2009 Election/Politics thread Part 1

Post by **Jared** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:21 pm

Here it is.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:28 pm

This has got to be one of the greatest headlines of all time for about 6 different reasons.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... l?ITO=1490

Former French President Chirac hospitalised after mauling by his clinically depressed poodle

Where does one even begin? I mean after first dispensing with the obligatory social niceties etc.

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:39 pm

RobVarak wrote: Where does one even begin? I mean after first dispensing with the obligatory social niceties etc.

You never know where the real dangers are are going to come from.

Poodles, Pretzels, chubby interns, etc...

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:09 pm

The animal, named Sumo...

I swear, this reads like an Onion article.

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:25 pm

Well the Messiah is closing Gitmo. Let the pussification begin!

ProvoAnC · Post by **ProvoAnC** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:32 pm

Its ok....its been scientifically proven that the best people to attempt conflict resolution with are people who blow themselves up, people who cut off other people's heads, and people who live in mud huts.

SO....we got that going for us

Patton is soooo pissed right now

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:40 pm

fsquid wrote:Well the Messiah is closing Gitmo. Let the pussification begin!

or as it is known elsewhere "compliance with internationally recognised law, compliance with sections 1 and 3 of the Geneva Convention, and the closure of a facility which was described by the head of the United Kingdom legal system as a 'shocking affront to democracy'" - and remember that British troops are there as well, so it isn't like calling it in from the sideline.

And that's without the well-proven torture, sleep deprivation etc.

ProvoAnC · Post by **ProvoAnC** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:49 pm

Just want to add one more thing about Jack's post reference returning soldiers.

--I also want to preface this with I was never in the military, but I have been shot at a few times and I have had IED's thrown at me. I also know what its like to live every minute for the guy next to you that I would gladly give my life for--

What the f*** do you think the military is for? Parades? Fleet week?

They kill people...that's what they do. Do you think that every swinging dick that signed on the dotted line is just some poor kid looking for a college education? Did it ever occur to you that there are those of us in this world that are natural born warriors and would relish the opportunity to shoot some smelly bearded terrorist in his f***ed up terrorist face and send him straight to hell?

I didn't sign up to be a cop so I could write tickets or hand out teddy bears to little kids. I signed up so I could f*** up bad guys.

Do some who've seen the elephant come back with mental problems? Sure...s*** I have reverse PTSD in that I'm depressed when I'm not getting shot at. But to say that a huge number of military people that shoot some terrorist asshole have a mental illness is wrong. In fact, a lot of them are probably glad they did. Its what they live for...its what they're trained to do.

The vast majority of people do not understand this, so I don't expect you to either.

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:56 pm

fsquid wrote:Well the Messiah is closing Gitmo. Let the pussification begin!

Nothing says Freedom like gitmo! I'm glad they're closing that embarrassment. If these people are guilty of something, do it on American soil.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:59 pm

greggsand wrote:
fsquid wrote:Well the Messiah is closing Gitmo. Let the pussification begin!
Nothing says Freedom like gitmo! I'm glad they're closing that embarrassment. If these people are guilty of something, do it on American soil.

They are only guilty of loving too much...

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:06 pm

ProvoAnC wrote:But to say that a huge number of military people that shoot some terrorist asshole have a mental illness is wrong. In fact, a lot of them are probably glad they did. Its what they live for...its what they're trained to do.

I agree that it's not a huge number. But killing terrorists is not the only thing that happens to soldiers in Iraq. I'd think having their buddies maimed and killed in front of them or accidentally maiming and killing civillians is much more likely to cause a returning soldier mental distress than shooting Beardy McTowelhead in his face.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:09 pm

The problem with Gitmo is that it's a f***in gulag. You get to stay as long as the military says, with secret evidence and other Soviet-style regulations. And we've stuck people there and in other secret prisons who are innocent and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It isn't that these people should be hugged or let go immediately. It's that the process in place does not work. There needs to be more transparency. It's the very secrecy of it that turned the public against the concept. Regardless of whether someone is a US citizen, it is not American to support detaining someone indefinitely without giving them a fair trial. It is impossible for that to happen when alleged combatants are being tried by US military personnel and often do not have access to the evidence being used against them.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:14 pm

greggsand wrote:
fsquid wrote:Well the Messiah is closing Gitmo. Let the pussification begin!
Nothing says Freedom like gitmo! I'm glad they're closing that embarrassment. If these people are guilty of something, do it on American soil.

