Collingsworth sounds ok but it still sounds canned. It sounds much like when Madden use to give one of his sound bites.
My point is it doesn't have good flow. It's like situation A happens insert audio bite A.
Two games that have great flow that don't sound forced is NFL2K5 and MLB The Show. These two games sound natural like your watching a game on TV and the audio is happening while the action takes place.
I still had no problem with the radio guy but that's what everyone wants I guess.
Madden 09 gameplay video
Moderators: Bill_Abner, ScoopBrady
I didn't mind the commentary. It was better than boring madden and the radio guy. Looks like they updated the menu's, that's a plus. I still probably may rent it rather than buy it. Is another version of APF coming this year? I bought that game for like 60 last year and it was good for the first 2 weeks and I never touched it again. APF is so been there done that to me now. I'm not gonna get burned this time around.
Football games have just started sucking the last few years.
Football games have just started sucking the last few years.
No, there won't be any APF 2K9. Can't disagree with you more about 2K8, though- I'm pretty sure I'll still be playing it over Madden 10 or 11, barring something unforeseen (like EA getting their act together).Inuyasha wrote:I didn't mind the commentary. It was better than boring madden and the radio guy. Looks like they updated the menu's, that's a plus. I still probably may rent it rather than buy it. Is another version of APF coming this year? I bought that game for like 60 last year and it was good for the first 2 weeks and I never touched it again. APF is so been there done that to me now. I'm not gonna get burned this time around.
Football games have just started sucking the last few years.
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ScoopBrady
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While I personally wouldn't use the rewind feature I'm really liking the sound of the My Skill feature which basically tests your skill and creates a difficulty level based upon the results. I don't know if it will work in practice but I like the theory. That's the type of featues I like to see added instead of superficial things like refs on the field or sideline crap.
The Backtrack feature looks cool too. If it works properly it looks like a good way to see things you may have missed when the play unfolded.
I'd love if they addressed suction blocking but I've accepted that it's not going to happen right now and it really can't on a 9-month development cycle. I've been one of the few that has actually enjoyed Madden on the next gen and I'm pumped as hell for Madden this year. The deluxe edition with Head Coach packed in is another big reason why.
The Backtrack feature looks cool too. If it works properly it looks like a good way to see things you may have missed when the play unfolded.
I'd love if they addressed suction blocking but I've accepted that it's not going to happen right now and it really can't on a 9-month development cycle. I've been one of the few that has actually enjoyed Madden on the next gen and I'm pumped as hell for Madden this year. The deluxe edition with Head Coach packed in is another big reason why.
I am a patient boy.
I wait, I wait, I wait, I wait.
My time is water down a drain.
I wait, I wait, I wait, I wait.
My time is water down a drain.
I had an interesting back and forth with Ian Cummings over on Madden Mania. Thought I'd re-post it here for anyone who was interested:
Ian,
It's nice to see you on here providing such in-depth support of your product. I've spent a fair amount of time under the hood as it were (which is to say in instant replay mode) with both Madden '08 and APF 2K8, and it's really allowed me to pinpoint the areas where I think the 2K engine distances itself from the shared EA engine. As I would like to see EA's games get better, I'm curious as to how you would address these issues:
1) The quality of player animations. I think this is really where EA went wrong in the next-gen with both the Madden and Live series- instead of concentrating on the quality of the animations, they put the graphical emphasis on the player models. As a result, the models are gorgeous, but they don't move well and, more importantly, they really don't interact well. A good example would be how the WR/DB play is on the line of scrimmage. In 2K8 (or NFL 2K5, for that matter), the wide receiver will put a move on to try and beat the corner at the line, while the corner will try to knock the receiver off their timing early (and Bump Master corners are particularly effective at it). You see corners shading inside or outside, backpedaling, moving into trail position, etc, etc. Meanwhile, the receivers run very crisp routes and make sudden plants on their breaks to separate. When you watch pass plays in Madden 08 and move the camera over to the WR/DB play, you get...nothing. Literally. The receiver starts to run his route and the corner basically floats around for the first second or two before moving to cover the receiver, and even then, you never get the sense that the corner is playing any kind of specific technique. That's part of what makes the passing game frustrating- you can't read the corner play and make your decisions.
