Question for Soccer Experts

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 2:59 am

Watching the first leg of the Fire-D.C United series.
 
 Can someone please explain to me why MLS doesn´t use away goals as a tie-breaker? I thought that was a well-accepted internatinal standard.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 4:26 am

As far as I know it is the well established standard. Why MLS is not using it is beyond me.
 
 My understanding of how the away goals rule came about was that it was necessary in order to encourage attacking play on the road. Frankly, I am surprised that all 3 MLS first legs today didn´t end 0-0.
 
 The players still don´t seem to grasp the home and away aggregate goals concept.
 I can´t believe the play of D.C. at the end of the game. I only cought the last 15 minutes or so, but they didn´t seem to be aware that there was a whole new 90 minutes to be played next week, and they let it all hang out to try to get the equalizer. They got way overextended, and BAM, goal #2. Now they´re really in a hole. 2-0 down going away is a lot different than 1-0, away goals rule or not.
 
 Of course, being a Metros fan, I am happy that there is no away goals rule, as if it would help.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:06 am

UEFA have been using the away-goal rule in competition since the 1970-71 season..the UEFA Cup Final of that year was the first major trophy won using this rule, as Leeds beat Juventus.
 
 As Hugo surmises, the primary reason for the rule was to open up the play. I´m surprised that the MLS don´t use it, but leagues do have some latitude as to the rules governing their own competitions. For example, the English league was the first to adopt 3 pts for a win (81-82, I think), and in Italy no competitions/relegations etc are decided on goal difference, there is a 2-legged playoff instead.

jimd · Post by **jimd** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 1:27 pm

Because the MLS is whacked. The whole playoff format is stupid. I think 80% of the teams make it, rendering the entire regular season meaningless.
 
 I know the MLS is attempting to "Americanize" soccer, but they are missing the boat. Americans, like myself, who love "el futbol" would be much more interested in the league if it followed the format the rest of the world´s leagues follow. That means, no playoffs--champion is the regular season leader. That is how it is supposed to be done in soccer. Playoff appetite is satified by cup play.
 
 Besides, how do they expect anyone to care (or get any TV ratings) when they are playing these games in the middle of footbal season?
 
 It is very frustrating. I really want this league to succeed. I would love to see my hometown (Rochester) get a team. But, I feel like the league is run so poorly, it almost seemns inevitable that the league will fold eventually.
 
 Anyway that´s my take.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 2:32 pm

jim
 
 I think that the real problems stem from the franchise nature of these teams. For example..
 
 - The playoff system is an attempt to keep as many teams actually playing for something for as long as possible..the NBA/NHL are the most obvious examples of this.
 
 - In other countries, this is usually achieved through the far more deadly medium of promotion and relegation between divisions. No franchise system could ever countenance this system, owing to the actual or perceived financial damage to your franchise´s worth that relegation would inflict.
 
 - I think some fans may be reluctant to engage with teams where they perceive that franchises could be moved or closed at little notice..I think MLS closed two in Florida (?) at short notice a few years ago.
 
 Conclusion - as you say, the MLS is trying to operate as a hybrid of US sports organisation (franchises, playoffs, draft etc) and world-wide game. At the moment the two don´t quite mesh together, and until they do, people in the US aren´t quite watching the same game that arouses the same passions as elsewhere (and that´s speaking as someone who´s followed Man City since 77, picking up 5 relegations and 5 promotions in the same time..and no trophies)
 
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Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 5:18 pm

jimd, I couldn´t agree with you more.
 
 From my conversations with some MLS folks, there is clearly an assumption that "Americans need playoffs." To me, it is from this flawed assumption that spring many of the problems MLS has in gaining momentum. In the next step, in a feeble attempt to make the regular season meaningful, they try to invent a ´home-field advantage´ that is worth playing for, subsequently inventing bizarre and confusing playoff systems to give the ´home-field´ advantage an impact (thus the stranger-than-strange "first to 5 pts." best of three games series of yesteryear). Again, they assume such a thing exists, or is by nature a powerful force no matter the conditions (i.e. crowd size, weather, playing schedule etc.), and that it can be used to create legitimacy in the regular season games. It´s an argument that starts from an invalid assumption, imo, and it spirals down from there.
 
 I am an American, bred on the Redskins and NFL Football, Baseball, college hoops, the NBA of Bird and Dr. J, Unseld, Magic, Kareem. I love Hockey as much as a guy from D.C. possibly can. I have grown to love soccer in the last 10 years with a deep passion. I have supported MLS from the beginning as if it were my duty to US Soccer (which in many ways I think it is), the least I could do for the wonderful things done in US Soccer since the start of qualifying for Italia 90. I do not need playoffs. No one would believe me in the league office, but I repeat, I do not need playoffs. Most MLS fans I have discussed this with (columbus fans, revs fans, D.C. fans, San Jose fans, others) agree; we do not need playoffs. And we´re not immigrants from countries who love their soccer (who make up a lot of MLS fans). We´re football fans, baseball fans, hockey and hoops fans, guys who played lacrosse, yea even NASCAR fans for chrissake. How much more American could we be? We just don´t know where they get the idea that Americans need playoffs.
 
