Miracle on Ice...Biggest moment in sports history?

GROGtheNailer · Post by **GROGtheNailer** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:19 pm

Was in a thread at thunderpuck...thoughts?
 
 As a Canadian and also having the pleasure of watching both series, though I was 8 years old during the 72´ series, I look at both series as apples and oranges. I think the original question was the Miracle On Ice the greatest moment in sports history?
 
 I guess there would a lot of contributing factors in both games. The 72´ series was intense beyond belief, we had our athletes playing in the middle of the cold war in the hay-day of the Soviet Union. Back then it just wasn´t done to have North American teams go in there and play and to say that the atmoshere was tense is an under-statement.
 
 It was a great series of games, probably the greatest series of games and intense play to be seen with both countries pride at stake at what both thought was their game. Man, all of Canada stopped while this was going on and it was some of the most heroic hockey ever seen....on both sides. To experience it must of been something. That being said, I think most Canadians at the time felt we had a better chance of winning the series than the Russians and we did win eventually...barely
 
 Fast forward to 1980 and Lake Placid, N.Y. I think that people who say that " Miracle On Ice was the greatest moment in sports history " really have a good case. To put things in perspective, let´s talk a little bit about how the two teams stacked up.
 
 You have the Russians, the Soviet Union had won eight of the previous nine Olympic golds, that is a major feat in itself. They can and did use their best players as none of there best were considerd pro athletes even though they all could of been and could of easily starred in the NHL.
 
 The U.S. team had a lot less talent, though I really think that this was the U.S.´s definitive break-out as developing hockey players. Some of you might not realize this but back then American players were sometimes categorized as being not being able to win the big game or having the grit, not being tough enough. Even though in Canada we wanted the Americans to win ( I know I did and many others ) we more or less thought that they didn´t have the grit as a whole...as hockey players.
 
 If it would of been a 7 game series we wouldn´t of been having this conversation, the Russians back then were just too good. Basically the US had a bunch of players with less talent beating the Russians who were able to use NHL calibre players compared to anyone is North America. If I re-call, during the game, Tretiak was pulled after letting in an early goal ( correct me if i´m wrong ). Still cannot believe the Soviet coach did that An earlier exhibition game with the Russians resulted in the U.S. losing 10-3. Who would of thought? This was a huge upset, that the Americans beat Russia. I compare it to Junior A team beating a NHL team, well, close to it. It was huge. A one-game series and the Americans against huge odds came through.
 
 Some of the players on that US team made it to the NHL, like Neal Broten and Ken Morrow ( both went on to win Lord Stanley). I think this was the defining moment in US hockey and changed many opinions of US players. This also sparked many kids in the US wanting to play the sport as well. This even changed opinions of the Russians too. How many remember that after beating the Russians the US played Finland for the gold medal ? Though the big one was the Russian game.
 
 
 I think it could be argued very well that this was one of...if not the one...greatest moments in sports history. The 72´ series and the Miracle on Ice really are apples and oranges but from this Canadians perspective....it could very well be the greatest moment. The 72´ series... you guys should of been in Canada for that one Apples and oranges but the US vs USSR game is the biggest upset in sports history as far as i´m concerned.

Granatofan · Post by **Granatofan** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:44 pm

Every time I watch that show (I forget the name) of the documentary of the Miracle on Ice I get a tear in my eye. That being said, I do believe if Tretiak is not pulled from that game that the Russians win it. The coach apparently thought Tretiak´s head wasn´t in the game and was angry with him.
 
 The Canadians playing in the den of the bear could be considered just as great an accomplishment.
 
 How´s that for a non-answer? <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_confused.gif">

tjung0831 · Post by **tjung0831** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:05 pm

If the Miracle on ice gets you fired up click on the following link. Also watch the trailer....it sent chills down my spine!
 Kurt Russell as Herb Brooks.....who would have guessed that! I´ll be seeing this as soon as it hits the theaters.
 