There are similar animation problems on the line. Quite simply, you never see offensive linemen apply double teams, or even move over to help the guy next to him by delivering a blow while still looking out for other defenders. A linemen is either engaged or he isn't, and if he isn't, he's standing around with his arms in the air doing nothing. Pass protection becomes like a kung fu movie, where if the defender beats the first man, the second man will then step up and try to block him, but it's all 1-on-1 interactions and it really doesn't work like an actual NFL pocket. And because there is a lack of effective animation between the OL and DL, you never really get a true pocket, as the DEs are suction blocked into the linemen one or two yards past the line of scrimmage. You never see OL-DL engagement where the defensive player isn't held up but is simply pushed upfield. In 2K8, the quality of the animations allows you to play as a defensive end and set up the offensive tackle with a variety of moves, but the suction blocking makes those much less effective in Madden and makes playing along the line much less interesting. It also leads to the absolute no-no of 20 step dropbacks, which are the absolute bane of my existence.
The quarterback animations are another area where there is a huge difference between Madden and 2K8. I think part of this is a result of 2K deciding to utilize an autodrop, and frankly it's a decision I think is the correct one. I'm all for having complete and fluid player control- I thought it was a strength of the Madden games on the Xbox. But the passing game is predicated on timing, and it makes sense to have the quarterback make 3, 5 and 7 step drops according to the routes in question. The quality of the drop animations, of the quarterback movements and of the different deliveries are much, much better in 2K8. Not only do you get noticeably different velocity and power depending on who the quarterbacks are, you get different deliveries.
2) The passing physics
This is another area which elevates the 2K passing game. It's much easier to throw different kinds of passes. There are several things at work- the distinctions between quarterbacks are better, the distinctions between hard and soft passes is better, the spacing of the defensive players is better and the reaction times are more realistic. In Madden, you get a lot of dead zones because defenders can cover a hugely unrealistic amount of space and make plays on the ball. I've seen Ray Lewis facing the wrong way manage to warp three yards in the other direction the moment the ball left a quarterback's hand to make a play on the ball. When you see things like that, you simply lose faith in your ability to complete passes to certain portions of the field. (It may also be a question of player proportion- I've always thought the next-gen fields were too narrow. That said, they look better in early vids I've seen of '09.) In 2K8, it's entirely possible to drop passes behind the linebackers and in front of the safeties, or to throw deep balls with touch (aiming for the outside shoulder, etc, etc.).
3) Defensive reaction
Quite simply, the AI in Madden cheats. When you go into replay mode, you can see almost every defender immediately move towards the ball from the moment it leaves the quarterback's hand (or even a split-second before). There doesn't seem to be any requirement for a defender to actually see what is going on; he can be running with his back turned to the ball but knows immediately where it is going and reacts accordingly. Now I understand that this is going to happen in the NFL from time to time- you see guys like Assante Samuel bait quarterbacks by appearing to be in man coverage before breaking into zone and intercepting the ball. But it happens on every play in Madden, and it's not just corners, either. Defender awareness should be a function of their responsibility in the defensive play, their body and head positioning, the amount of time the play takes (defenders should be reading the quarterback drops) and their awareness ratings. And part of the fix needs to be in the animations, so that you can see where the defender's head is and can figure out exactly when they are able to pick up the ball. The pursuit angles also need to be reworked, particularly for the safeties, but that's a story for another day.
I could care less about hand towels or "emotion" or any of the other things that a lot of people harp on, but I'm not able to suspend disbelief when I see things that simply shouldn't be happening on the field.
