OT: This is really getting crazy.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:04 am

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.c ... ran=112444

I am tired of political correctness. I tire of people who are in the tiniest of minorities on an issue getting their way because we live in a society that embraces diversity and tolerance for every fruitcake lifestyle and every little bitty feeling. I am tired of hearing of how a single person that is offended by some public display of religion manages to shut down a event enjoyed by thousands.

With that being said, can you believe a single complaint has forced the cancellation of a meaningful and sincere portion of the FUNERAL OF VETERANS? In a nutshell, an American flag has 13 folds. During veterans funerals the flag is folded and presented to the family. As the flag is folded, a particular recitation occurs explaining a meaning for each fold. You can read the link for details, but a couple of them refer to the Christian God and to the God of Abraham.

It shouldn’t surprise you that a single complaint came from Riverside, California during a veteran’s funeral, prompting the National Cemetery Administration to cancel the recitation during the flag folding. Heath Shuler (D-N.C.) is leading the charge to have this decision overturned. Good for him. Charlie Waters, parliamentarian for the American Legion of California, said he's advising memorial honor details to ignore the edict. Good for him too. If civil disobedience works for the left, maybe we should try it too.

This post isn’t about freedom of religion, although it is freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion that is mentioned in the Constitution. This post is about the freedom to be unshackled from the idiocy of people who are supposed to be adults in this country. There are too many people who use the wrong venues for shoving their political correctness and pansy-ass opinions on the rest of normal America.

Freedom is being able to bury my veteran father in the way I choose to do so, not the way some observer of the ceremony thinks I should.

To the childish person who has the audacity to b*tch, Guess what? When my father is buried underneath that flag the moment isn’t about YOU. It is about my mother and my brothers and sisters and mostly my father, and honoring the impact he has had on our lives. A black man serving his country since the 1940's. That wasn't easy. Needless to say he wasn't treated as an equal in the country he was fighting for. But he got it. He understood what this country was about and passed it on to his children.

No, I am wrong. It's not about my father,it's about you, it just isn’t about your needs or your feelings. It is about you having the right to express your pansy-ass opinion about the public display of religion because men like my father bled on the soil of more than one country to assure that you can do so. My father finds it hard to stand up from a chair sometimes because his knees are shot from humping machine guns up frozen Korean mountains. He has worn full dentures since the age of 24 because of a Chinese rifle butt being smashed on his face in the dead of night at a place called the Chosin Reservoir. He has a 30% hearing loss because of the explosions and artillery and gunfire for 14 months, plus another six in Vietnam. He earned FOUR purple hearts so your arrogant, self absorbed, lazy, pitiful, spineless ass can be so selfishly pathetic by forcing your absurd viewpoint on people who simply live their lives the way they want to live them without public statements or new conferences or 9th Circuit Court appeals.

Freedom is precious. Freedom is individual. Freedom is knowing that your sacrifices were not in vain. Freedom is knowing that there are always a few good men ready to pick up the flag and charge forward just as in decades past. Freedom is expressing your spirituality and using it to honor those who have sacrificed because of something larger than themselves.

There is freedom in knowing that I have served and fought for others to be free. I guess it is too much to expect that others appreciate their freedom by showing a little respect.

End of rant.

Post by **Jared** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:47 am

From reading the article, there doesn't seem to be anything in here about not allowing someone to read this in a funeral. The question seems to be whether it's appropriate for a federal employees to do so:

“It seemed inappropriate for federal employees to be the ones who actually read it,” Budahn said, so the VA sent word last month to cemetery directors warning them against doing so.

The agency has does not object if families wish to choose a relative or friend of the deceased veteran to read the script as the flag is being folded, Budahn said.

The VA agrees that religious observances are an important part of a funeral service, he said. “It’s just a question of who does them.”

Any veteran can have this read at their funeral, and the VA has no problems with that. There's no one stopping this, so I don't see how this is a freedom issue.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:59 am

Jared:

In the literal translation, you are correct. But in the figurative sense, Jack is spot-on.

