The Astros are history

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:00 am

Yes I do.
Its harder to get those offensive numbers out of a ss.
I can get other players to come closer to the OF/1b numbers than I can get to come as close to ARods ss numbers.

So If I start with ARod at ss....I have an instant advantage that you will never be able to make up...

If the BoSox had gotten ARod youd be seeing it my way.

Cincinnati_Kid · Post by **Cincinnati_Kid** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:06 am

Parker wrote:
XXXIV wrote:You aint getting a GM job any time soon are ya?

Gotta take the dude that can play ss.
And both Vlad and Pujols are younger than Arod.

vlad is less than 6 months younger than arod not a huge difference there

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:15 am

Personally, I'd take a pitcher to start my team.

Cincinnati_Kid · Post by **Cincinnati_Kid** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:30 am

ScoopBrady wrote:Personally, I'd take a pitcher to start my team.

BINGO we have a winner

Diablo25 · Post by **Diablo25** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:50 am

I can't believe anyone would not take Pujols. The guy is an animal and he's only 24. 2 years ago I would have taken A-Rod but Pujols has so many great years ahead of him. Beltran is a tremendous player but he's the "impulse" pick right now because he's so hot in the playoffs. Until he proves over time he's a .320+ hitter I drop him down on my list. Top 5 yes, #1 no. I still feel A-Rod is being wasted at 3rd with the Yanks. I love Jeter but I feel the Yanks are better suited with him at 2b.

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:08 am

That was a tough game to swallow. Both Backe and Williams pitched tremendously. 8 innings from both pitchers of one hit ball!?!?! I never would have predicted a pitchers dual with the way this series has gone.

Once again, we weren't able to get strong enough bullpen relief. I just don't have that confidence in Isringhausen than I do a Gagne or Lidge. Hats off to Lidge for pitching three consecutive days and just blowing the ball by Walker and Pujols.

Heading back to St. Louis, I'm not throwing in the rally towel just yet. If Garner decides to start Munro in game 6 instead of Clemens (allowing Clemens an extra day of rest), then we have a chance. However, Morris has been anything but consistent.

I can't remember the last time the Cards lost 4 in a row. I remember them winning 4 in a row so 2 in a row can't be that impossible.

Honestly, I don't know if my heart could withstand a game 7, but it sure would be exciting as heck to witness.

Just like many other Cards fans I talked to this morning, everyone watched the Rams while the Astros were at bat.

Hey the Rams won to get to 4-2. Ho Hum. Cards still lost.

Parker · Post by **Parker** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:17 am

XXXIV wrote:Yes I do.
Its harder to get those offensive numbers out of a ss.
I can get other players to come closer to the OF/1b numbers than I can get to come as close to ARods ss numbers.

So If I start with ARod at ss....I have an instant advantage that you will never be able to make up...

If the BoSox had gotten ARod youd be seeing it my way.

Ever heard of Miguel Tejada? He had quite a bit better year than Arod. And he is also a bit younger that Arod.

But I agree, if you could, you should pick a dominate pitcher to start your team.

jLp vAkEr0 · Post by **jLp vAkEr0** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:27 am

Cincinnati_Kid wrote:ever heard of AROD ?

Yes, but still, I'm talking about an overall player. While Arod has been a more productive hitter, Beltran can simply do it all. Hit, run(15 for 15 stealing 3rd base) field. That's all. I'm not saying I would take Beltran over either Pujols or Arod. Just saying that he is a overall better baseball player.

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:31 am

No one in history has put up the numbers Pujols has in his first 4 seasons.

Both players made spectacular plays yesterday in the field. Beltran is very good, but Pujols is great.

jLp vAkEr0 · Post by **jLp vAkEr0** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:47 am

sportdan30 wrote:No one in history has put up the numbers Pujols has in his first 4 seasons.

Both players made spectacular plays yesterday in the field. Beltran is very good, but Pujols is great.

\

Great Hitter.

Actually, incredibly amazing young hitter.

fatheadX · Post by **fatheadX** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:55 am

I just read that Julian Tavarez broke his hand when he went back into the dugout after surrendering the big fly to Beltran. I've never been a Tavarez fan due to his hot-headedness, so this is one more data point that helps make the case that he is a moron. Way to help your team, Julian. I hope the Cards don't need a setup man in the next couple of games...

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:38 am

javi wrote:That's all. I'm not saying I would take Beltran over either Pujols or Arod. Just saying that he is a overall better baseball player.

Why do you insist on making ridiculous statements? If Beltran is the better baseball player WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE SOMEONE ELSE? This makes absolutely no sense. That's like saying, I've got to build a football team. Tom Brady or Payton Manning are available....I don't want the best player...I'd take Jay Fiedler. WTF?

jLp vAkEr0 · Post by **jLp vAkEr0** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:45 am

dbdynsty25 wrote:
javi wrote:That's all. I'm not saying I would take Beltran over either Pujols or Arod. Just saying that he is a overall better baseball player.
Why do you insist on making ridiculous statements? If Beltran is the better baseball player WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE SOMEONE ELSE? This makes absolutely no sense. That's like saying, I've got to build a football team. Tom Brady or Payton Manning are available....I don't want the best player...I'd take Jay Fiedler. WTF?