 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0349825/
 
 Tim

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:08 pm

I think it´s too tough a question, the ´biggest moment in history.´
 
 I think for US Hockey, there is no question the ´80 Olympics is it; hard to believe it actually happened, and hockey in the States basically started for real because of it. Here´s a run-down from my perspective: losing 10-3 to the Red Army only like a week before the Olympics started; the Soviets not only had pro players, but that Red Army team basically trained and played together (and lived together) all year, for years and years, and were more akin to a modern-day pro team than a modern-day National Team, the likes of which will never be seen again (remember, they weren´t only Russian, but also Ukranian, Byelo-Russian, Khazakstani, Estonian, Latvian, etc. etc.); the US team was a bunch of north-eastern and mid-western college kids, i.e. no freaking chance to beat anybody, much less the all-powerful Red Army team (is it fair to say they may have been the greatest hockey team ever?). I was 9 at the time and still remember it, and yes I remember we had to beat Finland to win the gold (I listened to the end of it on the radio in the car, it was a Sunday I think), and not only that but came from behind in the 3rd period. And what American who saw it will forget the scene of Arruzione (sp?) calling the whole team to the podium, overflowing the rink with jubilant 19 and 20 year olds?
 
 It´s really what the Olympics is all about.
 
 If not for that single tourney, the most recent Olympic gold medal game would not have included the US and would certainly not have been nearly as good a game, even though it was not truly even. That one tourney made hockey an American sport, a sport we can truly embrace, a sport where we can be proud to be second best in the world and look forward to proving our mettle against those who consider the sport their birthright. Without it, I think hockey would still be like soccer here; played by tons of kids, esp. in certain areas, but no way would the NHL have 30 teams.
 
 That´s my perspective from south of the border, and on the east coast.
 
 [ This message was edited by: hugo on 10-12-2003 12:15 ] [ This message was edited by: hugo on 10-12-2003 12:19 ]

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:33 pm

Grog, Granato, Zeppo:
 
 I agree the Miracle on Ice and ´72 Canada Cup were landmark sporting happenings. But since hockey isn´t a worldwide game, I can´t consider them among the most significant sporting events of all time, as much as I love hockey.
 
 You can make the argument that the U.S. being screwed out of the gold medal in basketball in the 1972 Olympics against the Soviets was an even bigger upset and landmark sporting event.
 
 The U.S. skill advantage over the Soviets in hoops was just as significant, if not more, than the Soviets´ skill gap over the Americans in hockey. The Cold War was raging in 1972, too. Nixon had just become the first U.S. president to visit the Soviet Union, in May 1972, but the Cold War still was damn chilly.
 
 Plus you had two elements at play with the 1972 game that you didn´t have in 1980 at Lake Placid. One, basketball is a game played worldwide. Two, the U.S. was clearly screwed by the officials, at least one of whom was from the Eastern Bloc, I believe, adding that political intrigue.
 
 There are two other candidates I can think of for biggest moment in sports history that are greater than the Miracle on Ice.
 
 One is either the 1958 or 1970 World Cup. In 1958, the world saw a 17-year-old Pele do things with a soccer ball that never had been done before, leading Brazil to glory. In 1970, Pele willed Brazil to the World Cup in probably the greatest performance by a player in the World Cup, maybe only matched by Maradona in 1986. And soccer is the world´s game.
 
 But arguably the biggest moment in sports history also was one of the saddest: the massacre of the Israeli athletes at Munich in the 1972 Summer Olympics. OK, it wasn´t a sports story in the purest sense, but it was. The massacre shattered the illusion of sport as a pastime, as a pure athletic pursuit with noble goals.
 
 There were shades of that at Mexico City in 1968 with the Black Power salutes on the medal stand by U.S. sprinters John Carlos and Tommie Smith, but the Munich massacre changed sport and shattered its innocence forever.
 
 Oh, I just forgot another event I´d put ahead of the Miracle on Ice: Jesse Owens winning three gold medals at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin, snubbing Hitler´s idea that blacks were one evolution above apes and that German Lutz Long, Hitler´s idea of a supreme Aryan athletic specimen, was unbeatable. Berlin citizens also embraced Owens because of his class, dignity and close relationship with Long, really sticking it to Hitler.
 
 Now, returning to the original subject, I think the Miracle on Ice certainly helped increase awareness of hockey in the U.S. But the one date that triggered NHL expansion more than any other was Aug. 9, 1988 -- the date Wayne Gretzky was traded from Edmonton to Los Angeles.
 