This is a particularly mind-numbing example of how the political process and government in this country pander to the vast minority, afraid to offend anyone for fear of losing that precious vote.

There's absolutely no reason why a Federal employee shouldn't be able to read the script. The only reason is the scourge of political correctness that has polluted and softened this country so desperately in the last 10 to 15 years.

So, if a military man wants a fellow military man to read that script at his funeral, the Federal government says no? That's a top-level insult to a man or woman who has served -- and possibly bled for -- their country. Absolutely ridiculous.

I've said it once; I'm sure I'll say it many times again: The U.S. has become a nation of candy asses.

Take care,
PK

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:03 am

Jared wrote:From reading the article, there doesn't seem to be anything in here about not allowing someone to read this in a funeral. The question seems to be whether it's appropriate for a federal employees to do so:

“It seemed inappropriate for federal employees to be the ones who actually read it,” Budahn said, so the VA sent word last month to cemetery directors warning them against doing so.

The agency has does not object if families wish to choose a relative or friend of the deceased veteran to read the script as the flag is being folded, Budahn said.

The VA agrees that religious observances are an important part of a funeral service, he said. “It’s just a question of who does them.”
Any veteran can have this read at their funeral, and the VA has no problems with that. There's no one stopping this, so I don't see how this is a freedom issue.

http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stor ... a1f24.html

The issue has been resolved for now.

The federal government Tuesday stepped back from its ban prohibiting members of volunteer Memorial Honor Details from reciting a popular flag-folding ritual at military graveyards, including Riverside National Cemetery.

That is what was pissing me off.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:08 am

Looks like sanity prevailed, Jackdog. We'll see how long it lasts before one or two people with an agenda complain loud enough for the government to buckle.

Take care,
PK

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:11 am

pk500 wrote:Jared:

In the literal translation, you are correct. But in the figurative sense, Jack is spot-on.

This is a particularly mind-numbing example of how the political process and government in this country pander to the vast minority, afraid to offend anyone for fear of losing that precious vote.

There's absolutely no reason why a Federal employee shouldn't be able to read the script. The only reason is the scourge of political correctness that has polluted and softened this country so desperately in the last 10 to 15 years.

So, if a military man wants a fellow military man to read that script at his funeral, the Federal government says no? That's a top-level insult to a man or woman who has served -- and possibly bled for -- their country. Absolutely ridiculous.

I've said it once; I'm sure I'll say it many times again: The U.S. has become a nation of candy asses.

Take care,
PK

Exactly.

You know how many VA hospitals I visit every year. I see many WWII and Korean vets that don't have any family left to request this honor at the time of their death. They deserve it. This rant was about them.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:15 am

pk500 wrote:Looks like sanity prevailed, Jackdog. We'll see how long it lasts before one or two people with an agenda complain loud enough for the government to buckle.

Take care,
PK

Sadly,not long enough. I've talked to some guys this morning that say this is going to end up in court. God help us.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:29 am

Double post.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:31 am

pk500 wrote:
This is a particularly mind-numbing example of how the political process and government in this country pander to the vast minority, afraid to offend anyone for fear of losing that precious vote.

There's absolutely no reason why a Federal employee shouldn't be able to read the script. The only reason is the scourge of political correctness that has polluted and softened this country so desperately in the last 10 to 15 years.

So, if a military man wants a fellow military man to read that script at his funeral, the Federal government says no? That's a top-level insult to a man or woman who has served -- and possibly bled for -- their country. Absolutely ridiculous.

I've said it once; I'm sure I'll say it many times again: The U.S. has become a nation of candy asses.

Take care,
PK

I absolutely agree but I think this whole process of removing God from our lives and Country has been going on far longer than that i'm afraid all thanks to the coward politicians and the A.C.L.U. who have gone out of their way to neuter this Country. It's a sad state of affairs when we're constantly shoveled the purity and values of Islam while Christianity is aggressively removed from our lives. When foot bathes are installed in Airports and Universities but we are no longer allowed to say Merry Christmas, because that would be offensive to those who don't observe the holiday. Yeah right, a bunch of B.S. when the Empire State Building was lit up green in honor and observance of the last day of the Muslim holiday.

