OT: This is really getting crazy.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:58 pm

EZSnappin wrote:However, someone like me blanches when I see a nativity scene on public land - get your religion out of our common space! It is all about respect. Do as you will but keep it out of my face, especially in places that aren't yours alone.

You "blanche" when you see a nativity scene? Are you KIDDING ME? I find statements like that to be simply unbelievable. If it is "all about respect", then those who put out nativity scenes have just as much right to put them out as you do to ignore them. Respect has to run both ways...PERIOD.

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:26 pm

DivotMaker wrote:
EZSnappin wrote:However, someone like me blanches when I see a nativity scene on public land - get your religion out of our common space! It is all about respect. Do as you will but keep it out of my face, especially in places that aren't yours alone.
You "blanche" when you see a nativity scene? Are you KIDDING ME? I find statements like that to be simply unbelievable. If it is "all about respect", then those who put out nativity scenes have just as much right to put them out as you do to ignore them. Respect has to run both ways...PERIOD.

I see no reason for religious storytelling on public property. I don't care what you put on your lawn (though some of these inflatable things have gotten out of hand) nor do I care what churches place on their property. There is a place for all things, but I don't see the place of religion in front of my town hall. If that is disrespect to you than you have some serious issues.

pk500 wrote:Do you object to decorated Christmas trees on public land, too? After all, they're a symbol of Christmas, a Christian holiday. There are decorated trees in most Christian churches during the Christmas season, so they can easily be interpreted as religious symbols.

Is it offensive for a service member to make the sign of the cross while preparing to parachute from a military plane into a hot zone? Hey, a taxpayer who is an atheist probably helped pay for that plane. It's public property, and religion and religious symbols shouldn't be allowed there, right?

No problem with Christmas trees. I see them as secular, and I have no problem with former St. Nick either. Christmas is sadly more product than religion nowadays. I don't have issues with the Easter bunny either, in case that was the next inquiry.

No problem with your hypothetical parachuter. It is his religion, and I don't have any issue with anyone's beliefs or practice thereof. Now, if he was blocking the door and making people pray before they jumped I'd be hypothetically pissed.

I'm not a crusader people. I just think we as a society have way to many things which give a preference to one belief system over another, and that moving religion back into the private vs. the public sphere is only a good thing. There will still be plenty of places to celebrate your beliefs if you take them off the village green.

LAking · Post by **LAking** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:41 pm

DING DING DING! We have a winner!

JRod wrote:Well back to the topic at hand...

The ceremony of flag folding was accompanied with the recitation that had references to religion?

This isn't the pussification of America is the f***in lack of common sense that is lost on people on this board and most of America.

If this process was done without the permission of the family that that's not acceptable.

Here's what should be done.

When there's a request for a flag ceremony the family is given a choice of this recitation or not. If the family doesn't want it the people performing the ceremony stay silent and just fold the flag.

s*** guys it's really not that hard. Give families choice and all the complaints go away. If you want it fine, if you don't fine. Instead this isn't PC gone too far, its lack of common sense.

Maybe this is offensive to some people, I don't know. I could understand if a Native American veteran passed away how this might not suit his beliefs. But that's a choice not for veterans groups, the ACLU, or the VA to make or really any of you. The family or even the veteran while alive should be given of the choice if this is to be apart of the flag presenation.

LAking · Post by **LAking** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:51 pm

n several schools across the country, Muslims are being allowed prayer time. Rooms are set aside for this purpose and students are sometimes excused from class to attend prayers.
Keep in mind that this is, so far, only for Muslims.
Meanwhile, Christian prayer has been abolished from schools and school sponsored events across the country.
One more example of political correctness run amock.

c'mon, you do realize that for a devout Muslim you are REQUIRED to pray, what is it, 3 times a day? To not let them do that is the equivalent of forcing a Christian to work on Christmas, or making a Jew to eat leavened bread during Passover. Were talking a few minutes for each prayer. I'm sure you've been led to believe that it's something much bigger, but in reality it's not. It's not that the school is sponsoring their religion, it's that they are allowing them to practice. It's a perfect example of freedom to practice religion.

And like another poster said, it is a good democratic government's job to protect the minority. Leaving everything up to what the majority wants is the exact reason why Jim Crow laws survived in the south for so long. You can't just let the majority decide everything without providing protection for the minority. That's called mob rule and it's ugly stuff.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:53 pm

I'm not in favor of intertwining church and state, in theory. But I don't have a huge problem with symbols such as nativity scenes.