 Moment of silence ... Grog, you and I can share a tear.
 
 Seriously, when Gretzky went to the Southland, he brought all of hockey with it. Without Gretzky being traded to L.A., there would have been no Anaheim, no San Jose, no Florida, no Tampa Bay, no Carolina, no return to Atlanta, no Phoenix and no move from Minnesota to Dallas. At least not nearly as quickly or to as many warm-weather cities.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 10-12-2003 12:51 ]

RiverRat · Post by **RiverRat** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:38 pm

PK beat me to it.
 
 I would argue that the most significant moment in sports history was the U.S./U.S.S.R. basketball final in 1972, tainted as it was.
 
 Why?
 
 Because up until that point, basketball was almost exclusively an American game. Now it is arguably the second most popular team sport in the world, and is played competently on every continent. This game was the first hint that maybe, someday, the rest of the world was going to learn this game and that basketball would someday become international. And tainted though it was, and at the risk of overly glorifying the Russians, the first 49:57 was one heck of a game.
 
 For the sheer “we beat ‘em” moment, I say yes to Miracle on Ice. And Pele’s World Cups brought the world’s most popular game to a new level. And the Israeli slaughter, Mexico City, and Berlin woke society up to some significant issues that perhaps we didn’t want to think about very hard.
 
 But for the sheer impact on sport and the tremendous changes that were heralded in the sporting world, I would pick the ’72 Olympic basketball final.
 [ This message was edited by: RiverRat on 10-12-2003 13:40 ]

tjung0831 · Post by **tjung0831** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:45 pm

The USA winning the gold medal will always be the biggest moment in sports history in my eyes. Everything that was happening in the world at the time....I can´t remember our country ever coming together like it did back in 1980. When something that happened in 1980 still sends chills down my spine every time I see something regarding it.....nothing is bigger than that.
 
 Tim

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:04 pm

After reading PK´s post, I have to say he has me convinced. I agree with most of what you said, with the exception that if 1980 hadn´t happened, perhaps Gretzky never would have gone to LA in the first place. Debatable, to be sure.
 
 But Owens in ´36, and the massacre of the Israeli atheletes in ´72, I would have to agree are right up there in terms of "biggest moment in sports history," in that they transcended mere ´sport´ and impacted international society to a degree that no other sport-related event I can think of (and I am no historian, much less a sports historian) has done. I mean, as I understand it, the ´72 Olympics almost didn´t continue after that terrible event, and as PK said "The massacre shattered the illusion of sport as a pastime, as a pure athletic pursuit with noble goals." Yet, the athletes decided they did want to continue, and perhaps THAT is really the "biggest moment in sports history;" not the terrorist act, but the continuation of the games despite it. [ This message was edited by: hugo on 10-12-2003 14:20 ]

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:17 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>Oh, I just forgot another event I´d put ahead of the Miracle on Ice: Jesse Owens winning three gold medals at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin, snubbing Hitler´s idea that blacks were one evolution above apes and that German Lutz Long, Hitler´s idea of a supreme Aryan athletic specimen, was unbeatable. Berlin citizens also embraced Owens because of his class, dignity and close relationship with Long, really sticking it to Hitler. </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Good call PK. Jesse Owens in Berlin definitely gets my vote. From a historical standpoint, his achievement was athleticism, politics, patriotism, sportsmanship and perseverance all rolled into one. At the Olympics and on an international stage. All the others mentioned are great choices as well, but Jesse is the man!

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:41 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2003-12-10 13:45, tjung0831 wrote:
 The USA winning the gold medal will always be the biggest moment in sports history in my eyes. Everything that was happening in the world at the time....I can´t remember our country ever coming together like it did back in 1980. When something that happened in 1980 still sends chills down my spine every time I see something regarding it.....nothing is bigger than that.
 
 Tim
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Tim:
 
 I respect your opinion.
 
 But there´s a big world and a big sporting world outside of our shores, and the Miracle on Ice didn´t register nearly as much in London and Nairobi as it did in Des Moines and Vladivostok.
 
 The Miracle on Ice brought the U.S. together unlike any sporting event I can remember, either. But it didn´t bring the rest of the world together like Munich in September 1972, for all the wrong reasons, or the 1958 or 1970 World Cups (other than North America), for Pele´s sheer brilliance.
 
