OT: This country (USA) is going to s%$ real fast

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:13 pm

Sorry for the very un-PC (and OT) topic, but two stories I´ve read recently really have we wondering where the f^&k this countries morals and priorities are.
 
 Story 1: Remember back a couple of weeks when a bunch of illegal immigrants were found to be working for Wal-Mart? Well, now a group of said ILLEGAL immigrants is suing Wal-Mart for discrimination, saying they got paid less and didn´t get the same benefits. WTF!?!!? You don´t HAVE any rights in this country, you´re here ILLEGALY!!
 
 They should never have been hired to begin with. This latest twist is just beyond absurd. Yet another lawyer with $$ in his eyes decides this would be a good lawsuit.
 
 That´s the good ´ol US of A for ya. Money over all, as we slowly sell our country like a prostitute.
 
 Story 2: There are some tests that students in 10th grade are asked to take. The results don´t go on any records, and don´t mean s&*t to them. The schools however, are required to have 95% of the students take the test, or risk government sanctions, like being forced to allow students to trasnfer out of the scholl because it is not deemed poor.
 
 The solution: bribe the kids with movie tickets, DVD players, and televisions. I can´t begin to say what a bad precident this sets. As if we aren´t conditioned enough that material goods and general consumerism is all that matters, now we can´t wait to turn our children into "Where´s Mine?" attitudes.
 
 It starts with this test, and then these kids will ask, where´s my gift for taking my finals? Where is my handout for simply showing up for class?
 
 It seems more and more every day, all that matters to this country is money and goods. We are losing our soul by the day <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon27.gif">
 
 -Matt

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:25 pm

The dirty little secret is that much of our economy depends on illegal immigrant labor. Employers are able to pay them a lot less and a lot of businessmen complain every time the minimum wage is raised in this country, saying a lot of people will lose jobs.
 
 The thing is, I don´t think too many Americans or those with legal status to work in this country would pick crops. If the domestic agricultural industry was forced to pay real wages, the price we´d pay for produce in this country would shoot up dramaticall and we´d probably get a lot more imports than we do now from South America.
 
 As for Wal Mart, they are one of the richest corporations in the country, grossing like $160 billion a year, which puts it in the range of IBM, if not above it. So they eek out profits (retail and especially grocery is a low-margin business) by keeping wages really low.
 
 I don´t officially boycott Wal Mart or anything but I dont´ go out of my way to shop there either. They happen to be a bit out of my way in my area. Sorry Airdog.

lessthanme · Post by **lessthanme** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:37 pm

I remember that test in 10th grade. I skipped that day of school.. heh. I also heard plenty of stories of kids filling random bubbles, putting in swear words.. etc. The problem is that public schools are in bad shape. The kids don´t care about their school at all. I know I didn´t. Throughout the years, I had about 2 quality teachers. Otherwise, it was atrocious. I´d go to my counselor asking for help on college or classes to take, and his response would be "call the college", or "there´s the computer, switch to the class you want" Many of the teachers don´t care, much of the administration doesn´t care, so why should the students care. I think these public schools do need the threat of kids moving to private schools to start making some strides forward.
 
 I think people are noticing the quality of the education too.. for example, this last election asked for a 1.5 million dollar levy to "avoid budget cuts" and to "finance school operations for the benefit of all of the students" in the district. That was the only explanation. I don´t know why they thought anyone would support that vague of a description and as a result, the levy was shot down. Community voted "No" by a considerable margin... but regardless. The school needs more than just money to break even. It needs more teachers and a new high school. It was just a case of the school wanting more money to spend as it sees fit, however that might be.
 
 This might only be a problem in my school district, and I´m sure there are some very good public schools out there, but my experience with public school soured me on the whole thing. My kids will likely attend a private school.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:59 pm

I think you´re right about "some" public schools, but not all are bad.
 
 The problem is, not everyone can afford a private school. So now only the privleged(sp?) are allowed a good education? Yet more capitalism at it´s best.
 
 -Matt

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:19 pm

Why shouldn´t they sue. Yes they are here illegally but remember Wal-Mart knew that as well. So if it´s good enough for them to work at wal-mart then it´s good enough for them to sue.
 