I DO have a huge problem with prayer in public school. It should NEVER happen. Our schools have a role to educate children in reading, writing, math, science, etc., not religion.

If you want religion in your school, send your kid to private or religious school.

American schools have a hard enough time teaching kids the basics. They shouldn't spend a second on religion.

Many American parents rely on the school to raise their children too much as it is. They expect the school to educate and discipline their kids so they don't have to. By extension, some deadbeat parents probably think a prayer in school also will replace religious education at home and a place of worship, too.

When I see people screaming that prayer should be allowed in public schools, I often sit back and think, "How many of you lunatics go to church regularly?"

Take care,
PK

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:55 pm

LAking wrote:
n several schools across the country, Muslims are being allowed prayer time. Rooms are set aside for this purpose and students are sometimes excused from class to attend prayers.
Keep in mind that this is, so far, only for Muslims.
Meanwhile, Christian prayer has been abolished from schools and school sponsored events across the country.
One more example of political correctness run amock.
c'mon, you do realize that for a devout Muslim you are REQUIRED to pray, what is it, 3 times a day? To not let them do that is the equivalent of forcing a Christian to work on Christmas, or making a Jew to eat leavened bread during Passover. Were talking a few minutes for each prayer. I'm sure you've been led to believe that it's something much bigger, but in reality it's not. It's not that the school is sponsoring their religion, it's that they are allowing them to practice. It's a perfect example of freedom to practice religion.

And like another poster said, it is a good democratic government's job to protect the minority. Leaving everything up to what the majority wants is the exact reason why Jim Crow laws survived in the south for so long. You can't just let the majority decide everything without providing protection for the minority. That's called mob rule and it's ugly stuff.

Yeah I realize they are required to pray 5 times a day. I have spent about 6 years in Muslim countries. I am not saying they can't pray. I don't give a f*** what they do as long as they stay to themselves. So when I go to my hometown I don't want to hear calls to prayer on a loudspeaker. It's Detroit, not Mogadishu.

And my point is if a Christian church did that people would not tolerate it for a second. If Christian kids wanted to pray 5 times a day would they be given a special room and a hall pass to do so. I don't think so.

Freedom to practice what religion? All or just some?

I haven't been led to believe anything is bigger than what it is.Contrary to your belief,blacks like me thank God majority rules. Thats why Jim Crow doesn't exist today. But then again my black father is 81 and lived through that ugly time. Maybe he was led to believe it was something else.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:03 pm

JRod wrote:Well back to the topic at hand...

The ceremony of flag folding was accompanied with the recitation that had references to religion?

This isn't the pussification of America is the f***in lack of common sense that is lost on people on this board and most of America.

If this process was done without the permission of the family that that's not acceptable.

Here's what should be done.

When there's a request for a flag ceremony the family is given a choice of this recitation or not. If the family doesn't want it the people performing the ceremony stay silent and just fold the flag.

s*** guys it's really not that hard. Give families choice and all the complaints go away. If you want it fine, if you don't fine. Instead this isn't PC gone too far, its lack of common sense.

Maybe this is offensive to some people, I don't know. I could understand if a Native American veteran passed away how this might not suit his beliefs. But that's a choice not for veterans groups, the ACLU, or the VA to make or really any of you. The family or even the veteran while alive should be given of the choice if this is to be apart of the flag presenation.

They are given the choice. If they opt for a military burial(Taxpayer's expense) it's part of the ceremony. Period. Every soldier knows that. If they have a problem with it, then the soldier or his family make plans with a civilian funeral home and pick up the tab. End of story.

ProvoAnC · Post by **ProvoAnC** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:17 pm

LAking wrote:
c'mon, you do realize that for a devout Muslim you are REQUIRED to pray, what is it, 3 times a day? To not let them do that is the equivalent of forcing a Christian to work on Christmas, or making a Jew to eat leavened bread during Passover.

Really? I have to work on Christmas and have worked most every other holiday for the past 7 years. Last I checked I don't get moose-limb holidays off, buy they get "our" holidays off. Its not the same thing at all.

This post has gone way off topic anyways so here goes:

Did we forget we're at war? Maybe we should worry more about shooting smelly bearded men in the face and less on hurting some moose-limb's feelings.

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:22 pm

pk500 wrote:I DO have a huge problem with prayer in public school. It should NEVER happen. Our schools have a role to educate children in reading, writing, math, science, etc., not religion.

And here I thought we weren't going to agree on anything in this thread.