 Face it, the Ali-Frazier fights, especially the Thrilla in Manila in 1975, had more overall global interest than the Miracle on Ice, I think. Ali was the most well-known sportsman in the world, Michael Jordan, David Beckham and Tiger Woods wrapped into one.
 
 The Thrilla in Manila was the world´s fight between two protagonists who were exact opposites in style and personality and whom really disliked each other.
 
 The Miracle on Ice was America´s victory, the USSR´s loss and an interesting diversion for the rest of the world. There was symbolism between the U.S. fighting the "Evil Empire" USSR, but do you think Boris Mikhailov really hated Mike Eruzione as much as Joe Frazier detested Muhammad Ali? Did Jim Craig hold up a toy gorilla doll of Vladislav Tretiak before the Olympics and punch it while making ape sounds and saying, "This is Tretiak," as Ali did with a rubber gorilla doll, mimicking Frazier, leading into the "Thrilla in Manila?"
 
 No.
 
 Frazier´s trainer, Eddie Futch, also insisted that Frazier would have died in the ring -- seriously -- if he went out for the 15th round. That´s how much punishment he took and how much he gave in the ring for that fight.
 
 Ali was panting so hard in the corner before the 15th round because he was having trouble breathing due to the relentless pounding Frazier gave his ribs.
 
 Again, that´s the epitome of drama, and it captured the entire world´s attention, as there´s boxing in every country and that was a time when boxing was followed by and mattered to people around the world.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 10-12-2003 14:48 ]

RiverRat · Post by **RiverRat** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:48 pm

On Jesse Owens ...
 
 Just for the sake of argument, I’m going to disagree with this one. It’s not that it wasn’t a great achievement, because it certainly was, and it was so at a very important time in history.
 
 BUT …
 
 It didn’t, in my opinion, change the course of history, and it didn’t really usher in anything new or important that otherwise wouldn’t have come. It did cast light on a very dangerous idea, that of racial superiority. And it also was a foreshadowing of what was to come in terms of attitude and the course of action those attitudes would set in motion. But it would be five years at least until people in this country begin to wake up to the man’s intentions. And Owens’s winning or losing wasn’t going to affect those intentions and probably wasn’t going to change any timelines for racial cleansing or war in Europe.
 
 If Owen’s feats caused a groundswell of support for or against the Nazis, changed the course of history, or somehow woke the world up to an evil that we weren’t aware of, I would agree. But those things wouldn’t happen until later in that decade, and when they did come, they were caused by events much more hideous than a Fuhrer being embarrassed by the fact that a black guy outran a white guy on a Berlin track.
 
 Don’t get me wrong. Owen’s feats were brilliant and poignant, and that includes the way he carried himself. Sometimes I just like to argue.
 [ This message was edited by: RiverRat on 10-12-2003 14:48 ]

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:00 pm

River:
 
 Damn good points.
 
 I guess Owens had a lot of impact for me because it was the first time I can remember that global athletics provided an indirect foil to politics, racial policy and an autocratic regime.
 
 I put Munich ´72 above anything as the most significant event in sports history. Hugo also made great points about the decision to continue the games, and the athletes´ dignity in competition after the massacre.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 10-12-2003 15:01 ]

Bill_Abner · Post by **Bill_Abner** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:04 pm

Good topic, impossible question. I don´t know what ´biggest´ really means. It would be hard to rank these IMO but I´d add the US Hockey team beating the Russians with:
 
 Ali / Frazier I (most electric sporting event maybe ever; plus it was about more than boxing)
 
 Billy Jeane King beating Bobby Riggs
 
 Namath´s Jets beating the Colts
 
 The 1957 Colts / Giants NFL Championship game "The Game" that made the NFL what it is today-- a viable TV product
 
 Owens at the Hitler Olympics
 
 Secretariat winning the Belmont Stakes by 31 lengths in 1972, capturing the Triple Crown. This is akin to a baseball player hitting a 600 foot homer in the bottom of the 9th in the World Series as a walk off home run.
 