Db:

Fine dude, if you can't analyze someones comment without becoming a raging asshole the just move on.

Parker · Post by **Parker** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:46 am

I probably would take Beltran over Arod because I still think he is improving as well as a better basestealing. I don't get why people are so high on Arod, a sub 300 hitter who doesn't even walk that often. His defense is very good, but I don't think that makes him the best player to take first out of everyone. But I would not take any position player over Pujols or Vlad.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:24 pm

Parker wrote:I probably would take Beltran over Arod because I still think he is improving as well as a better basestealing. I don't get why people are so high on Arod, a sub 300 hitter

Batting average by itself is a pretty useless way of evaluating a hitter. A-Rod has won a batting title, he just has a different way of hitting now.

Parker wrote:who doesn't even walk that often.

He was 9th in the AL in walks.

Parker wrote:His defense is very good, but I don't think that makes him the best player to take first out of everyone. But I would not take any position player over Pujols or Vlad.

A SS with offensive ability like Rodriguez has much more value than a corner infielder/outfielder. Same thing for catcher, and to a lesser extent center fielder. Which is why A-Rod could get hit by a bus tomorrow and be in the HOF.

Cincinnati_Kid · Post by **Cincinnati_Kid** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:11 pm

Parker wrote:
XXXIV wrote:Yes I do.
Its harder to get those offensive numbers out of a ss.
I can get other players to come closer to the OF/1b numbers than I can get to come as close to ARods ss numbers.

So If I start with ARod at ss....I have an instant advantage that you will never be able to make up...

If the BoSox had gotten ARod youd be seeing it my way.
Ever heard of Miguel Tejada? He had quite a bit better year than Arod. And he is also a bit younger that Arod.

But I agree, if you could, you should pick a dominate pitcher to start your team.

sure have and yes he is in the same breath so to speak but i go with arod as a gm selling tickets is part of the equation and arod brings the name brand....... when we are debating offensive cornerstones

but again like scoop mentioned and you have said a dominate pitcher is definaley the way to go

Parker · Post by **Parker** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:14 pm

Miguel Tejada is a more entertaining player to watch in my opinion. He really has a knack for the dramatic and isn't afraid to show his emotions on the field, which is what really sells tickets.

krustylew · Post by **krustylew** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:21 pm

Kazuya wrote:
Parker wrote:who doesn't even walk that often.

He was 9th in the AL in walks.

Heh heh, there are those "facts" getting in the way again.

Any hoo, If I were starting a team, a dominant starting pitcher would be the way to go. But, Arod would be my choice for a starting position player. There are very few SS [one to be exact] that can do what he does, and but a 1b slugger is less rare.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:23 pm

I guess I'm in the minority when I'd take Vlad before any pitcher. I can see the need for a #1 starting pitcher, but best case, he has a chance to pitch once ever 4 games. Vlad on the other hand gets to play in every game. That's where I differ with the majority here I guess.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:47 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:I guess I'm in the minority when I'd take Vlad before any pitcher. I can see the need for a #1 starting pitcher, but best case, he has a chance to pitch once ever 4 games. Vlad on the other hand gets to play in every game. That's where I differ with the majority here I guess.

Not at all, your intuition is correct. It is generally accepted that an elite level every day player is more valuable than an elite starter. See Bill James and win shares for more details.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:06 pm

You all make wonderful arguemnts.
Im still taking A Rod and unlike the Ny Jeters ...Im playinghim at ss.

Parker · Post by **Parker** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:18 pm

krustylew wrote:
Kazuya wrote:
Parker wrote:who doesn't even walk that often.
He was 9th in the AL in walks.

Heh heh, there are those "facts" getting in the way again.

Any hoo, If I were starting a team, a dominant starting pitcher would be the way to go. But, Arod would be my choice for a starting position player. There are very few SS [one to be exact] that can do what he does, and but a 1b slugger is less rare.

The facts are the other players we have been talking about like Pujols and Vlad blow Arod's OBP percentage away. I look at OBP, not walks, even though being 9th in any category is not that great when you are talking about which player is best in the game. Arod's main threat is his power, but I don't think he is a particularly disciplined hitter or one that can hit the ball to any part of the ballpark when he wants to like Vlad can.

As far as being a SS, that's a bonus, but again Tejada is a better hitter and made more spectucular plays this year than Arod ever did at SS in a season. I still would take Vlad, because he is a freaky guy with unique abilities, that stand out not only among outfielders, but among all position players. Pujols may also pull the ball most of the time, but he is more disciplined at the plate and harder to get out than Arod.

In any case, as it stands now, Arod is being overpaid quite a bit considering his past few seasons. He is an all-star, but should not be one of the top 5 paid position players.

krustylew · Post by **krustylew** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:45 pm

Parker wrote:
krustylew wrote:
Kazuya wrote: He was 9th in the AL in walks.

Heh heh, there are those "facts" getting in the way again.