Huzzahs for sanity!

Post by **Jared** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:36 pm

First of all, none of these things, even IF taken at face value are dismantling Judeo-Christian traditions, eating away at the fabric of our nation, removing Christianity from our lives, shovelling the purity and value of Islam, etc. What these things are doing are making a clear separation of church and state. Public funds should not be used for promoting religion, plain and simple. If you open public money to fund a Nativity scene, then public money should also be able to fund a Ramadan scene, a Kwanzaa scene, a Buddha scene, a God is dead scene, etc. But those things are absurd, because those are all examples of the government promoting religion.

Same thing with the Ten Commandments...it's an important document, but it's also a religious document. Should we have the Koran on display in the courthouse?

And yes, people filed a lawsuit about "under God" in the pledge...and they lost. Same thing with having In God We Trust on money...these things are all considered ok because (I think) they don't promote a particular religion (again, my memory of the logic of the "under God" court case is iffy.)

As for Rodster's post, the only airport that I've read about that's had foot baths installed was Kansas City, which was funded by the Muslims themselves. And as for the schools, I think this is under debate precisely because it's debatable whether it crosses church/state lines. Does a footbath promote religion? Difficult question to address...

As for Muslim prayer rooms, I believe that many universities are against this because of church/state issues. I couldn't find any public universities that have installed Muslim prayer rooms (although there are private ones that had). And public schools shouldn't be installing prayer rooms, just as public high schools shouldn't be having prayer groups sponsored by the school.

Nearly all of the things listed by PK and Rodster are church/state issues. And on this, the government should try and be as consistent as possible. Public money shouldn't fund religion or religious displays. But people should be free to practice whatever they want. All this worry about Muslims being somehow pushed as great and Christianity being persecuted is absurd.

Post by **Jared** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:53 pm

Oh, and a few more things. Just looked it up, and according to a news article, "The U.S. Department of Education's guidelines say students can pray at public schools during school hours by themselves or with fellow students. However, Šteachers and other public school officials may not lead their classes in prayer, devotional readings from the Bible or other religious activities."

My guess is that the San Diego school thing (with the Muslim prayer) won't be allowed ton continue if it goes to court, because it disrupts the school schedule too much and would likely violate church/state separation principles.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:11 pm

ProvoAnC wrote:
LAking wrote:
c'mon, you do realize that for a devout Muslim you are REQUIRED to pray, what is it, 3 times a day? To not let them do that is the equivalent of forcing a Christian to work on Christmas, or making a Jew to eat leavened bread during Passover.
Really? I have to work on Christmas and have worked most every other holiday for the past 7 years. Last I checked I don't get moose-limb holidays off, buy they get "our" holidays off. Its not the same thing at all.

This post has gone way off topic anyways so here goes:

Did we forget we're at war? Maybe we should worry more about shooting smelly bearded men in the face and less on hurting some moose-limb's feelings.

I worked New years and Xmas every year between the ages 15 and 20 and that sucked. There should be a law

The reason that seperation of church and state was created was to protect religion from the government not the other way around....No its used to stifle freedom of religion at every turn. Seems to me something has really gone s*** wrong....

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:29 pm

Hey, EZ...I 'blanche' at your 'blanche'...so where does that leave us?

Jared:

Where, oh where, might we have gotten the idea that stealing is wrong, that lying under oath is wrong, that murder is wrong, that adultery is wrong?

It didn't just fly in from thin air, and we surely aren't smart enough to have concocted it on our own. In every place around the world, the above mentioned crimes are crimes, just the same, despite cultural and political differences. The laws against such crimes came from________??

"You shall not steal"
"You shall not bear false witness"
"You shall not murder"
"You shall not not covet your neighbor's wife"

It's the backbone of all basic legal documents. It's a legal document. Does it HAVE to be on a 5000 pound rock in the rotunda of an Alabama courthouse? No. But is it just as valid as any other legal document? You betcha. It is the basis for most all the others.

If we live in a nation where majority rules, then dammit, majority rules. We're increasingly a nation where minority rules, and the smaller the minority, the greater the rule.

I like the 'pussification' word-think it describes it perfectly. We somehow think that we today are more intelligent, more 'enlightened' (a spiritual idea), more 'tolerant'. Actually, we ARE more tolerant, but that's not a virtue...it's a vice. Hell, we'll tolerate damn near everything nowadays, and woe be to the one who won't tolerate it. Ironically, 'live and let live' only applies to a certain slant in this country. The ones who would trumpet tolerance are by far the most intolerant.

