OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 2

[Teal]

I'd prefer Palin's daughter to have her privacy like everyone else does. However, it's another reminder of how abstinence only education doesn't work (something Palin supports, obviously I don't know the details in this case). But it's something to think about...

The religious right hates abortion. Proper sex education has been proven to work better than abstinence only education (for obvious reasons)... so they end up causing more of something they abhor.

Education has never been the answer to anything like this. This stuff is a matter of love, support, and proper rearing. Even at that, people have an insatiable desire to find out things on their own, and will make mistakes. When mistakes ARE made, it's a little too late for high horse judgments, and hindsight moralism. That's where the evangelical types screw up most. Well, that, and the fact that, as little as something like this has to do with education (it ain't their minds that are engaged when they're doing the horizontal mombo)...it has just as little to do with morality. Pressing into morality like some do (drumbeat of Ten Commandments rigidity), actually has the opposite effect people think it does.

So what's the answer? Grace. People do stupid things. For every teenager who has sex before marriage, there's a parent who chooses porn over his wife, a woman who cheats on her husband, and parents who aren't as engaged in their kids' lives as they need to be. So rather that all the finger pointing, what would be better is grace. My belief is that Sarah and her family are offering just that. Are they disappointed? No doubt. I would be too. But just like it's no reason to hand her a box of condoms, it's also no reason to dump scorn on her either. A new life is on the way, and whether it's the result of a stupid decision or not, the kid has nothing to do it, and should bear no fault for it, nor suffer any consequences of it.

[Brando70]

I'd prefer Palin's daughter to have her privacy like everyone else does. However, it's another reminder of how abstinence only education doesn't work (something Palin supports, obviously I don't know the details in this case). But it's something to think about...

I agree. Her daughter does deserve her privacy, but I think this relate to Palin's views on abstinence-only education. The studies have shown that abstinence-only programs don't really have that much of an impact on teen sexual behavior.

Teenagers are going to have sex in significant numbers. That's not going to change no matter what you teach them. I spent 12 years in Catholic school, and there was plenty of sexual activity even though we had the no-sex-until-marriage message broadcast at us.

It's also true that teens won't always use birth control, no matter how much you preach it to them. But more will certainly use protection if they know about the risks and how to properly guard against them.

The problem with abstinence-only education is the "only" part. It makes perfect sense to teach teens to abstain from sex, and to be completely forthcoming on the emotional and physical difficulties in becoming sexually active. I think you can teach those things along with a knowledge of what prevents pregnancy, without it seeming like you're endorsing the behavior. Avoiding the topic of birth control only increases the chance of turning a minor mistake -- losing your virginity to someone you later regret -- into a huge, life-chaning one that affects not only you, but the baby.

I personally would avoid bringing it up against Palin, out of respect for her family, but go after McCain pretty aggressively on the issue in the debate.

[Brando70]

With all due respect, Teal, grace doesn't feed a baby. Grace doesn't help a teenage mother get a job where she can support her baby. Grace doesn't help that mother raise a baby without a father.

It is great that Palin's daughter is getting the support she needs. My sister got pregnant at 19 by some deadbeat, and she was very fortunate that my parents stepped up and helped her raise my nephew -- a very bright, well-adjusted boy despite growing up without his father. However, Palin is very well-to-do, and my parents were also at a point where they were doing well economically. If I had gotten a girl pregnant back when my father was still in the Navy, I could not have gotten nearly the level of support my sister did.

The bottom line is, birth control greatly reduces the risk of pregnancy, and for devices like condoms, their effectiveness increases dramatically if used properly. All teens should be aware of birth control. They and their parents can then discuss the moral implications of sexual activity.

[RobVarak]

Are we really going to see the Democrats capitalize on this to go after Palin's position on abstinence? I'm pretty cynical, but that surprises even me. I'm sure that if one of Obama's daughters were older and became pregnant we would be free to have a frank and open discussion about the problems of teen pregnancy in the black community?

This from many of the same people who get bent out of shape by a photoshopped Cream of Wheat box? I guess we all have different standards for what's offensive.

[JackB1]

This bombshell of Palin's 17 year old daughter being pregnant can't help.
It is a direct reflection of her parenting skills or lack thereof. I feel bad for these 2 kids who are now forced to get married because their Mom is running for VP. You know this thing is doomed from the start.

BTW, it has been revealed that Palin was initially all for that ridiculous "Bridge To Nowhere" until she found out it wasn't politically expedient. She then did an about face (aka "flip-flop") and said she was against it.