Ian,
It's nice to see you on here providing such in-depth support of your product. I've spent a fair amount of time under the hood as it were (which is to say in instant replay mode) with both Madden '08 and APF 2K8, and it's really allowed me to pinpoint the areas where I think the 2K engine distances itself from the shared EA engine. As I would like to see EA's games get better, I'm curious as to how you would address these issues:
1) The quality of player animations. I think this is really where EA went wrong in the next-gen with both the Madden and Live series- instead of concentrating on the quality of the animations, they put the graphical emphasis on the player models. As a result, the models are gorgeous, but they don't move well and, more importantly, they really don't interact well. A good example would be how the WR/DB play is on the line of scrimmage. In 2K8 (or NFL 2K5, for that matter), the wide receiver will put a move on to try and beat the corner at the line, while the corner will try to knock the receiver off their timing early (and Bump Master corners are particularly effective at it). You see corners shading inside or outside, backpedaling, moving into trail position, etc, etc. Meanwhile, the receivers run very crisp routes and make sudden plants on their breaks to separate. When you watch pass plays in Madden 08 and move the camera over to the WR/DB play, you get...nothing. Literally. The receiver starts to run his route and the corner basically floats around for the first second or two before moving to cover the receiver, and even then, you never get the sense that the corner is playing any kind of specific technique. That's part of what makes the passing game frustrating- you can't read the corner play and make your decisions.
There are similar animation problems on the line. Quite simply, you never see offensive linemen apply double teams, or even move over to help the guy next to him by delivering a blow while still looking out for other defenders. A linemen is either engaged or he isn't, and if he isn't, he's standing around with his arms in the air doing nothing. Pass protection becomes like a kung fu movie, where if the defender beats the first man, the second man will then step up and try to block him, but it's all 1-on-1 interactions and it really doesn't work like an actual NFL pocket. And because there is a lack of effective animation between the OL and DL, you never really get a true pocket, as the DEs are suction blocked into the linemen one or two yards past the line of scrimmage. You never see OL-DL engagement where the defensive player isn't held up but is simply pushed upfield. In 2K8, the quality of the animations allows you to play as a defensive end and set up the offensive tackle with a variety of moves, but the suction blocking makes those much less effective in Madden and makes playing along the line much less interesting. It also leads to the absolute no-no of 20 step dropbacks, which are the absolute bane of my existence.
The quarterback animations are another area where there is a huge difference between Madden and 2K8. I think part of this is a result of 2K deciding to utilize an autodrop, and frankly it's a decision I think is the correct one. I'm all for having complete and fluid player control- I thought it was a strength of the Madden games on the Xbox. But the passing game is predicated on timing, and it makes sense to have the quarterback make 3, 5 and 7 step drops according to the routes in question. The quality of the drop animations, of the quarterback movements and of the different deliveries are much, much better in 2K8. Not only do you get noticeably different velocity and power depending on who the quarterbacks are, you get different deliveries.
2) The passing physics
This is another area which elevates the 2K passing game. It's much easier to throw different kinds of passes. There are several things at work- the distinctions between quarterbacks are better, the distinctions between hard and soft passes is better, the spacing of the defensive players is better and the reaction times are more realistic. In Madden, you get a lot of dead zones because defenders can cover a hugely unrealistic amount of space and make plays on the ball. I've seen Ray Lewis facing the wrong way manage to warp three yards in the other direction the moment the ball left a quarterback's hand to make a play on the ball. When you see things like that, you simply lose faith in your ability to complete passes to certain portions of the field. (It may also be a question of player proportion- I've always thought the next-gen fields were too narrow. That said, they look better in early vids I've seen of '09.) In 2K8, it's entirely possible to drop passes behind the linebackers and in front of the safeties, or to throw deep balls with touch (aiming for the outside shoulder, etc, etc.).
3) Defensive reaction
Quite simply, the AI in Madden cheats. When you go into replay mode, you can see almost every defender immediately move towards the ball from the moment it leaves the quarterback's hand (or even a split-second before). There doesn't seem to be any requirement for a defender to actually see what is going on; he can be running with his back turned to the ball but knows immediately where it is going and reacts accordingly. Now I understand that this is going to happen in the NFL from time to time- you see guys like Assante Samuel bait quarterbacks by appearing to be in man coverage before breaking into zone and intercepting the ball. But it happens on every play in Madden, and it's not just corners, either. Defender awareness should be a function of their responsibility in the defensive play, their body and head positioning, the amount of time the play takes (defenders should be reading the quarterback drops) and their awareness ratings. And part of the fix needs to be in the animations, so that you can see where the defender's head is and can figure out exactly when they are able to pick up the ball. The pursuit angles also need to be reworked, particularly for the safeties, but that's a story for another day.