I listened to a BBC news report today, that interview Chinese Muslims that fled China, and tried to make their way to Turkey. They were captured by bounty hunters in Afghanistan and given to the US Military. The US Military took them to Gitmo. They were hold for years and were interrogated by Chinese officials, who wanted them to to be tried for leaving the country.

The US let them go, but the only country that would take them was Albania.

Now if you take the story on face value, surely the government could have figured this out sooner. However, the story said they fled China in 2002, seems like could have found a better route to turkey to work.

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:48 pm

ProvoAnC wrote:
What the f*** do you think the military is for?
They kill people...that's what they do.

I didn't sign up to be a cop so I could write tickets or hand out teddy bears to little kids. I signed up so I could f*** up bad guys.

Wow. I don't know even know where to begin? The military's objective is to "kill people" and the police's objective is to "f*ck up bad guys".
I'm sure both organizations would be grateful to know how you reduced them to "caveman" status.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:52 pm

The secret to the Obama's happy marriage is revealed!

http://www.wwtdd.com/post.phtml?pk=17951

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:01 pm

greggsand wrote:
fsquid wrote:Well the Messiah is closing Gitmo. Let the pussification begin!
Nothing says Freedom like gitmo! I'm glad they're closing that embarrassment. If these people are guilty of something, do it on American soil.

nothing quite like setting up a domestically-located prison and its surrounding communities as a prime terrorist target

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:03 pm

Brando70 wrote:The problem with Gitmo is that it's a f***in gulag. You get to stay as long as the military says, with secret evidence and other Soviet-style regulations. And we've stuck people there and in other secret prisons who are innocent and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It isn't that these people should be hugged or let go immediately. It's that the process in place does not work. There needs to be more transparency. It's the very secrecy of it that turned the public against the concept. Regardless of whether someone is a US citizen, it is not American to support detaining someone indefinitely without giving them a fair trial. It is impossible for that to happen when alleged combatants are being tried by US military personnel and often do not have access to the evidence being used against them.

what would you have them do with enemy combatants? They have no place in our criminal court system, and they certainly have no rights under our Constitution.

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:18 pm

fsquid wrote:
greggsand wrote:
fsquid wrote:Well the Messiah is closing Gitmo. Let the pussification begin!
Nothing says Freedom like gitmo! I'm glad they're closing that embarrassment. If these people are guilty of something, do it on American soil.
nothing quite like setting up a domestically-located prison and its surrounding communities as a prime terrorist target

If terrorist want to coordinate an attack on a maximum security prison on the outskirts of somewhere like Lawrence, Kansas or Bolder, Colorado, I'd like our chances to thwart the attack...

Just look at the horrors:
Beaten, Bloodied T.J. Houshmandzadeh Hoping Obama Closes Gitmo Soon
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/be ... _rss_daily

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:41 pm

ProvoAnC wrote:Just want to add one more thing about Jack's post reference returning soldiers.

--I also want to preface this with I was never in the military, but I have been shot at a few times and I have had IED's thrown at me. I also know what its like to live every minute for the guy next to you that I would gladly give my life for--

What the f*** do you think the military is for? Parades? Fleet week?

They kill people...that's what they do. Do you think that every swinging dick that signed on the dotted line is just some poor kid looking for a college education? Did it ever occur to you that there are those of us in this world that are natural born warriors and would relish the opportunity to shoot some smelly bearded terrorist in his f***ed up terrorist face and send him straight to hell?

I didn't sign up to be a cop so I could write tickets or hand out teddy bears to little kids. I signed up so I could f*** up bad guys.

Do some who've seen the elephant come back with mental problems? Sure...s*** I have reverse PTSD in that I'm depressed when I'm not getting shot at. But to say that a huge number of military people that shoot some terrorist asshole have a mental illness is wrong. In fact, a lot of them are probably glad they did. Its what they live for...its what they're trained to do.

The vast majority of people do not understand this, so I don't expect you to either.

Co-sign.

I know JackB1 means well and I respect his passion. He just has no clue about the type of person that volunteers to go defend this country and our cities. Hell, less than 1 percent of 297 million Americans are in active duty military or the reserves.

After the war in Iraq started men and women were still joining up to serve knowing they would go to Iraq. Those soldiers don't want pity,they don't want someone to patronize them as idiots who didn't have a clue what they were getting into. And yes Jack,a soldier is trained to kill. Every soldier that goes through US Army basic training is taught to kill no matter what their MOS is going to be. It is what it is.