 The above are not upsets, but the biggest upset in sports history, IMO, was James Buster Douglas knocking out Mike Tyson in Tokyo when everyone still thought Tyson was the best heavyweight maybe ever. That is at least on par with what the US hockey team did.
 
 I realize some of these aren´t global, but being a typical American, I don´t care what the world thinks! <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif"> [ This message was edited by: Bill_Abner on 10-12-2003 15:06 ]

tjung0831 · Post by **tjung0831** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:05 pm

Jessie Owens turned in a terrific individual performance considering the circumstances. But you could argue alot of olympians giving outstanding individual efforts....Mark Spitz, Eric Heiden, and a host of others.
 
 Tim

GROGtheNailer · Post by **GROGtheNailer** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:05 pm

Good points from all, and yeah some of those sporting events were more "world" effecting. I will say that the "Miracle on Ice" was the biggest upset in sports.

RiverRat · Post by **RiverRat** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:17 pm

Pk:
 
 Your idea that Berlin served as the first example of and ushered in the notion of sport as politics is a very good one, and one I did not consider. The Eastern Bloc turned this into an art form and made it a very real component of the Cold War. It also, as a byproduct, introduced us to the wonderful world of doping and steroids, something the sporting world is still saddled with.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:20 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2003-12-10 15:05, tjung0831 wrote:
 Jessie Owens turned in a terrific individual performance considering the circumstances. But you could argue alot of olympians giving outstanding individual efforts....Mark Spitz, Eric Heiden, and a host of others.
 
 Tim
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Tim:
 
 Come on: Spitz and Heiden´s accomplishments didn´t have anywhere near the political and racial implications of Owens at Berlin under the eye of Hitler and his ideals of Aryan supremacy.
 
 Take care,
 PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:23 pm

>>>The above are not upsets, but the biggest upset in sports history, IMO, was James Buster Douglas knocking out Mike Tyson in Tokyo when everyone still thought Tyson was the best heavyweight maybe ever. That is at least on par with what the US hockey team did.<<<
 
 Bill:
 
 Absolutely no question. Great call.
 
 While the U.S. upset of the Soviets was massive, the team did gain momentum during the tournament and was playing well. It´s not like the U.S. was 0-6 and then beat the Soviets, 10-0.
 
 Did the U.S. appear to have a chance before the USSR game? Not much, maybe a sliver because the team did jell during the tournament.
 
 But Buster Douglas? Come on, no one knew who the guy was let alone thought he´d go past the second round with Tyson, who was considered more of a predatorial machine than a human fighter at the time.
 
 That was massive. Forgot about that one!
 
 Take care,
 PK

tjung0831 · Post by **tjung0831** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:57 pm

Just a few personal favorites of mine.
 
 McGwire breaking the homerun record.
 One armed Jim Abbott pitching a no hitter.
 Kirk Gibson´s walkoff homerun in the 88 series.
 Watching Steve Yzerman skate the cup for the first time in 1997. If it wasn´t for Gretzky and Lemieux...Yzerman would be considered the best player of all time.
 
 Tim

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:14 pm

>>>Watching Steve Yzerman skate the cup for the first time in 1997. If it wasn´t for Gretzky and Lemieux...Yzerman would be considered the best player of all time.<<<
 
 God, Tim, I hate to be the constant contrarian, but you´re nuts. Yzerman isn´t even the greatest Red Wing of all time.
 
 You´re forgetting about two skaters who are head-and-shoulders above Yzerman:
 
 1. Gordie Howe -- still the greatest all-around player ever. Gretzky will tell you that to this day.
 
 2. Bobby Orr -- greatest defenseman ever and revolutionized the game.
 
 It´s also pretty easy to make the case that Mark Messier is better than Stevie Wonder. Mess is the No. 2 scorer in NHL history, won six Stanley Cups and is the prototypical leader in team sports over the last 20 years.
 
 And what about Marcel Dionne? He scored a TON of points for some pretty bad teams in L.A. OK, the Triple Crown line with Dionne, Charlie Simmer and Dave Taylor had its years, but Dionne is one of hockey´s true overlooked greats. I could put Stevie Y in Dionne´s category.
 