I could care less about hand towels or "emotion" or any of the other things that a lot of people harp on, but I'm not able to suspend disbelief when I see things that simply shouldn't be happening on the field.
This was his response:
Great post - it's good to see someone doing pretty much the same analysis that I do. For 2 and 3, I can definitely say that we've improved those aspects for Madden NFL 09 substantially. We made some pretty huge strides in tuning passing - making it so it was much more automatic to throw where you like (like figuring out that there is a Linebacker in the way, and your lob really needs to lead your receiver upfield more instead of just a slow lob), and we also addressed defensive reaction times in a major way so it is much more realistic (based off of the Play Recognition rating).
As for the passing physics themselves, I always thought 2k's passing was a little *floaty*...did you get that impression too? Like the ball went slower than a real life ball could actually travel?
And as for animation quality, yeah I'd say you're spot on there. We were not adequately prepared for the next-gen transition and brand new animation technology, so we have been fighting an up-hill climb ever since. 2k8 obviously went with their exact same animation system from current-gen so they didn't have to start over, they were able to make little tweaks here and there.
Luckily we made some major strides in 09 with defensive pre-play shading, and all of our route cut animations were fixed to actually work correctly (they were pretty much broken last year), but even still, I think next year this would be a good area to really do some interactive 2-man looping/steering/hand-fighting animation stuff for DB's and WR's. We've had a design since like 2005 to get a similar system to what FIFA has where two players are "jockey-ing" for position as they run down a ball, and it just hasn't made the cut yet. I really hope to do this next year though.
Great post - it's good to see someone doing pretty much the same analysis that I do. For 2 and 3, I can definitely say that we've improved those aspects for Madden NFL 09 substantially. We made some pretty huge strides in tuning passing - making it so it was much more automatic to throw where you like (like figuring out that there is a Linebacker in the way, and your lob really needs to lead your receiver upfield more instead of just a slow lob), and we also addressed defensive reaction times in a major way so it is much more realistic (based off of the Play Recognition rating).
As for the passing physics themselves, I always thought 2k's passing was a little *floaty*...did you get that impression too? Like the ball went slower than a real life ball could actually travel?
And as for animation quality, yeah I'd say you're spot on there. We were not adequately prepared for the next-gen transition and brand new animation technology, so we have been fighting an up-hill climb ever since. 2k8 obviously went with their exact same animation system from current-gen so they didn't have to start over, they were able to make little tweaks here and there.
Luckily we made some major strides in 09 with defensive pre-play shading, and all of our route cut animations were fixed to actually work correctly (they were pretty much broken last year), but even still, I think next year this would be a good area to really do some interactive 2-man looping/steering/hand-fighting animation stuff for DB's and WR's. We've had a design since like 2005 to get a similar system to what FIFA has where two players are "jockey-ing" for position as they run down a ball, and it just hasn't made the cut yet. I really hope to do this next year though.
I am actually looking forward to this years Madden as I have skipped over it the last two years even though I really liked the gameplay of last years demo. I've been playing NFL2k5 with 07 rosters and that game plays and looks so beautiful on the 360 so I'll have it to fall back on if Madden is a flop this year.
It's really hard to hate this Ian Cummings guy.
But fraq either they continue to spend time on useless features or the suits really frak them up every year with stupid things to put in their games.
I don't know which. I think they should just scrap madden and spend all their time on FIFA.
But fraq either they continue to spend time on useless features or the suits really frak them up every year with stupid things to put in their games.
I don't know which. I think they should just scrap madden and spend all their time on FIFA.
[url=http://sensiblecoasters.wordpress.com/][b]Sensible Coasters - A critique of sports games, reviews, gaming sites and news. Questionably Proofread![/b][/url]
It's hard to believe these guys. We've been down this road so much , especially with madden, where you will have producers and such give these extravagant interviews to appease the hardcore gamers. Then when the game comes out, half the things they say are true. I don't believe any of this , since it's all PR.