As Doc Holliday would put it, 'My hypocrisy knows no bounds."

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:34 pm

XXXIV wrote:
ProvoAnC wrote:
LAking wrote:
c'mon, you do realize that for a devout Muslim you are REQUIRED to pray, what is it, 3 times a day? To not let them do that is the equivalent of forcing a Christian to work on Christmas, or making a Jew to eat leavened bread during Passover.
Really? I have to work on Christmas and have worked most every other holiday for the past 7 years. Last I checked I don't get moose-limb holidays off, buy they get "our" holidays off. Its not the same thing at all.

This post has gone way off topic anyways so here goes:

Did we forget we're at war? Maybe we should worry more about shooting smelly bearded men in the face and less on hurting some moose-limb's feelings.
I worked New years and Xmas every year between the ages 15 and 20 and that sucked. There should be a law

The reason that seperation of church and state was created was to protect religion from the government not the other way around....No its used to stifle freedom of religion at every turn. Seems to me something has really gone s*** wrong....

Oh, god, don't bring up separation of church and state, bro...although you are right about what the idea of the 'Congress shall make no law respecting religion, NOR RESTRICTING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.

But as anyone who can read knows, the separation thing ain't in any legal document of our founding fathers. Just one letter to a group of baptists, assuring them that the new government won't be putting their hands into the holy cookie jar. That's it. The rest is a total and complete fabrication, especially how it's 'interpreted' these days...

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:39 pm

tealboy03 wrote:
XXXIV wrote:
ProvoAnC wrote: Really? I have to work on Christmas and have worked most every other holiday for the past 7 years. Last I checked I don't get moose-limb holidays off, buy they get "our" holidays off. Its not the same thing at all.

This post has gone way off topic anyways so here goes:

Did we forget we're at war? Maybe we should worry more about shooting smelly bearded men in the face and less on hurting some moose-limb's feelings.
I worked New years and Xmas every year between the ages 15 and 20 and that sucked. There should be a law

The reason that seperation of church and state was created was to protect religion from the government not the other way around....No its used to stifle freedom of religion at every turn. Seems to me something has really gone s*** wrong....

Oh, god, don't bring up separation of church and state, bro...although you are right about what the idea of the 'Congress shall make no law respecting religion, NOR RESTRICTING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.

But as anyone who can read knows, the separation thing ain't in any legal document of our founding fathers. Just one letter to a group of baptists, assuring them that the new government won't be putting their hands into the holy cookie jar. That's it. The rest is a total and complete fabrication, especially how it's 'interpreted' these days...

I understand ...Im just saying its being twisted to no end.

Lets talk about the two greatest atheistic states of the 20th century. Nazi Germany and Communist Russia. How did that work out for em?
How many people were murdered by these governments?...20-30 40 million?

Myself?...Im not very religious. I just believe in letting people belive in whatever God they want to believe in.

Edit: BTW I love the Doc Holiday reference

Post by **Jared** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:23 pm

tealboy03 wrote: Jared:

Where, oh where, might we have gotten the idea that stealing is wrong, that lying under oath is wrong, that murder is wrong, that adultery is wrong?

It didn't just fly in from thin air, and we surely aren't smart enough to have concocted it on our own. In every place around the world, the above mentioned crimes are crimes, just the same, despite cultural and political differences. The laws against such crimes came from________??

I will not argue that the Ten Commandments isn't an important legal document. However, it is also a religious document for things that are not part of our law, as easily demonstrated by the fact that there's a law about keeping the Sabbath, and a law about idolatry, and a law about not having "any other gods before ME", etc. And being a religious document, it shouldn't be part of a federal display. Unless you want the Koran or any other legal/religious document displayed in a courthouse.

But as anyone who can read knows, the separation thing ain't in any legal document of our founding fathers. Just one letter to a group of baptists, assuring them that the new government won't be putting their hands into the holy cookie jar. That's it. The rest is a total and complete fabrication, especially how it's 'interpreted' these days...

The phrase "separation of church and state" isn't in the Constitution, but the concept clearly is. (Other phrases aren't in the constitution such as right to a "fair trial", but that concept is clearly there.) Furthermore, this concept of separation of church and state has been clarified in various Supreme Court rulings over the history of the country. If you think it's a complete and total fabrication, I suggest you read the Supreme Court decisions that have upheld this principle (unless you're also against Marbury v. Madison).