I work with many Vietnam Vets that have issues,be it because of the fact they were drafted into a war they didn't agree with or Agent Orange.
Most of the soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan that I've talked to that have issues are the National Guard and Reserve soldiers that were not expecting to go to war. That was a bad career move on their part. The Army lets you know that if we go to war,we all go. The one thing you never want to do part time is train for war. Many were looking to get help with college or put 20 years in and snag a pension. Unfortunately,it didn't work out that way and sadly we have lost many "Citizen Soldiers" in both wars.

I've trained many "Citizen Soldiers" and the only ones that I trusted to be in combat with were Ranger School grads. Don't get me wrong,I respect every soldier. I just don't want to be in a firefight with someone that's trained one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer. I believe they will make up the highest percentage of soldiers having issues with PTSD. I hope they get all the help they need because they deserve it. They played a huge part in the success we now see in Iraq.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:42 pm

greggsand wrote:
fsquid wrote:
greggsand wrote: Nothing says Freedom like gitmo! I'm glad they're closing that embarrassment. If these people are guilty of something, do it on American soil.
nothing quite like setting up a domestically-located prison and its surrounding communities as a prime terrorist target
If terrorist want to coordinate an attack on a maximum security prison on the outskirts of somewhere like Lawrence, Kansas or Bolder, Colorado, I'd like our chances to thwart the attack...

Just look at the horrors:
Beaten, Bloodied T.J. Houshmandzadeh Hoping Obama Closes Gitmo Soon
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/be ... _rss_daily

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:44 pm

fsquid wrote:They have no place in our criminal court system, and they certainly have no rights under our Constitution.

The Supreme Court disgareed with that in Boumediene v. Bush.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:48 pm

Feanor wrote:
fsquid wrote:They have no place in our criminal court system, and they certainly have no rights under our Constitution.
The Supreme Court disgareed with that in Boumediene v. Bush.

Yet another pebble on the scale in favor of suspending habeus corpus.

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:57 pm

I see it was only a 5-4 verdict. Do you know which member of the Supreme Court is the oldest/nearest to reitrement?

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:59 pm

fsquid wrote:
Brando70 wrote:The problem with Gitmo is that it's a f***in gulag. You get to stay as long as the military says, with secret evidence and other Soviet-style regulations. And we've stuck people there and in other secret prisons who are innocent and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It isn't that these people should be hugged or let go immediately. It's that the process in place does not work. There needs to be more transparency. It's the very secrecy of it that turned the public against the concept. Regardless of whether someone is a US citizen, it is not American to support detaining someone indefinitely without giving them a fair trial. It is impossible for that to happen when alleged combatants are being tried by US military personnel and often do not have access to the evidence being used against them.
what would you have them do with enemy combatants? They have no place in our criminal court system, and they certainly have no rights under our Constitution.

Maybe they don't go into the criminal court system. But I'm sure that we can devise a better system than what we have.

The problem is two-fold. First, you have an open-ended war with an idea: the War on Terror. As that war is defined, it can never end. There will always been anti-American terrorists. Since hostilities will likely never cease, there's the possibility that anyone labeled a combatant will be locked up for life, regardless of level of guilt.

Second, you have a court procedure that's completely rigged against the accused. The reason why these guys languish for years in Gitmo is because it's almost impossible for them to disprove their accusers. The type of evidence allowed against detainees is some of the most biased, flimsy, and secretive. Even ones that get cleared sometimes don't get released. That is wrong. I don't doubt that most of the people there probably were involved in some levels of terrorist activity, but we're literally throwing a bunch of people in a hole and not making much effort to see if they really belong there.

Imagine the War on Drugs in this way. The U.S. is allowed to sweep through a poor neighborhood and arrest anyone it likes. We would nab drug dealers, sure, but probably a bunch of bystanders and maybe people who, while shady or associates, are not necessarily criminals. Or lumping together small-time weed dealers with guys who are truly dangerous. Some people would probably applaud this approach, but if you found a number of innocent people stuck there, there would be outrage.

All I'm saying is that the US can set up a procedure that gives the accused a chance at real justice while also protecting us from more dangerous terrorists. Secret military tribunals and indefinite detentions are not the long-term solution here.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:03 pm

Feanor wrote:I see it was only a 5-4 verdict. Do you know which member of the Supreme Court is the oldest/nearest to reitrement?

I know that Stevens and Ginsberg are the two oldest, Stevens is in his late 80's. After that I think Scalia and Kennedy are around their early 70's.