I doubt it has to do with transition to a new generation.
They've had issues like this last gen. One year they would have hyperaware, hyperactive (super leaps, warping to catch up, etc.) defenders, then they'd tone it down the next year and then the same problems would creep back in a couple of years.
Same thing with jetpacking in 08 and they're already saying it's toned down in 09. Suction-blocking would also go back and forth, between Madden and NCAA. In 2006 or 2007, people would spread the DL and use a fan stunt and most DEs would run right around the T. So they again toned it down. They probably don't know how to make DE/T interaction work without suction-blocking. All they can do is change when or how often it engages.
I wouldn't put it past EA to cynically swing from one extreme to another to provide enough variation in "gameplay" to keep sales going.
That guy and other EA guys have been blogging and posting on several boards this year. Are they doing damage control ?
I think it was Cummings who had a thread on the EA boards about GTA4 and people asked him about endorphine and physics-based modeling. You get the impression that they're not changing their engine and animation system any time soon.
They've had issues like this last gen. One year they would have hyperaware, hyperactive (super leaps, warping to catch up, etc.) defenders, then they'd tone it down the next year and then the same problems would creep back in a couple of years.
Same thing with jetpacking in 08 and they're already saying it's toned down in 09. Suction-blocking would also go back and forth, between Madden and NCAA. In 2006 or 2007, people would spread the DL and use a fan stunt and most DEs would run right around the T. So they again toned it down. They probably don't know how to make DE/T interaction work without suction-blocking. All they can do is change when or how often it engages.
I wouldn't put it past EA to cynically swing from one extreme to another to provide enough variation in "gameplay" to keep sales going.
That guy and other EA guys have been blogging and posting on several boards this year. Are they doing damage control ?
I think it was Cummings who had a thread on the EA boards about GTA4 and people asked him about endorphine and physics-based modeling. You get the impression that they're not changing their engine and animation system any time soon.
I didnt see this posted http://youtube.com/watch?v=LA3OeggD858
but none of that would make me want to but '09 any more then i did before.
but none of that would make me want to but '09 any more then i did before.
I saw it yesterday and my first reaction to it was ..."fluff". It's all marketing and hype to get you to buy a product that's changed very little from the previous year and the year before that.kicko wrote:I didnt see this posted http://youtube.com/watch?v=LA3OeggD858
but none of that would make me want to but '09 any more then i did before.
There are some better videos now posted on EA's site. It does look to be much improved over last year's (which isn't saying anything), but in one of the videos, "LT v. The Bengals Defense," you can clearly see at least 3 different OL/DL engaged in the exact same "dance hold" stance that has existed in Madden since the beginning of time. I'm tempted to give Madden a try this year, for the first time in a long time, but the OL/DL interaction and the lack of more than one playable camera angle may have me renting (or buying used) instead of buying new.
For the first time ever I think I'll pass.
Like someone else mentioned, since moving to next generation hardware they haven't got it right. I was willing to give them a "Madden Mulligan" in years 1 and even 2, but 3 years in and Madden 08 was the best they could do?
This is a stale franchise and I certainly don't think the exclusive deal the obtained with the NFL helped. If anything I might wait a few months after release and purchase the PC version - it seems like a superior product to the console versions anyway.
Like someone else mentioned, since moving to next generation hardware they haven't got it right. I was willing to give them a "Madden Mulligan" in years 1 and even 2, but 3 years in and Madden 08 was the best they could do?
This is a stale franchise and I certainly don't think the exclusive deal the obtained with the NFL helped. If anything I might wait a few months after release and purchase the PC version - it seems like a superior product to the console versions anyway.
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DivotMaker
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I skipped Madden for the first time last year as well as NCAA. AS Divot said no Madden for the PC and eventually EA plans on dropping the PC sports line.eman wrote:For the first time ever I think I'll pass.
If anything I might wait a few months after release and purchase the PC version - it seems like a superior product to the console versions anyway.
I don't really see a good or worthy progression with this sports franchise other than fluff. I plan on playing Madden 07 because there's little difference between it and '08 and i'll go out on a limb and say '09 as well. The game will basically play the same.