And it's a very good principle. I am suprised that keeping the federal gov't completely out of religion is such a big problem with some of you. I'm fairly sure that you don't want the gov't to pay for mosques or Muslim displays, or to promote these things. Or having the government promote Catholicism but not Protestantism, depending on the majority at the time. What's wrong with strict government neutrality with regards to religion?

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:45 am

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07325/835642-85.stm

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:32 pm

tealboy03 wrote: It didn't just fly in from thin air, and we surely aren't smart enough to have concocted it on our own. In every place around the world, the above mentioned crimes are crimes, just the same, despite cultural and political differences. The laws against such crimes came from________??

"You shall not steal"
"You shall not bear false witness"
"You shall not murder"
"You shall not not covet your neighbor's wife"

Adultery is not a crime in any Western society.

Neither is working on Sunday or messing around with idols.

The idea that humans wouldn't have been smart enough to come up with laws against immoral acts like murder unless your ficitional flying spaghetti monster (aka God) gave them the 10 commandments is laughable.

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:41 pm

Feanor wrote:
tealboy03 wrote: It didn't just fly in from thin air, and we surely aren't smart enough to have concocted it on our own. In every place around the world, the above mentioned crimes are crimes, just the same, despite cultural and political differences. The laws against such crimes came from________??

"You shall not steal"
"You shall not bear false witness"
"You shall not murder"
"You shall not not covet your neighbor's wife"
Adultery is not a crime in any Western society. Neither is working on Sunday or messing around with idols.

The idea that humans wouldn't have been smart enough to come up with laws against immoral acts like murder unless your ficitional flying spaghetti monster (aka God) gave them the 10 commandments is laughable.

You're grade school description of God as a 'fictional flying spaghetti monster' is what is laughable. Way to engage in a grownup discussion.

Question, Boner: Did I mention 'working on Sunday' (not a commandment, genius, but nice try), or idols? I don't believe I did. Adultery is grounds for divorce, no? A crime by any other name is still a crime. Is it criminal, however you want to define it, for a man to keep his dick planted in other women besides his wife, for a wife to whore herself out to anyone who gives her attention? Ask someone who's experienced it.

In any case, I don't know why I'm engaging in discussion with someone who thinks that his playground antics are somehow germane to any real dialogue...go play with your tinkertoys, junior...

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:55 pm

edited due to confusion....

Post by **Jared** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:59 pm

Teal,

You may not be aware of this, but the Flying Spaghetti Monster refers to a parody religion started by someone protesting the teaching of intelligent design in Kansas schools, and is part of the Russell's Teapot argument. If you are aware of this reference, then my apologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:06 pm

Jared wrote:Teal,

You may not be aware of this, but the Flying Spaghetti Monster refers to a parody religion started by someone protesting the teaching of intelligent design in Kansas schools, and is part of the Russell's Teapot argument. If you are aware of this reference, then my apologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Yeah, I'm aware of it, but I'm more aware of the context in which Feanor was using it, ie. in a smartass manner. And it doesn't make it any less juvenile...

Post by **Jared** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:13 pm

OK...just trying to be a peacemaker here...

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:20 pm

Jared wrote:OK...just trying to be a peacemaker here...

Yeah, I get that, and I appreciate it. But what I'd appreciate even more is more civility, and less of the sniping at others' beliefs. They don't affect my beliefs, understand...but they DO affect my blood pressure!

Leadfoot5 · Post by **Leadfoot5** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:47 pm

tealboy03 wrote: Jared:

Where, oh where, might we have gotten the idea that stealing is wrong, that lying under oath is wrong, that murder is wrong, that adultery is wrong?

It didn't just fly in from thin air, and we surely aren't smart enough to have concocted it on our own.

Teal/Others - Took some time to read this thread and being the fence-sitter that I usually am, I can appreciate everyone's viewpoint on the various issues being discussed, but I feel compelled to comment on Teal's argument that humans aren't smart enough to come up with these basic tenants of how to live a "good" existence.

I disagree with this completely. I feel that these arguments are used by organized religions to make us believe we'd all be "lost" without them. Today and since the beginning, organized religion has been about power and control, in my opinion.

Consider it my take on God and religion, but I believe that we are all created with an innate understanding of right and wrong, and good and evil. (Of course there are some people born with mental issues that can upset this balance) I don't need a book, a person, or a fear of a divine power to make me understand these things.

Of course, I'm also a raging hypocrite.

My children went to a private Lutheran school for a number of years, and my wife has asked if we could go to a live Nativity this Christmas.