At this rate I expect in the next 20-30 years the top of the Capitol Building will be painted Gold so we'll make our Islam friends feel more welcome. I would be pissed if I were Jack's dad and risk my life and body parts for what I see this country being turned into as you rightly said candy asses although I could come up with a few better words.

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:38 am

Right on, Jack, bro. Political Correctness is a cancer that is eating away at the fabric of our nation. It has stolen the testicles from the men, and the backbone of the women of the world, and given them to every whiney-assed piss ant who doesn't play well with others, who wants THEIR way or they're taking they're ball and going home. No, that's not right. They're standing in the middle of the court, demanding their way, and, since there's is not a majority view, having their way given to them at the expense of the rest of society.

PC people can kiss my white, anglo-saxon, Christ following, unapologetic ass.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:53 am

Exactly, Rodster. This country features English as the predominant language and a Judeo-Christian tradition as its religious bedrock.

I have no problems with other languages or religions being practiced, but I certainly don't want our government to actively dismantle the language and religious traditions in the name of political correctness or at the possible risk of offending someone.

In other words, speak Spanish, French or whatever you want without persecution. But learn the native English tongue and use it, and don't expect everything to be translated into your native tongue.

In other words, practice Muslim, Buddhism or any religion -- or no religion -- without persecution. But don't expect the Judeo-Christian traditions of this nation to be dismantled just so you're not offended.

The concept of "melting pot" only goes so far.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:53 am

Double post. Sorry.

wpw721 · Post by **wpw721** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:05 pm

Great post Rodster I agree with you. Fortunately I live in a small town in the deep South so I really don't run into these issues first hand.

Diablo25 · Post by **Diablo25** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:42 pm

pk500 wrote: In other words, speak Spanish, French or whatever you want without persecution. But learn the native English tongue and use it, and don't expect everything to be translated into your native tongue.

In other words, practice Muslim, Buddhism or any religion -- or no religion -- without persecution. But don't expect the Judeo-Christian traditions of this nation to be dismantled just so you're not offended.

BINGO!

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:07 pm

pk500 wrote:
In other words, speak Spanish, French or whatever you want without persecution. But learn the native English tongue and use it, and don't expect everything to be translated into your native tongue.

In other words, practice Muslim, Buddhism or any religion -- or no religion -- without persecution. But don't expect the Judeo-Christian traditions of this nation to be dismantled just so you're not offended.

The concept of "melting pot" only goes so far.

Take care,
PK

YATZEE!!!!!!

LAking · Post by **LAking** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:11 pm

pk500 wrote:Exactly, Rodster. This country features English as the predominant language and a Judeo-Christian tradition as its religious bedrock.

I have no problems with other languages or religions being practiced, but I certainly don't want our government to actively dismantle the language and religious traditions in the name of political correctness or at the possible risk of offending someone.

In other words, speak Spanish, French or whatever you want without persecution. But learn the native English tongue and use it, and don't expect everything to be translated into your native tongue.

In other words, practice Muslim, Buddhism or any religion -- or no religion -- without persecution. But don't expect the Judeo-Christian traditions of this nation to be dismantled just so you're not offended.

The concept of "melting pot" only goes so far.

Take care,
PK

No one is dismantling Judeo-Christian traditions. Personally I think it's fine if federal employees recite this speech (not the right word?) as long as it's at the request of the family and not simply recited for every veterans funeral. That would be shoving Judeo-Christian traditions down others throats.

I find the over reaction in this thread just as bad as the overreaction to the ceremony. State your objections but please don't try to tell me this country is going down the tubes just because the occasional vocal minority protests something like this. The United States is one of the most religious and conservative western nations in the world. I assure you your traditions are safe.