 I think the first thing a league has to do to become successful is to establish legitimacy, in terms of many things, but mostly in terms of its competition. With the stupid 80% playoffs system, and the weird and bizarre systems for playoffs the league has devised (I have to say I like this year´s format better; it is much more logical than the previous weirdness), it is very hard to accept the league competition as a legitimate, fair, and meaningful competition. Add to that the player movement all the time every year, starting with the forced destruction of D.C. United, and you can see how hard it is for casual fans to be able to pick up where they left off, so to speak.
 
 To me it is a no-brainer. Run the league in a logical fashion, i.e. one table, everyone plays the same schedule. Then, promote the hell out of the 87+ year-old US Open Cup competition. (Lemme tell ya, the players really do care about that Cup, they honestly do. They play their asses off for that thing, even if there are only 3,000 people watching.) Schedule the Cup semis and finals to come after the end of the regular season. Use the Open Cup Final to be the super bowl type event, with the big league meetings, the sponsor meetings, the big media parties, etc. etc. Simple.
 
 It´s as if they think us yanks can´t figure out some complicated new European way of doing sports, yet they forget the way that baseball and the NFL began and built a following: through legitimate competition. And guess what - for a really long time in both sports, NO PLAYOFFS!!!!! Are we so different from americans of 60, 50, 40, even 100 years ago?
 
 My opinion is that just because MLB and the NFL have watered down the regular season a bit with the continuous expansion of playoffs, doesn´t mean the MLS has to start from that handicapped position.
 
 They should have taken a hint from the fact that after the VERY FIRST SEASON, the supporters groups of all the teams got to gether to pay for and award a trophy (the Supporters Shield) to the regular season points champion. Here you have a bunch of American fans basically disparaging the playoff system created by the league in favor of spending their OWN MONEY to reward the team the supporters groups feel most deserving (but that the League itself felt it unnecessary to reward). Before the end of the first season´s playoffs, this was done by the supporters groups, and the award was given to the top team on the day of the MLS Cup Final (I can´t remember if it was D.C. or Tampa, I think it was Tampa). If that´s not a strong hint that the most loyal and energized fans who, as you put it jimd, "would be much more interested in the league if it followed the format the rest of the world´s leagues follow," then I don´t know what would be.
 
 Golly I could go on and on about how to fix MLS.
 
 Dave, your points are well taken. Only thing is I don´t think MLS franchises are moving or disappearing any time soon, but I could see how a potential fan could be concerned about that.
 
 As much as I would like to see promotion/relegation system, I think you´re right; it just ain´t gonna happen in the States. Another thing that ain´t gonna happen in ANY american sport is what happens in London, where you have as many as 6 or more teams in the top league in a given season. The reasons for this never hapenning in the States are many and are very old (my assumption is that Branch Rickey did the deed when he created the association between his Major League team with minor league clubs, thus beginning the vertical integration of farm systems in baseball. Surely there are lots of other factors, too).
 
 However, I would not say that that dooms MLS from the start. I think the league could be successful in a franchise system, it just needs first and foremost to have its own venues, so it can control its own schedule, get on the world calendar, make a little money from games (the teams really lose a lot when they play at home in oversized stadia they don´t own, and they don´t get any of the ancillary moneys, like parking fees, concession profits, etc. etc.), and basically establish a permanence in the community (physical plant, place to go have fun) and the sports world in the US. Then, they can start to grow. (I say look at minor league baseball as a good place to start. More people went to minor league baseball games this year than ever before, and for the most part it´s not to see the games. It´s a place to go with the community, bring the kids, have a cheap meal and a relaxing, good time, maybe you get lucky and the game turns out to be a good one.)
 
 When I go to Metros games, I see a ton of kids, from the very young, who clearly have no clue what is going on but they´re just excited to be there, to the high shcool aged kids for whom MLS has been around half their lives. I can only hope that when these kids are my age, there is still a league they can be excited about and get into; it will take time, but I believe when those kids are grown and have families, MLS will be a firmly established institution in many US cities. I mean, look at the horrid Arena Football League. It took them more than 10 years, but they finally got a big network TV contract. 10 years! Nowadays those arenas are full (only 20,000 seats at most in those places as opposed to the barns the MLS teams play in, where 20,000 feels like a very empty place), and the league doesn´t appear to be going anywhere soon. Compare that to the failed XFL, all hype and no substance, getting way ahead of itself trying to create a national buzz, but at the expense of a legitimate competition people could take seriously; after 2 weeks, people saw through it and it fell into a black hole. Not so with the tortoise-paced Arena Fotball league.
 