The game i'm really excited about that has no connection to the NFL is Blitz The League II. The last one was a blast to play even though it was seriously over the top action. At least I know what i'll be getting with BTL 2.
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DivotMaker
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No...not exactly. They are formulating a strategy on how to improve the PC versions of their sports games while minimizing the impact of cross-platform development issues. This is what I am hearing from the TW Development team.....Rodster wrote:AS Divot said no Madden for the PC and eventually EA plans on dropping the PC sports line.
Sorry that's how I understood it from what the news sites were saying. Maybe they got it wrong and hopefully they did.DivotMaker wrote:No...not exactly. They are formulating a strategy on how to improve the PC versions of their sports games while minimizing the impact of cross-platform development issues. This is what I am hearing from the TW Development team.....Rodster wrote:AS Divot said no Madden for the PC and eventually EA plans on dropping the PC sports line.
Do you know or better yet can you find out what titles will stay on the PC? So am I to interpret that we may see Madden back on the PC? I find it ironic that their flagship title gets bumped off the PC while Hockey and the NBA have not been cut. That is strange.
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DivotMaker
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The news sites did not get it wrong per se, but EA has told me that they are not done with the PC as a gaming platform for their sports titles. The only 09 titles I am fully aware of that are not going be released are Madden and Tiger. My guess is that none of them will be released this year, but I cannot confirm that at this point.Rodster wrote:Sorry that's how I understood it from what the news sites were saying. Maybe they got it wrong and hopefully they did.
Do you know or better yet can you find out what titles will stay on the PC? So am I to interpret that we may see Madden back on the PC? I find it ironic that their flagship title gets bumped off the PC while Hockey and the NBA have not been cut. That is strange.
At the end of the day, EA has neglected the PC platform each year for a number of years and concentrated on the console versions. They also have cut back on features (TW for sure) that has turned the PC community off and yet they wonder why the PC versions are not making enough revenue and profit to keep developing. They are trying to figure out how to minimize development costs across all platforms to maximize profitability and the cancelling the PC versions will help this achieve this in the short term. In the long term, they see the PC as a viable platform, but they have to find a way to make each successive version a more viable and compelling game than the previous year and we all know how EA struggles with this....what I see is EA working to port the 360/PS3 versions of each sports game to the PC when they feel like the average PC user base has the PC hardware to run the games that are ported.
They probably got the end zone dance thing from fans on web forums. People ask for ridiculous things like the right equipment, perfect grass, etc.
Those kinds of things are easy to implement compared to fundamentally changing the engine.
Oh and with or without exclusivity, they'd still sell millions, unless TakeTwo was willing to bleed EA and itself, selling NFL2K at $20 for at least 5 years.
So they won't scrap that engine when they can sell millions, especially also a lot of units on thing like handhelds.
In every area that people complain about they can tweak. They may be able to reduce the incidence of suction blocking but they can't get rid of it.
So little changes to all these problem areas lead to an aggregate where the game does play differently. One year, more problems with defense, next year more problems with offense.
As publisher, this is just enough to help sell the product every year. As consumer, you try to figure out how they tuned different areas and you try to adapt your game to it. If you like NFL and gaming enough, people will live with it.
Those kinds of things are easy to implement compared to fundamentally changing the engine.
Oh and with or without exclusivity, they'd still sell millions, unless TakeTwo was willing to bleed EA and itself, selling NFL2K at $20 for at least 5 years.
So they won't scrap that engine when they can sell millions, especially also a lot of units on thing like handhelds.
In every area that people complain about they can tweak. They may be able to reduce the incidence of suction blocking but they can't get rid of it.
So little changes to all these problem areas lead to an aggregate where the game does play differently. One year, more problems with defense, next year more problems with offense.
As publisher, this is just enough to help sell the product every year. As consumer, you try to figure out how they tuned different areas and you try to adapt your game to it. If you like NFL and gaming enough, people will live with it.
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Gameplay. I give EA credit- the graphics are much better, even though the individual changes are fairly subtle.
Gameplay. I give EA credit- the graphics are much better, even though the individual changes are fairly subtle.