Post by **Jared** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:24 pm

How on earth is the government dismantling Judeo-Christian traditions? How is the "fabric of our nation" being eaten away? How on Earth are we being "constantly shoveled the purity and value of Islam"? Or how is Christianity being "agressively removed from our lives"?

Please provide some evidence that these statements aren't just extreme hyperbole.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:25 pm

LAking wrote:I find the over reaction in this thread just as bad as the overreaction to the ceremony. State your objections but please don't try to tell me this country is going down the tubes just because the occasional vocal minority protests something like this. The United States is one of the most religious and conservative western nations in the world. I assure you your traditions are safe.

You're not seeing the forest through the trees. This country is going down the tubes because its elected leaders are pandering to and heeding special interests, whether its industry lobbyists or one or two people offended because God was cited in a military funeral.

The big problem with America is that the majority has nowhere near the power and influence it should have, for two reasons: money and political correctness.

Politicians are addicted to two things, money and votes. Pandering to the special interests keeps the money pump cranked, and political correctness ensures that as many of the all-important voting constituencies will tilt their way on Election Day.

A perfect example is taking place here in New York. Governor Elliot Spitzer is trying to ramrod an incredibly stupid idea to give illegal aliens N.Y. state driver's licenses despite disapproval from nearly 75 percent of the state's population and vehement opposition from within his own Democratic party.

Spitzer, who was elected on a platform of reform and listening to the people, is proving himself just as much of a ham-fisted servant to special interests as his Republican predecessor, George Pataki.

SEVENTY-FIVE percent of New York state residents don't want driver's licenses to be granted to illegals. Why can't Spitzer obey the majority's wishes?

Because he might lose minority votes and contributions, that's why. Political correctness run amok.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:32 pm

Jared wrote:How on earth is the government dismantling Judeo-Christian traditions? How is the "fabric of our nation" being eaten away? How on Earth are we being "constantly shoveled the purity and value of Islam"? Or how is Christianity being "agressively removed from our lives"?

Please provide some evidence that these statements aren't just extreme hyperbole.

-- Judges ordering Nativity scenes to be removed from towns during Christmas time.

-- A Ten Commandments plaque being removed from an Alabama court house.

-- The objection of having a Federal employee recite a speech containing the word "God" in it during a veteran's funeral.

-- Lawsuits filed against the term "under God" being used in the Pledge of Allegiance. The Supreme Court actually heard one of these suits in 2003.

-- A group is trying to get every plaque removed in the Grand Canyon that cites Psalms that praise the beauty of nature.

At this rate, it's only a matter of time until our currency reads, "IN (INSERT YOUR SUPREME BEING HERE) WE TRUST," or "IN BEN BERNANKE WE TRUST" if you're an atheist.

The Founding Fathers were wise enough to know that people could decide for themselves what religion they wished to practice while the majority's allegiance to a Judeo-Christian God could be recognized in official government documents and traditions. In other words, Adams, Jefferson and Madison didn't kiss the ass of special interests.

Thank GOD for that.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:53 pm

pk500 wrote:
Jared wrote:How on earth is the government dismantling Judeo-Christian traditions? How is the "fabric of our nation" being eaten away? How on Earth are we being "constantly shoveled the purity and value of Islam"? Or how is Christianity being "agressively removed from our lives"?

Please provide some evidence that these statements aren't just extreme hyperbole.
-- Judges ordering Nativity scenes to be removed from towns during Christmas time.

-- A Ten Commandments plaque being removed from an Alabama court house.

-- The objection of having a Federal employee recite a speech containing the word "God" in it during a veteran's funeral.

-- Lawsuits filed against the term "under God" being used in the Pledge of Allegiance. The Supreme Court actually heard one of these suits in 2003.

-- A group is trying to get every plaque removed in the Grand Canyon that cites Psalms that praise the beauty of nature.

At this rate, it's only a matter of time until our currency reads, "IN (INSERT YOUR SUPREME BEING HERE) WE TRUST," or "IN BEN BERNANKE WE TRUST" if you're an atheist.