 Plus you wouldn´t be so hard on illegal immigrants if you knew exactly how much our economy relies on them. I would say a vast majority of our agriculture in regards to produce that has to picked is done with illegal immigrants. People that clean offices are done with high numbers of illegal immigrants.
 
 The fact is YOUR society requires illegal immigrants because Americans don´t want to do that work and can´t do that work with the amount they would get paid.
 
 And you seem to quick to blame the illegal immigrants. Do you shop at Wal-Mart. I don´t want to get into all this crap about Wal-Mart unions and the like. But ask yourself this question do you support businesses which support cheap overseas labor, anti-pro American labor (not unions but American workers) sentiment, and places that support forcing american workers to work part-time to cut costs and benefits to those workers.
 
 If I can get around it I look for local places first. Sometimes the choice isn´t as great, the price is a little higher and it´s out my way. But before I shop as the Home Depot, Wal-Mart or other places where my buck gets shipped off to HQ before going into the local economy I´ll shop local. Of course it´s not possible all the time but I always look local first.
 
 Buy supporting large super stores over your local mom and pop store or even supporting large chains, or companies that don´t treat the American worker with respect, you are only supporting the demand for cheap labor and all the consequences from that requirement.
 
 So if you want cheap prices, easy to find locatios, pretty stores with overly expensive interiors, then the only way you are going to get all those is buy having the companines look for ways to cut costs, and the most expensive but easiet way to cut costs is to hire cheap labor!

bayousooner · Post by **bayousooner** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:31 pm

These workers were not Wal-Mart employees. They worked for the cleaning company that Wal-Mart had a contract with. They did not get the same benefits as Wal-Mart employees, beacause they were not employed by them.
 I agree that lawyers such as this one, are causing problems for the rest us, but some of these juries are not the brightest bulbs in the box.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:35 pm

[quote]
 On 2003-11-10 13:19, JRod wrote:
 Why shouldn´t they sue. Yes they are here illegally but remember Wal-Mart knew that as well. So if it´s good enough for them to work at wal-mart then it´s good enough for them to sue.
 
 But they are here ILLEGALLY. You shouldn´t have any rights if you are here ILLEGALLY. I never said Wal-Mart (or more accurately, the sub-contracted companies) were right in hiring them to begin with. Why the hell should they get the same benefits as someone who pays taxes in this country. If they can find work here, fine, but don´t whine about how you were not treated fairly when you were here illegally.
 
 "Plus you wouldn´t be so hard on illegal immigrants if you knew exactly how much our economy relies on them."
 
 This shows how broken the system is. So no American citizen will work for such low pay? Isn´t there a minimum wage requirement in this country? Oh yeah, gotta cut costs, so we can´t even pay people min. wage. Meanwhile, the execs give themselves 25% bonuses and numerous other perks. Wal-Mart cold still pay people legally and keep their prices low. The problem is that the few at the top will never take a cut themselves, so they hack away at the layers below until they have nothing left to stand on. Then we get the Kmarts that file for bakruptcy while still giving out massive raises to execs.
 
 For the record, yes I do shop at Walmart. They deliver what I need for cheap. I like cheap you see, because I have not gotten a raise in three years. I have not gotten any bonus in 3 years. All this despiter being asked to work my butt off even harder. In order me and my fasmily to survive, I look for the best bargains.
 
 You may label me part of the problem, but I´m simply doing what I need to in order to help my family. I think the real cause is that there is nothing keeping the top layer in line. They get more and more at the expense of the lower classes. Our system SHOULD be able to support our own citizens without the need for large amounts of illegal immigrants.
 
 -matt

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:49 pm

Illegal aliens have some rights.
 
 Main Entry: in·alien·able
 Pronunciation: (")i-´nAl-y&-n&-b&l, -´nA-lE-&-n&-
 Function: adjective
 Etymology: probably from French inaliénable, from in- + aliénable alienable
 Date: circa 1645
 : incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred <inalienable rights>

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:53 pm

Figures it came from the French <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">

lessthanme · Post by **lessthanme** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:04 pm

"The problem is, not everyone can afford a private school. So now only the privleged(sp?) are allowed a good education? Yet more capitalism at it´s best. "
 
 I don´t totally understand that. Are you saying that is what is happening currently?
 
