). Everything installed so quick and it’s much more responsive.

Only downside I’ve found so far is that BR Live (for Champions League Soccer) hasn’t been updated to run on it? WTF? It works on my old Shield w/ the same software version, so not sure what’s up with that. Hopefully that’s updated soon as the BR Live subscription is absolutely necessary if you’re a fan of soccer.

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by wco81 »

pk500 wrote:
wco81 wrote:Some initial criticisms are that they're using one of their older chips still and that they didn't do HDMI 2.1 or a faster version of Wifi.

But if they're iterating every couple of years, maybe that's to be expected.
That "older chip" still destroys the specs of every other streamer on the market except for perhaps Apple TV. Doubtful you'll lack processing horsepower with a Shield. The "AI upscaling" feature, which I'm very eager to use, is possible only because of the new Shield's processor.
Sure, but if they're priced 3 or 4 times most other streaming devices, it should be newer.

In any event AI upscaling only limited to 30 FPS sources. For 60 FPS sources, it reverts to "advanced" scaling according to AVS.

More power is generally better, just like bigger screens is. For 3-4x the price of other streaming products, you want more future proofing.

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by MizzouRah »

I decided to play NHL 20 tonight on a different mode instead of game mode. The game looks fine on game mode but the color really pops on a different mode with all the processing enhancements enabled.

I really didn't notice much of a lag difference, maybe a tad but nothing that took away from the game.

For those of you with a 4k TV, do you always use game mode? I'm going to fire up Madden 20 later on a different mode as some games in certain stadiums look too dark for my liking.

Might not be the best for games like MW, but the picture was definitely better without it being on game mode.
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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by pk500 »

Always use Game Mode here with my Vizio M558-G1.
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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by Rodster »

With all of the BF deals happening is there a 4K set out there that's a must buy? I've been eyeing the Samsung's, TCL's. Best Buy Sony has a 55" 4K for $499 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-55-cl ... Id=6326668

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by pk500 »

Rodster wrote:With all of the BF deals happening is there a 4K set out there that's a must buy? I've been eyeing the Samsung's, TCL's. Best Buy Sony has a 55" 4K for $499 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-55-cl ... Id=6326668
Depends on your needs and budget. I wouldn't buy a 4K set without local dimming zones, and a lot of the super-cheap 4K sets on sale on Black Friday lack those.
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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by Rodster »

pk500 wrote:Depends on your needs and budget. I wouldn't buy a 4K set without local dimming zones, and a lot of the super-cheap 4K sets on sale on Black Friday lack those.
How can you tell if a set has it? What does local dimming zones do? Is it a notable difference? My needs are strictly for gaming.

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by pk500 »

Rodster wrote:
pk500 wrote:Depends on your needs and budget. I wouldn't buy a 4K set without local dimming zones, and a lot of the super-cheap 4K sets on sale on Black Friday lack those.
How can you tell if a set has it? What does local dimming zones do? Is it a notable difference? My needs are strictly for gaming.
Any set with local dimming will advertise that feature. The more zones, the better.

Local dimming makes your 4K HDR content look better. A lot better. Screens without local dimming have consistent light across the entire panel. Local dimming allows your panel to have zones of brightness to adjust to the image on the screen. Take a screen with a bright light on a dark background, for example. The zones in which the bright image appear will be blasted with light, while the zones containing the dark background will stay dark.

Sets with local dimming have brighter brights and darker blacks. Makes a noticeable difference -- at least to me -- with 4K HDR and Dolby Vision content and, to a lesser extent, with 720 and 1080 content.

Coming to 4K from a 720p plasma, local dimming was essential for me. Plasmas spoiled me on rich blacks, and only the most expensive OLED sets can match the blacks of a plasma. My 4K Vizio QLED does a pretty good job at getting close, and its colors are rich as hell with lovely 4K performance.
Last edited by pk500 on Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by Rodster »

OK, thanks for the detailed info. It sounds like local dimming zones is a must for me as well.

Does the Sony X800G have LDZ? I don't see it listed. Here's the product info:

4K HDR, - HDR10 & HLG for advanced detail and clarity
Upscale to a more natural picture with 4K X-Reality PRO
Content appears with lifelike motion with Motion flow XR technology
Scenes appear more realistic with Dynamic Contrast Enhancer

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by pk500 »

Rodster wrote:OK, thanks for the detailed info. It sounds like local dimming zones is a must for me as well.

Does the Sony X800G have LDZ? I don't see it listed. Here's the product info:

4K HDR, - HDR10 & HLG for advanced detail and clarity
Upscale to a more natural picture with 4K X-Reality PRO
Content appears with lifelike motion with Motion flow XR technology
Scenes appear more realistic with Dynamic Contrast Enhancer
No local dimming on that set. But Sony TV's generally have the best built-in upscalers, which is nice if you watch a lot of non-4K content.

I use the new Nvidia Shield as the upscaler for YouTube TV and all other streaming content on my Vizio M558-G1. Vizio's smart TV and upscaling software sucks, so an external device is essential for me and should be for all Vizio owners if you want the best picture possible. Vizio makes excellent panels at low prices, so costs must be cut somewhere. Vizio chooses to cut corners on smart TV and upscaling software.

P.S.: Rtings.com review of that Sony set indicates higher-than-normal input lag, which isn't great for gaming. https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x800g
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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by wco81 »

You can look at rtings.com for TV reviews. Their reviews also have sections on LZD.

Unless you have some 4K HDR content that you want to watch now, I'd wait to see what CES in January brings.

I think the manufacturers will be looking to make a big splash in 2020, with the Olympics and the Euro.

The state of live sports in UHD HDR is sad though. Thursday Night NFL games are streamed in 4K on the Fox Sports app. DirecTV has a few NBA, MLB and golf tourneys in 4K.