The Founding Fathers were wise enough to know that people could decide for themselves what religion they wished to practice while the majority's allegiance to a Judeo-Christian God could be recognized in official government documents and traditions. In other words, Adams, Jefferson and Madison didn't kiss the ass of special interests.

Thank GOD for that.

Take care,
PK

* And Foot Bathes being installed around various major airports for muslim cab drives as well as in some universities funded with tax payer dollars.

* High School students who were not allowed to hold prayer sessions after school. All the while some universities are allowing for muslim prayer rooms on campus for muslim students.

* Our Florida Gov Charlie Crist is facing a lawsuit from the A.C.L.U. for accepting and posting on his door a Jewish religious symbol and has been ordered not to display it or he will face legal action by our friends at the ACLU.

I could go on but this stuff is happening so much now and is so frequent I pretty much ignore it. The US Govt has made no bones about moving itself towards a "new world order" that's been going on now for the last 30-35 years. Their aim is a secular progressive society with no one language, or borders.

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:02 pm

pk500 wrote:-- Judges ordering Nativity scenes to be removed from towns during Christmas time.

-- A Ten Commandments plaque being removed from an Alabama court house.

-- The objection of having a Federal employee recite a speech containing the word "God" in it during a veteran's funeral.

-- Lawsuits filed against the term "under God" being used in the Pledge of Allegiance. The Supreme Court actually heard one of these suits in 2003.

-- A group is trying to get every plaque removed in the Grand Canyon that cites Psalms that praise the beauty of nature.

At this rate, it's only a matter of time until our currency reads, "IN (INSERT YOUR SUPREME BEING HERE) WE TRUST," or "IN BEN BERNANKE WE TRUST" if you're an atheist.

The Founding Fathers were wise enough to know that people could decide for themselves what religion they wished to practice while the majority's allegiance to a Judeo-Christian God could be recognized in official government documents and traditions. In other words, Adams, Jefferson and Madison didn't kiss the ass of special interests.

Thank GOD for that.

Take care,
PK

PK -

A history lesson. God is not in our constitution for a reason. We are a secular state by design and intent - they didn't "forget" to put a reference to God in there. An old story is that Hamilton, when asked about God's absence, said,"we don't need any foreign aid" (forgive me if that isn't exact - it's been a bit since I read it). "In God We Trust" was added to the coinage around the Civil War. God entered the pledge of allegiance well after the fact during the McCarthy era, when we as a nation were all afraid of "godless communists." The first amendment clearly states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" which, though initially intended to prevent a Church of England situation, has long been interpreted as anything showing preference or prejudice towards or against a particular religion at all. Since all federal funding is through law, If any Federal money was allocated to the town or courthouse than nativity scenes and religious plaques should be taken down.

Our founding fathers also were smart enough to limit the powers of the majority. Heck, they did their best to limit the power to the smallest amount of people possible because mob rule is perhaps the greatest internal danger a country can face.

None of what you are braying and bleating about affects your ability to believe or worship how you wish. However, someone like me blanches when I see a nativity scene on public land - get your religion out of our common space! It is all about respect. Do as you will but keep it out of my face, especially in places that aren't yours alone.

Of course, back to the original topic, the start of this thread was a bunch of BS where the VA didn't understand that no government official was using their position or power to further a religious belief, just performing a ritual unrelated to that position (and volunteering, no less!). It isn't that PC attitudes are running amuck, spoiling all that is good and strong and traditional to the way we function as a society; it is just people are either too stupid or afraid to look so and thus we get chickenshit waffling and much ado about nothing.

I don't see political correctness as the problem - there are good points to some of the ideas - but the stupid on both sides has to end.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:22 pm

Jared wrote:How on earth is the government dismantling Judeo-Christian traditions? How is the "fabric of our nation" being eaten away? How on Earth are we being "constantly shoveled the purity and value of Islam"? Or how is Christianity being "agressively removed from our lives"?

Please provide some evidence that these statements aren't just extreme hyperbole.