[TheHiddenTrack]

Are we really going to see the Democrats capitalize on this to go after Palin's position on abstinence? I'm pretty cynical, but that surprises even me. I'm sure that if one of Obama's daughters were older and became pregnant we would be free to have a frank and open discussion about the problems of teen pregnancy in the black community?

This from many of the same people who get bent out of shape by a photoshopped Cream of Wheat box? I guess we all have different standards for what's offensive.

I could care less that her daughter is pregnant. That's incidental, it wouldn't prove my point anyway. I would have left it out of my post but I thought people would bring it up considering I literally can't go to a news site without seeing the headline. If making that connection is too offensive then I apologize.

What proves my point is all the studies that have been done that say abstinence only sex education doesn't work. And this is, yet again, another example of Palin having a position that is ideological rather than fact based (global warming, creationism v. evolution, and I suspect stem cell research). And yes, I think it's important to know about these issues because they are examples of denying reality.

[JohnnytheSkin]

Now drop by Mears Park next week and we'll talk this bullshit over some cold ones. Believe it or not I have grown to like Grain Belt beer. I'll buy!

Hey, I'll never support the jokesters laying down in the street, breaking windows, etc. As my mom used to say (and I'm sure yours did as well), "a few bad apples spoil the bunch". While my wife works downtown we've been spared the worst here in the northeast suburbs of Saint Paul. All we have to worry about is the fact that our police officers are providing the extra security detail for the convention and not watching our streets.

And I'll take you up on that offer one day, man, and there's nothing wrong with Grain Belt beer (Summit is a tasty brew, and the isn't half bad).

[Brando70]

Are we really going to see the Democrats capitalize on this to go after Palin's position on abstinence? I'm pretty cynical, but that surprises even me. I'm sure that if one of Obama's daughters were older and became pregnant we would be free to have a frank and open discussion about the problems of teen pregnancy in the black community?

This from many of the same people who get bent out of shape by a photoshopped Cream of Wheat box? I guess we all have different standards for what's offensive.

Come on. You don't think if this shoe was on Obama's foot that the right-wing noise machine would be spewing all kinds of invective about how it's an indictment of liberal morality and that it was probably because her mother was more ambitious than maternal? Palin is getting off easy compared to what would have happened if Obama's daughters or a teenage Chelsea Clinton were pregnant.

Palin's daughter should be left in private -- I'm not advocating "going after her." However, abstinence-only education is one of the "culture war" points that differentiate the parties. I think you can address it without having to bring up the governor's daughter, which is why I think the question should be posed to McCain: what is his position on abstinence-only programs, and does he feel that they are effective? Teen pregnancy is a serious issue in this country, and I would like to know what his position is on trying to reduce teen pregnancies.

[JackB1]

Details on Palin's flip flop on the Bridge To Nowhere:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26486063/

[pk500]

How many of you have grown up in a town of 9,000 in the middle of nowhere? Teen pregnancy is a way of life in places like that.

I married a woman from one of those towns, and my wife's sister had two kids out of wedlock by the time she was 21. Same father, though. Does that make my mother-in-law a bad mother? No, not at all. She's a wonderful mother.

No question that Bristol Palin isn't a farm girl from a family with an average income of $30,000. But I bet Wasilla is the kind of place where BMW's aren't heading toward the country club, where Biff and Buffy are talking about how little Trey is heading to Yale. It's rough country, a place where adult life starts before or at high school graduation, not after four years of party-fueled undergrad, two years of grad school and an internship, with a spot in Daddy's firm or business assured when they decide to grow up at age 24.

If Bristol Palin's friends are "regular folk" in town, then she faces much different peer pressure than the daughter of a governor who has lived in a tawny area with a life of privilege.

I also know someone from Wasilla, used to work with her every May at Indy. Those people are tough and self-reliant as hell, so I don't think having a child as a teen is seen as the life-shattering event that it is in the affluent 'burbs of the Lower 48.

No question this isn't a savory situation for the Palins. But again, it's a real situation, something countless families around America experience. It puts Palin more in touch with the people than a candidate who has led the perfect life with the Barbie wife and the pressed-and-scrubbed Janie and Jimmy by their sides.

I don't think the pregnancy is a positive, but it certainly isn't the negative that left-wing histrionics are indicating.