That is about it.

The NFL increasingly views big screen HDTV as competition for tickets to games, so they're not in a hurry to give some streaming company rights for 4K HDR broadcasts. Maybe with the next big TV contract, some tech company will blow them away and get streaming rights.

Right now, neither OTA or cable systems are ready to deploy many 4K channels. Well Comcast will have some on demand Olympics content but that's been it for the most part.

ATSC 3.0 has been approved and is being tested by some local stations around the country. But it's not clear what the economic incentives are for them to invest millions in new broadcasting equipment. The networks haven't committed to delivering any UHD HDR content, while they see their ratings decline. ATSC 3.0 can be connected to the Internet and allow stations to do targeted advertising (from spying on you) but even that may not be enough of an incentive for them to spend millions.

The companies pushing ATSC, which is mainly Sinclair which holds some of the patents, tried to get cell phone manufacturers to put ATSC 3.0 chips into smart phones but that's not going to happen. Those companies have no reason to help Sinclair and local TV stations.

So the only UHD HDR content comes from streaming services, which is a sector which is heating up with Apple and Disney jumping in, NBC and HBO Max set to follow next year. These don't carry sports.

Then there are the linear streaming services like Youtube TV and AT&T TV (used to be DirecTV Network). Sony Playstation Vue just went out of business. These services have raised prices to almost the same levels as cable and satellite so no advantage other than you don't need special equipment (but you might exceed bandwidth caps). The worst part is most of them are not streaming 5.1 on live programming.

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by pk500 »

All very good points, WCO. In theory, I agree with your premise: If you have a recent 1080p TV with a nice picture that you like, don't rush out to buy a 4K set unless you watch a lot of Amazon or Netflix programming or insist upon 4K gaming.

There's just not enough 4K content available on cable, satellite or cable-replacement streaming (YouTube TV, Sling, etc.) to justify getting a 4K set. Hell, ESPN, ABC and FOX still broadcast all of their content at 720p, regardless of whether it's over air, cable or streaming.

I made the leap because I was rocking a 9-year-old 720p plasma. The difference between 720 and 1080 content was enough for me to justify the new set, especially with the more vivid color of the new set.

Plus I watch enough Netflix and Amazon Prime content in 4K also to justify it. And finally, it looks like I'm grabbing an Xbox One X through a Black Friday deal to get native 4K gaming. Remember, the Xbox One S does not do native 4K gaming -- it only upscales 1080 gaming to 4K. It's looks better than my OG Xbox One at 1080, but it's not true 4K. Only the X does that.

I disagree with your inference that streaming TV will evaporate due to comparable costs with cable and satellite. One, that's not true: Streaming still is cheaper because you're not being nicked for FCC fees, DVR and set-top box rental fees, etc., etc. I'm paying $65 less per month for YouTube TV than I did for Spectrum cable. Plus streaming offers far more features.

The streaming business is consolidating, with poorly marketed (PlayStation Vue) and priced (DirecTV Now) services being weakened or eliminated from the market due to capitalist Darwinism. But YouTube TV continues to add subscribers and is making a big advertising push. Small sample size, but I have convinced at least five families to switch to YTTV since I made the jump about three months ago. And those converts are converting their friends and family. YTTV is an excellent service that I think has legs.
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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by wco81 »

pk500 wrote: I disagree with your inference that streaming TV will evaporate due to comparable costs with cable and satellite. One, that's not true: Streaming still is cheaper because you're not being nicked for FCC fees, DVR and set-top box rental fees, etc., etc. I'm paying $65 less per month for YouTube TV than I did for Spectrum cable. Plus streaming offers far more features.

The streaming business is consolidating, with poorly marketed (PlayStation Vue) and priced (DirecTV Now) services being weakened or eliminated from the market due to capitalist Darwinism. But YouTube TV continues to add subscribers and is making a big advertising push. Small sample size, but I have convinced at least five families to switch to YTTV since I made the jump about three months ago. And those converts are converting their friends and family. YTTV is an excellent service that I think has legs.
I think the incentives for linear streaming are curious. For instance, I heard a discussion with a reporter who's been following all this and he said AT&T is mainly interested in offering linear streaming to reduce churn of its mobile customers, because that costs them a lot.

Right now, a lot of money spent for developing new shows and movies is from Netflix. Amazon and Apple are also spending a lot. Disney is spending some but probably not as much on original shows for Disney+. But in a couple of years, these shows only available on streaming will divert more eyeballs from network and traditional cable channels. The only thing the broadcast and cable networks have going for them are their live sports contracts. But networks are seeing their ratings decline steadily.

Of course some people think there's a bubble with the money being spent on original scripted shows too. However, some people think it's inevitable that streaming services will have advertising at some point too.

So there will be an inevitable shakeout. Next NFL contract will be in 2023 and the next NBA TV contract in 2025. By 2023, both linear and OTT streaming will have consolidated to permanent players. Who knows if one of them is making big money, they may even make a bid for the NFL.

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by Rodster »

What's a good number for LDZ's? I found a Vizio on Amazon that shows 90. Is that a good number for a 55"? I tend to agree with wco81 and now the next big push is 8K sets for gaming. MS and Sony are actively promoting that the PS5 and the next XBOX will both do 8K gaming. How well, is anyones guess.

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Re: Kicking The Tires On A New TV...Advice Needed

Post by pk500 »

Rodster wrote:What's a good number for LDZ's? I found a Vizio on Amazon that shows 90. Is that a good number for a 55"? I tend to agree with wco81 and now the next big push is 8K sets for gaming. MS and Sony are actively promoting that the PS5 and the next XBOX will both do 8K gaming. How well, is anyones guess.
Yes, 90 is ample for a 55-incher. My Vizio M558-G1 has 90. Which model number are you considering, Rod?
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