 I don´t know how public schools are funded, but what if a good portion of it was based on the number of students that attended the school. Aren´t the public schools going to try to keep their students from leaving and going to a private school. This would force the public schools to match their quality with that of the private school to keep its current students, and everyone, in theory, would be getting equal educations. Then lets say if a public school doesn´t match the private schools and attendance/performance gets too low, the government would start issuing some kind of vouchers for those that want to leave the school but can´t afford it. I think something like that could work very well, despite, probably being more capitalist.
 
 Right now, there´s no incentive for public schools to match private schools and therefore those that can´t afford private schools will be stuck in a public school, which I think is more unfair than the situation i outlined in the last paragraph.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:13 pm

"But they are here ILLEGALLY. You shouldn´t have any rights if you are here ILLEGALLY. I never said Wal-Mart (or more accurately, the sub-contracted companies) were right in hiring them to begin with. Why the hell should they get the same benefits as someone who pays taxes in this country. If they can find work here, fine, but don´t whine about how you were not treated fairly when you were here illegally. "
 
 Actually they may pay taxes (but the ones who get hired to be laborers get paid cash under the table). And there are larger numbers of people who can work here legally but can´t vote so they have no direct representation of their rights. However, they have a lot of relatives and friends who can vote and that is why the politicians, even conservatives, talk about amnesty program again to give citizenship to a lot of them.
 
 Out here in CA, it´s a hot issue. But do you deny them basic health care if they´re injured? Or do you deny their children education? On the one hand, people look at them as a burden. But on the other hand, you can compromise the public health and the overall literacy if you deny them these things. Plus, they do pay taxes and spend and contribute to the economy.
 
 One of the things Gray Davis got in trouble for just before the recall is that he signed a law to give them licenses. Again, people brought out these arguments about rights and burdens, especially since CA govt. is in deep financial crisis.
 
 But one thing you notice since Arnold got elected is that he talks about Bush helping CA with federal dollars. Because you see, even with the so-called welfare state out here for illegals, CA pays way more into the federal treasury than it receives in benefits.
 
 If you want to talk about burdens, it´s mostly states in the South who are a drain on the treasury. Yet despite these economic realities, these states rank at the bottom in terms of children´s health and education achievement. But they overwhelmingly are going Republican because the rural poor are under the assumption that the GOP are their champions.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:32 pm

WCO:
 
 It´s more than them thinking the GOP are their champions but you are 100% right. A lot in this country is guns and religion. The GOP has scared the middle-class church goers and sportsmen, hunters with this. So they think that the Dems want to take away their guns and their religion. Which for the stupid dems they play right into it, and thus the liberal tag is put squarely on them. Another GOP tactic, if you don´t like something call it a liberal.
 
 Matthew:
 I haven´t shopped at Wal-Mart in 4 years. And you know what I´m not rolling in the money. Granted I don´t think K-Mart and Target are any better but atleast it´s not Wal-Mart. Now it´s tougher in some areas because the Wal-Mart takeover of middle america has worked so well. They promised everyone jobs and people took it in small to medium sized communites. Then Wal-Mart proceed in outpricing small business thus leading to more jobs lost than Wal-Mart could provide. And wal-mart tries to pay it´s employess the bare minimum and keep workers from working full-time are they are forced by federal law to pay benfits (mostly basic health care).
 
 So immigrants can sue, I see no problem with this. They are employeed by these places so if the business hires them then I see why the can´t sue. Sure it´s wrong to hire illegals but you are blaming the illegals and saying they are wrong for suing. That´s just the sympton of the bigger problem.
 
 Oh and you guys forget that you pay more taxes than just income tax. All citizens pay sales tax. If you own a home or rent you more than likely pay for property tax. I´m not saying if you pay taxes than you are an American citizen.
 
 Oh and don´t get me started on the minimum wage. There´s a difference between minimum wage and a livable wage. You do know that if you make minimum wage in america you can still be under the poverty line?
 
 You are right the system is broken. But then again, do any of you really think that the leadership now, and the leadership that is trying to take over America wants to change this.
 
 Money talks and it talks louder than the middle class.

Granatofan · Post by **Granatofan** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:40 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2003-11-10 14:53, matthewk wrote:
 Figures it came from the French <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_wink.gif">
 
 
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 The French always get a bad rap, but there wouldn´t be a U.S. if it weren´t for France.

lessthanme · Post by **lessthanme** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 12:55 am

and vice versa