My only quibble is Palin's ambition at such a sensitive time for her family. Why put your 17-year-old daughter and her pregnancy into the national spotlight -- you knew she was preggo -- by accepting the veep bid? I'm not sure I would have made the same decision.

Take care,
PK

[RobVarak]

Come on. You don't think if this shoe was on Obama's foot that the right-wing noise machine would be spewing all kinds of invective about how it's an indictment of liberal morality and that it was probably because her mother was more ambitious than maternal? Palin is getting off easy compared to what would have happened if Obama's daughters or a teenage Chelsea Clinton were pregnant.

Well that logic doesn't work when my kids tell me that I should let them off because somebody else wouldn't be so strict, and it's not going to work. Lowering standards because somebody else would is no way to justify any behavior.

And it's not even that anyone is "going after" Bristol Palin. What's sickening is that people are using her pregnancy to "score points" on a topic which was not even on the table 48 hours ago. I'll take HiddenTrack at his word when this issue was on his plate already, but that is definitely not the case for most of the Left on this topic.

If you think it benefits the Democrats to start making the debate about cultural issues, I would suggest that you spend some more time thinking about where the GOP is vulnerable.

I am beginning to worry that they excommunicate some folks from the Church of Barack. Did nobody hear The Voice say, "Back off!"?

Jack, we went over the Bridge to Nowhere stuff a few nights ago. Take a look back a few pages for some point-counterpoint stuff.

[XXXIV]

This bombshell of Palin's 17 year old daughter being pregnant can't help.
It is a direct reflection of her parenting skills or lack thereof.
.

My girlfriend got pregnant at 17...Now I have to go tell her mother what a piece of crap parent she was.

[JackB1]

My only quibble is Palin's ambition at such a sensitive time for her family. Why put your 17-year-old daughter and her pregnancy into the national spotlight -- you knew she was preggo -- by accepting the veep bid? I'm not sure I would have made the same decision.

Take care,
PK

Agree. Not to mention her newborn down syndrome baby of her own. Seems like she has a very full plate right now and her family might need a mother figure around.

[Jared]

OK. A few things, some with my mod hat on.

First, let's not go with the "you haven't denounced this" posts, especially when bringing up things that haven't been posted in the forums before. I don't want this thread to turn into "you didn't denounce X, therefore you are a [insert horrible group here]".

(And for the record, the Condi Rice cartoon also has racial undertones and is offensive, just to make it clear.)

Second, just because someone likes a specific commentator/writer/etc., that doesn't mean that they hold some extreme views. Let's let posters comments speak for themselves, and not try and fill in the blanks with some hyper-polarized version of what they might think.

Third, let's not assume that every single thing ever done by a politician is done for political gain. It could be that the RNC's changes are political, but it could be that there are people that actually care about the plight of those in the path of Gustav.

Fourth, just because a teenager makes a mistake doesn't mean that her parents are bad parents. There would be no good parents if everyone else was held to that standard.

[TheGamer]

My main problem (and ultimately none of my business) is that Palin seems to be putting ambition in front of family. Her daughter and her newborn need her more than the country does. It seems to me that VP is not a normal 9-5 job that you can work around family. Another problem is that they are making these kids get married at 17 and 18, when they are probably not ready. I think getting married will compound "the situation". A google search will reveal that the young man has stated he doesn't want any kids. He appears to a bit of a knucklehead. I'm sure though he didn't think getting laid was going to put him the national spotlight.

[RobVarak]

My main problem (and ultimately none of my business) is that Palin seems to be putting ambition in front of family. Her daughter and her newborn need her more than the country does. It seems to me that VP is not a normal 9-5 job that you can work around family. Another problem is that they are making these kids get married at 17 and 18, when they are probably not ready. I think getting married will compound "the situation". A google search will reveal that the young man has stated he doesn't want any kids. He appears to a bit of a knucklehead. I'm sure though he didn't think getting laid was going to put him the national spotlight.

Nobody would ever, ever express that sentiment about a man running for office.

Andyou'd best believe that the "feminists" would be all over it about Palin...if only she were not a conservative.

[JackB1]

My main problem (and ultimately none of my business) is that Palin seems to be putting ambition in front of family. Her daughter and her newborn need her more than the country does. It seems to me that VP is not a normal 9-5 job that you can work around family.

Governor of Alaska ...maybe. Vice President of the USA...no way.