 And that´s just skaters. I would take Patrick Roy over Stevie Y in a heartbeat, too. He is the finest playoff goalie of all time and one of the greatest goalies, period. He was much more of a difference-maker to a team than Yzerman. The same could be said for Jacques Plante, Terry Sawchuk or Glenn Hall in the net, too.
 
 Including goalies, Yzerman probably wouldn´t crack my top 10. Maybe 10th, at best.
 
 I´d put Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Messier, Roy, Plante, Hall and Sawchuk ahead of Yzerman. Stevie Wonder and Dionne might duke it out for the 10th spot.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 10-12-2003 18:28 ]

tjung0831 · Post by **tjung0831** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:45 pm

Yeah you could argue Messier for sure. Howe wasn´t better than Gretzky or Lemieux....he gets that recognition just because he´s Gordie Howe the NHL´s first star. Orr changed the game for sure but didn´t play long enough in my eyes. I don´t rank great players just out of respect. You really think Gretzky is going to say "yeah..i´m better than Howe" How many times have you heard Howe say that. Gretzky and Lemieux are in a class by themselves.
 Yzerman is a better player than Dionne. We all have oppions and you´re entitled to yours but Yzerman´s got the stats and the rings to prove he ranks right behind Gretzky and Lemieux.
 
 Tim

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:34 pm

Yzerman is better than Howe or Orr? Pass the pipe this way.
 
 How has Yzerman revolutionized the game? He hasn´t. Orr did.
 
 Orr was the first true offensive defenseman, the first blueliner to carry the puck deep into the offensive end and be just as much of an offensive threat as any forward. He also was a hell of a defender due to his incredible speed.
 
 Orr was the most feared player in the game before his knees went. Yzerman never has been the most feared player in the NHL at any time in his career.
 
 Orr was the first player in NHL history to win three consecutive Hart Trophies as league MVP. And he was a defenseman!
 
 Yzerman falls into the Ron Francis-Marcel Dionne-Mark Messier mold as a steady star, a leader and a smart player. But putting him on the same pedestal as Howe or Orr is blasphemous. Oh, and wrong.
 
 And Howe was the NHL´s first star? You need to brush up on your hockey history. When Canadiens legend Howie Morenz died in 1937 after complications due to a broken leg that occurred when he was checked and his skate blade stuck in a crack in the boards, there was a state funeral held for him. Thousands of mourners streamed past his casket at his wake at the Montreal Forum.
 
 Among Morenz´s nicknames? The Babe Ruth of Hockey.
 
 And what about Eddie Shore, who debuted with Boston in 1927? Shore scored 12 goals and added six assists as a rookie, a ridiculous total for a defenseman in that era of the NHL. He also set an NHL record for penalty minutes in his second season, was an NHL All-Star in the Original Six era for eight of the first nine NHL All-Star teams.
 
 Shore also was the only NHL defenseman to win four Hart Trophies as the league´s most valuable player. He also led the Bruins to two Stanley Cups.
 
 I would call that star quality.
 
 And what about Rocket Richard? He wasn´t a star in Howe´s era? His career started before Howe´s, and trust me, Tim, he was a MEGA star in the NHL.
 
 Gordie Howe was the greatest two-way player in the history of the game. Period. There is absolutely no argument.
 
 Jesus H, just read a few excerpts from Howe´s bio below and tell me if Yzerman has accomplished a quarter of what Howe did:
 
 >>>>>
 His impact and records are mind-boggling. six decades, 32 pro seasons, 2,589 career points, 1,071 goals, 29 all-star appearances, all-time regular season scoring champ (NHL & WHA combined), all-time game-winning goal champ, only athlete in the world to play against players in every decade of the pro league’s existence (NHL 1920-s to present). seven-time MVP, six-time scoring champ, led teams to the final championship series round in 15 of his 32 seasons—including winning six world championship cups. Remarkably, he was in the top five in scoring in the NHL for 20 consecutive seasons—playing in the low scoring, tough original six era dominated by the highest concentration of talent in history. He was the complete player. He could shoot right, left, and play any position and was feared as one of the toughest players in history.
 