PK and Rodster touched on this a bit.

In several schools across the country, Muslims are being allowed prayer time. Rooms are set aside for this purpose and students are sometimes excused from class to attend prayers.
Keep in mind that this is, so far, only for Muslims.
Meanwhile, Christian prayer has been abolished from schools and school sponsored events across the country.
One more example of political correctness run amock.

San Diego School Schedules Muslim Prayer Break

by Wendy Cloyd, assistant editor

Attorneys ask for similar consideration for Christian and Jewish students.

After Muslim students were given a scheduled prayer break each day, the Pacific Justice Institute (PJI) is calling for the same accommodation for other students who wish to pray.

Officials at San Diego's Carver Elementary allow Muslim students a 15-minute prayer break each afternoon. Non-Muslim students are instructed to read or write during the break.

Attorney Pete Lepiscopo, a PJI-affiliated attorney, sent a letter last week to the San Diego Board of Education that explains numerous statutory provisions that affirm students' rights of religious equality. Lepiscopo requested that classrooms be set aside for students and employees of all faiths to meet their religious obligations to pray – as is being done for Muslim students.

"The school district has created the opportunity to return prayer to school," he said. "What can be better than children praying while they are in school?"

Bruce Hausknecht, judicial analyst with Focus on the Family Action, said as long as the school adheres to two constitutional guidelines, a designated time of prayer would be legal.

"First, no teachers could lead prayer or pray with students – everything must be voluntary by the students," he said. "Second, the school would have to make the same religious accommodation available for those of all other religions."

In order to ensure that all religious exercise is voluntary, the letter suggests that the prayer times coincide with recess.

Brad Dacus, president of PJI, said voluntary, student-initiated prayer in schools should not be controversial.

"The federal courts have held that schools do not endorse everything they fail to censor," he said. "This could be a terrific opportunity for a whole community to recognize the importance of faith in our youth, without government involvement or interference."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0712/p01s03-ussc.htm

My hometown of Detroit has caved in to the PC crowd. Could you imagine the outrage if Christians used loudspeakers to play the Lord's Prayer 5 times a day?

Fight over Michigan Muslims’ Call to Prayers Continues
The Hamtramck City Council‘s decision to approve a noise ordinance that allows a Muslim call to prayer to be broadcast over loudspeakers from the Al-Islah Islamic Center has been affirmed by a 5-0 vote, but it will still go to the voters for approval either in July or in August.

CBS/AP) Long known for pierogi and polka, the bustling city of Hamtramck, Mich., is now debating whether to add an amplified Arabic chant to the local sights and sounds.

In a sign of the deep changes in this once predominantly Polish town, the City Council is expected Tuesday to pass a noise ordinance amendment that would permit mosques to issue the traditional Islamic call to prayer over loudspeakers.

But some longtime residents are resisting what they consider an affront to non-Muslims.

Hamtramck, a city of 23,000 completely surrounded by Detroit, has an old-fashioned, small-town feel, with mom-and-pop stores and American flags adorning many of the tightly packed houses. Polish groceries and restaurants abound, and if you stop someone to ask for directions, there is a good chance that person speaks only Polish.

But in recent years, the city has become much more diverse. Stores selling saris and halal meat have opened, and signs in Bengali, Arabic and Bosnian compete with signs in Polish and English. Only 23 percent of the city's residents specified Polish ancestry in the 2000 census. The town also has a sizable black population — 15 percent.

The relationship between old Hamtramck and new Hamtramck has not been without friction. On Election Day in 1999, members of a residents group questioned would-be voters of Middle Eastern or Asian appearance on their eligibility to vote. In response to complaints of discrimination, the Justice Department sent monitors during local elections in 2001.

Now the request by the Bangladeshi al-Islah mosque for permission to air the Arabic call to prayer via loudspeakers five times a day has again revealed tensions.

City Council president Karen Majewski said she expects the council to unanimously approve the amendment allowing the call to prayer — which was traditionally sung from a minaret but today is generally recorded — despite some protests at a hearing last week.