Also, what about the names of her kids? Track, Trig, Bristol, Willow, Piper???
Another interesting tidbit....Palin also married her High School sweetheart and gave birth 8 months later, so she was 1 month pregnant before getting married. You really think they planned to have this recent baby at age 45?
Seems like someone needs to educate this family on the values of birth control and planned parenthood.

[SPTO]

Interesting article from the NYT via MSNBC.com that suggests that the Pallin pick was a rush job and she wasn't carefully vetted.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26501863/?GT1=43001[/url]

I found it interesting that it was suggested that McCain was holding out hope to pick either Lieberman or Ridge but was rebuffed by the GOP and was threatened with a floor fight on the convention if he picked either of them. He was also looking at safer picks in Pawlenty and Romney but was told that he should pick someone to really shake up his campaign.

It seems like Pallin was picked at a last resort as those in Alaska are claiming that none of McCain's people asked about Pallin and it seems that he basically picked her a day or two before announcing her to the world as his running mate.

[GTHobbes]

I just saw that Saddleback Church forum over the weekend, and there's no way anybody can convince me that McCain didn't already know the questions before they were asked. For his spokesperson to use the prisoner of war angle in the campaign's response to the criticism is ridiculous, IMO.

Oh well, regardless of who wins this thing, at least we won't have douchebags Bush and Cheney in charge anymore.

[pk500]

Also, what about the names of her kids? Track, Trig, Bristol, Willow, Piper???

Jack:

You can't be serious. What the hell difference does it make what she names her kids?

My kids don't exactly have conventional names, either. Not everyone wants Jason, Jack and Jennifer.

Another interesting tidbit....Palin also married her High School sweetheart and gave birth 8 months later, so she was 1 month pregnant before getting married. You really think they planned to have this recent baby at age 45?
Seems like someone needs to educate this family on the values of birth control and planned parenthood.

Again, so f*cking what? My wife and I didn't plan on having our third child. We always said we wanted two and would welcome more if it happened, based on our beliefs. He happened, and he's a wonderful lad. I was three months shy of 40 and my wife had just turned 39 when he was born.

No offense, dude, but you sure seem to have a lot of answers about parenthood and having kids considering you have no children. Not everyone has the same values as you when it comes to contraception and family planning, and frankly, I don't know what relevance any of this plays in Palin's fitness to be vice president of the United States.

John McCain is divorced. Does that disqualify him to be president, too? Does he need an education on the values of the sanctity of marriage?

For a guy who leans left, you're sure sounding like a member of the Ralph Reed gang!

Take care,
PK

[webdanzer]

For a guy who leans left, you're sure sounding like a member of the Ralph Reed gang!

Take care,
PK

The Palin pick has exposed a tremendous amount of hypocrisy from both sides, even moreso than usual for political discourse. Holy Rollers praising the mom of a pregnant, unwed teen, Liberal women columnists writing essays about how a mom should be home with the kids, etc...

So it doesn't surprise me that a fan of Barack Hussein Obama, is making an issue over names...

[XXXIV]

So it doesn't surprise me that a fan of Barack Hussein Obama, is making an issue over names...

I just spit my coffee out....

[TheGamer]

My main problem (and ultimately none of my business) is that Palin seems to be putting ambition in front of family. Her daughter and her newborn need her more than the country does. It seems to me that VP is not a normal 9-5 job that you can work around family. Another problem is that they are making these kids get married at 17 and 18, when they are probably not ready. I think getting married will compound "the situation". A google search will reveal that the young man has stated he doesn't want any kids. He appears to a bit of a knucklehead. I'm sure though he didn't think getting laid was going to put him the national spotlight.

Nobody would ever, ever express that sentiment about a man running for office.

Andyou'd best believe that the "feminists" would be all over it about Palin...if only she were not a conservative.

Rob, those aren't normal circumstances. A child with Down's syndrome and a teenage pregnancy. it has nothing to do with her being a woman. I wouldn't suggest any parent bring unnecessary stress into the life of their pregnant teenage daughter. She's going to have to go through enough already to have to try to ignore everything the media and the world is going to say about her.

[Jared]

There are lots of reasons to be concerned about Palin as a VP pick. But child naming is not one of them.

[RobVarak]

. Holy Rollers praising the mom of a pregnant, unwed teen,

I have a totally unscientific, apolitical theory about this. My opinion is that between by often neglecting birth control education and generally being bigger tight-asses than the parents in Footlose means that a disproportionate percentage of staunchly religious people have to deal with this sort of thing than similarly situated moderates.

It's only natural that they're sympathetic...