Any hoo, If I were starting a team, a dominant starting pitcher would be the way to go. But, Arod would be my choice for a starting position player. There are very few SS [one to be exact] that can do what he does, and but a 1b slugger is less rare.
The facts are the other players we have been talking about like Pujols and Vlad blow Arod's OBP percentage away. I look at OBP, not walks, even though being 9th in any category is not that great when you are talking about which player is best in the game. Arod's main threat is his power, but I don't think he is a particularly disciplined hitter or one that can hit the ball to any part of the ballpark when he wants to like Vlad can.

As far as being a SS, that's a bonus, but again Tejada is a better hitter and made more spectucular plays this year than Arod ever did at SS in a season. I still would take Vlad, because he is a freaky guy with unique abilities, that stand out not only among outfielders, but among all position players. Pujols may also pull the ball most of the time, but he is more disciplined at the plate and harder to get out than Arod.

In any case, as it stands now, Arod is being overpaid quite a bit considering his past few seasons. He is an all-star, but should not be one of the top 5 paid position players.

Dude, I will agree with you on the overpaid part. But in my opinion too many players are "overpaid."

But... your making my head spin with your complete change of the standards you use. You said that he doesn't walk much, someone proves you wrong and then you say "well that doesn't matter he doesn't have a high enough obp.' I swear you are a walking contradiction.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:55 pm

Parker wrote:The facts are the other players we have been talking about like Pujols and Vlad blow Arod's OBP percentage away. I look at OBP, not walks, even though being 9th in any category is not that great when you are talking about which player is best in the game. Arod's main threat is his power, but I don't think he is a particularly disciplined hitter or one that can hit the ball to any part of the ballpark when he wants to like Vlad can.

There are some things that Vlad can do better and some that Alex can do better. Alex had a higher OPS in 2001 and 2002, and Vlad has had the higher OPS over the last two seasons. Even if you give Vlad a slight edge at the plate (which I don't have a problem with) it doesn't make up for the huge edge you get with Alex's gold glove level defense at short versus Vlad's standing around in right catching three balls a game.

Parker wrote:As far as being a SS, that's a bonus, but again Tejada is a better hitter and made more spectucular plays this year than Arod ever did at SS in a season.

That is pretty obviously one of the silliest things I've ever read. Go down A-Rod's year by year stats and *pick a year, any year*. ALL better than Tejada has ever done. Even this year, when you adjust for park effects.

You wanna pick on someone when he has a down year, but all great players have down years. Ichiro hit .312 last year, and .372 this year. If you don't think A-Rod is going to have MVP like years again you're kidding yourself. Even this year wasn't *that* bad for him, I've seen some Win Shares rankings that had him as the second most valuable player in the AL behind Gary Sheffield.

You really need to stop the Tejada > A-Rod argument because there is no way you can win it. They are the same age, so just look at career stats. No comparison. Offensively, defensively, any way you want to slice it.

Parker wrote:I still would take Vlad, because he is a freaky guy with unique abilities, that stand out not only among outfielders, but among all position players. Pujols may also pull the ball most of the time, but he is more disciplined at the plate and harder to get out than Arod.

Pujols and Vlad are fantastic players, but they don't make the defensive impact. It's always been about the defense with A-Rod. Pulling aside Bonds, there are at several guys who are as frightening at the plate as Vlad, A-Rod and Pujols. None of them play shortstop. Most teams have to trot out a guy like Cabrera (who misses balls by five feet at the plate) because it's so important to have that position covered in the field that they don't give a s*** what he hits. That's why A-Rod and Mike Piazza are going to the HOF, while Vlad and Pujols are still going to have to work for another 10 years to see what's going to happen.

Parker wrote:In any case, as it stands now, Arod is being overpaid quite a bit considering his past few seasons. He is an all-star, but should not be one of the top 5 paid position players.

I don't see any reason why anyone besides Bonds should make more.

MizzouRah · Post by **MizzouRah** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:06 pm

sportdan30 wrote: I just don't have that confidence in Isringhausen than I do a Gagne or Lidge.
Who does? Those two are elite, well them and Rivera. Kent did a good job of scouting Izzy. That first pitch FB is the norm for Izzy.

Heading back to St. Louis, I'm not throwing in the rally towel just yet. If Garner decides to start Munro in game 6 instead of Clemens (allowing Clemens an extra day of rest), then we have a chance. However, Morris has been anything but consistent.
This next start by Morris will define his last year as a Cardinal... and maybe his value on the market.

I can't remember the last time the Cards lost 4 in a row. I remember them winning 4 in a row so 2 in a row can't be that impossible.

Honestly, I don't know if my heart could withstand a game 7, but it sure would be exciting as heck to witness.

Just like many other Cards fans I talked to this morning, everyone watched the Rams while the Astros were at bat.

Hey the Rams won to get to 4-2. Ho Hum. Cards still lost.
I was at the Rams game and my friend had his walkman on, I couldn't believe how good both games were (Rams and Cards). I saw the Kent HR while standing in line for some food. Sad indeed.

Todd