 His extraordinary talent, fame and allure helped the NHL to expand by over 350% during his tenure and also spawn a whole new league-- the World Hockey Association. When he retired from the sport he held more records than any team athlete in history. He is the first father in history to play a major sport with not one but two sons professionally for seven years. Gordie came out of retirement in 1973 to team up with the two boys. They won the championship that year with Mr. Hockey the MVP at the age of 45 and Mark the rookie of the year. He is considered the most durable athlete in history and amazingly he had his best seasons at the age of 41 and 48 years. He retired at age 52 in the NHL as a member of the Hartford Whalers leading the team to the playoffs.
 <<<<<
 
 You are insane if you put Yzerman ahead of Howe. You also can´t put Lemieux ahead of Howe. Gordie was a MUCH more complete player than Mario, who never has played a physical game and only has realized the meaning of backchecking at intermittent times during his career.
 
 The only guy who is in Howe´s class is Gretzky. I´ll buy the argument that Wayne is better because his numbers, and creativity on the ice, are mind-boggling. But no one is in Howe or Gretzky´s class for longevity, numbers, contributions to the game, etc.
 
 In the late 1950s, Gordie Howe was the MVP of the original six NHL. He was the leading scorer. He was the hardest checker. He was one of the best defensive forwards. And after beating the living s*** out of reigning NHL heavyweight champion Lou Fontinato on Feb. 1, 1959, at Madison Square Garden, Howe was the best fighter in the NHL. He was seldomly challenged again after that bout.
 
 So in other words, Howe was a regular Hart Trophy winner, a regular Art Ross Trophy winner, could have been a regular Selke Trophy winner if the award existed then and was the best fighter in the league -- all at the same time.
 
 And you put Steve Yzerman ahead of him? That´s borderline heresy.
 
 You´re entitled to your opinion. I just don´t think it´s a very informed one. Hockey didn´t start when Steve Yzerman debuted in 1983.
 
 Here are bios of Howe and Orr from SportsCentury at ESPN Classic that might give you a bit of historical perspective:
 
 http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Howe_Gordie.html
 
 http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Orr_Bobby.html
 
 Gretzky, Lemieux and Rocket Richard also were featured in the package. Sorry, Steve Yzerman didn´t make the list.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 10-12-2003 20:26 ]

GROGtheNailer · Post by **GROGtheNailer** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:14 am

All right, who was the dink who gave PK some sugar ?? You damn well know he´s not to have it....lol.
 
 PK´s right though, Stevie Y is a great player for sure BUT Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, and Orr are in a class of themselves. I´d put the top four like so:
 
 1. Gretzky99
 
 2. Orr
 
 3. Howe
 
 4. Lemieux
 
 I seriously can not see anyone breaking 99´s records.....they look so unattainable. I put Orr ahead of Howe because I just think he had more talent, too bad the knee´s went. Howe was great all-round player but I feel Orr was more talented, very close though.
 
 Also mentioned earlier, I do not think the Tyson - Douglas fight compares as an upset to the Miracle on Ice.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:35 am

For those interested in hockey history, I can´t recommend the book below by noted hockey writer and historian Stan Fischler enough:
 
 >>>>>
 THOSE WERE THE DAYS: THE LORE OF HOCKEY BY THE LEGENDS OF THE GAME [1976]
 by Stan Fischler
 Explores the early days of the game by gathering the reminiscences of the players who were there - Cyclone Taylor, Eddie Shore, Gordie Howe, and Maurice Richard among them. (331 p.)
 <<<<<
 
 Fischler sat down with tons of old-time hockey players, turned on the tape recorder and had them share their memories of the game. He also wrote prologues on each interview and player to ensure historical and statistical accuracy, from what I remember.
 
 I read the book while recovering from mononucleosis in fall 1984. One of the best sports books I´ve read, period. Plenty of stuff I learned from that book -- read nearly 20 years ago -- have stuck with me. I used that information throughout this thread, verified by a few Google searches. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif">
 
 Take care,
 PK

tjung0831 · Post by **tjung0831** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:08 am

Paul I know all about old time hockey and Morenz, shore, and Richard. I think you´re missing my point when I mention about Howe being hockeys first star. In my book Yzerman is the third best player behind Gretzky and Lemieux....that´s just my opinion....it isn´t any more right or wrong then yours!
 Glad to know that I was able to light a fire under your ass!
 
 Tim