 I said I could go on and on, and I did. I´ll shut up now.
 
 jimd here´s hoping Rochester gets one of the new teams after next year, you guys deserve it. More teams in towns who want them, who don´t have NBA, NHL, NFL, AND MLB teams and so forth. Put teams in Portland, Rochester, Birmingham, Trenton, so many places that could be the Green Bays, the Buffalos, the Pittsburghs of the NFL for MLS.
 
 OK I´ll stop rambling now.

jimd · Post by **jimd** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:04 pm

Dave and Hugo,
 
 Great points.
 
 There are a lot of issues with soccer in America. Here´s one more point I will make:
 
 The MLS shouldn´t worry so much about creating a "hybrid" or "americanizing." There are plenty of fans who do not need to be converted, but are turned off by the MLS because of the way it is run (mainly the playoffs). They are essentially losing those fans, in an attempt to acquire a larger fan base that for the most part is not acquirable (word?).
 
 I am the fan they are losing. I am a Buffalo Bills season ticket holder, a huge Sabres, Yankees and Knicks fan, yet I also love soccer. I play once or twice a week. I watch EPL and Series A every week. I attend 5-10 A-league games a year. I´ve been to Old Trafford, Highbury, and Upton Park.
 
 I know a lot of guys like me; "mainstream" American sports guys who like soccer, but really do not get into the MLS. I just wish some aspects of the league would change (don´t play in huge stadiums, more teams, more owners, no playoffs, etc.). I really want to get more into it, but can´t because of these issues.
 
 Some other random thoughts:
 
 --I agree with Hugo about the Florida teams folding; I think it is natural for some teams not to make it at first. Ultimateley, I do not think it will hurt the league´s chances significantly or isolate fans in other cities.
 
 --Dave, City has assembles a very nice team this year. Another nice win this weekend...Europe next year?
 
 --Hugo, Rochester is actually just beginning to construct a 12,000-15,000 seat soccer-specific stadium. This town really supports socccer, we average close to 10,000 for A-league games that are played in a baseball stadium.
 
 The thing that worries me is that A-league ends in August/September. I´m not sure if the community would stay interested in an MLS team that was playing into November. It is also a huge Bills town and that is all anyone cares about come September.
 
 Anyways, now I´m rambling...

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:08 pm

Jim:
 
 I´m in Syracuse, man. We must hook up next season when the Syracuse Salty Dogs play Rochester.
 
 We´ll beat the s*** out of each other in true hooligan style -- Roch and Syracuse being fierce rivals, of course -- and then share a few beers and laughs afterward!
 
 Seriously, I´d love to hook up at a game sometime. I dig footie, and the Salty Dogs were a breath of fresh air in this town last spring and summer considering the incredible indifference of the Syracuse University athletic department and the front office of the Syracuse SkyChiefs (AAA baseball) toward their respective fans.
 
 Take care,
 PK [ This message was edited by: pk500 on 02-11-2003 19:12 ]

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:31 am

Just to pile on MLS. How sensible is it that they scheduled the second leg of the Chicago-DC match-up for 12:00pm Central on a Sunday. Great idea putting it up against the NFL when you´re doing a national broadcast...

jimd · Post by **jimd** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:49 am

PK,
 
 I´m in for the Rhinos-Dogs game next season, hopefully in our new stadium.
 
 From what I´ve heard the Syracuse franchise did pretty well this year. A few Rochester vets ended up going there this year (Tommy Tanner, among others) so I followed them pretty closely.
 
 The A-league is not too bad to follow, and Rochester really goes all out trying to assign the best talent available. We´ve had a lot of decent players come through here. (Pat Onstad played here 2-3 years and now is the starting GK for San Jose and had a terrific season.)
 
 The one thing I really despise about the league is that they almost continually blare crappy pop music during the game. It drives me nuts. Do they do that in Syracuse?
 
 Let the Thruway rivalry begin!!!
 
 Jim D.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:44 am

Jim:
 
 Cool -- hope we can meet at a Dogs-Rhinos´ game.
 
 Yeah, the Dogs did quite well this season considering they were an expansion team. Finished right around .500.
 
 The team was third, I think, in the A-League overall in attendance, behind Rochester and another club. Big fun to go to the games, even if I wish P&C Stadium wasn´t artificial turf. Soccer on turf isn´t nearly as good as on grass, especially on P&C´s turf, which is harder than Chinese arithmetic. None of that NewTurf here, sadly.
 
 And yeah, loud music and a DJ can be heard over the loudspeakers during some of the onfield play at Salty Dogs´ games. The music frequency was reduced during the season as people got more familiar with the ebb and flow of soccer, but it´s still there.
 
 The music is annoying, but it´s a small price to pay if the atmosphere encourages people to return to the next game. I don´t care if they come for the atmosphere, as long as they come again. Sooner or later, they´ll understand the beauty of soccer and get hooked.
 
 Take care,
 PK