"It takes only one minute — what is it, five times a day? Five minutes only — that's all we are asking for," Masud Khan told CBS News Correspondent Lee Cowan.

Muslims figured it was no different than Christians ringing church bells which incidentally ring just across the street from the mosque five times a day, reports Cowan.

Joanne Golen, a lifelong Hamtramck resident, said she finds the content of the call to prayer offensive.

"It says Allah is the one and only God. I am Christian. My God is Jesus Christ. That is my only objection — that I have to listen to a God other than the one I believe in praised five times a day," said Golen, 68.

Caroline Zarski, 81, said allowing the call would put Islam above other religions.

But Masud Khan, secretary of the al-Islah mosque, said the purpose of the call, which lasts less than two minutes, is not to proselytize.

"We are not inviting" non-Muslims, he said. "We are calling our Muslim people, reminding them they are obligated to come to pray."

Hamtramck's Bosnian and Yemeni communities each have their own mosques, but neither has raised the issue of the call to prayer.

Many Hamtramck Muslims said the call to prayer is equivalent to church bells. And Hamtramck has several churches that ring their bells.

Opponents take issue with that comparison, saying that church bells today are used to mark the time of day and have no religious significance. If the bells are the issue, then turn them off, they say.

The call to prayer can be heard elsewhere in metropolitan Detroit. The city of Dearborn, home to one of the largest communities of Arab Americans, has allowed the call under its general noise ordinance, without a specific amendment.

Hamtramck's amended ordinance would prohibit the call before 6 a.m. or after 10 p.m. That will not always fit in with the Islamic schedule, but it is a compromise the mosque says it is willing to make.

The Michigan chapter of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee urged tolerance over the issue, condemning the "resentment and negativity" expressed during the debate.

City Council member Shahab Ahmed, who is Bangladeshi and attends al-Islah, said he was surprised the call to prayer turned into a big issue. But he said he previously experienced anti-Muslim sentiment in Hamtramck — particularly during his 2001 council bid following the Sept. 11 attacks.

But Majewski, the City Council president, said: "I think the people of Hamtramck are extraordinarily tolerant, just as evidenced by the fact that they choose to live in Hamtramck with people from all over the world."

Ther is much more to come.

ProvoAnC · Post by **ProvoAnC** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:34 pm

Just more pussification of America

If you ever have a question about anything, just ask:

WWPD - WHAT WOULD PATTON DO?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:46 pm

EZSnappin wrote:However, someone like me blanches when I see a nativity scene on public land - get your religion out of our common space! It is all about respect. Do as you will but keep it out of my face, especially in places that aren't yours alone.

Do you object to decorated Christmas trees on public land, too? After all, they're a symbol of Christmas, a Christian holiday. There are decorated trees in most Christian churches during the Christmas season, so they can easily be interpreted as religious symbols.

Is it offensive for a service member to make the sign of the cross while preparing to parachute from a military plane into a hot zone? Hey, a taxpayer who is an atheist probably helped pay for that plane. It's public property, and religion and religious symbols shouldn't be allowed there, right?

Take care,
PK

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:50 pm

Well back to the topic at hand...

The ceremony of flag folding was accompanied with the recitation that had references to religion?

This isn't the pussification of America is the f***in lack of common sense that is lost on people on this board and most of America.

If this process was done without the permission of the family that that's not acceptable.

Here's what should be done.

When there's a request for a flag ceremony the family is given a choice of this recitation or not. If the family doesn't want it the people performing the ceremony stay silent and just fold the flag.

s*** guys it's really not that hard. Give families choice and all the complaints go away. If you want it fine, if you don't fine. Instead this isn't PC gone too far, its lack of common sense.

Maybe this is offensive to some people, I don't know. I could understand if a Native American veteran passed away how this might not suit his beliefs. But that's a choice not for veterans groups, the ACLU, or the VA to make or really any of you. The family or even the veteran while alive should be given of the choice if this is to be apart of the flag presenation.