New Job!?!$%

[Sport73]

Hey boys,

Been a while since I started a thread on my own, but it's been a crazy couple of weeks and I'm looking for encouragement/guidance.

Been with my current company for almost 4 years. Job going nowhere, company going into negative territory, but good people and satisfying work.
Got 2 offers this week; one for much LESS money but with greater job satisfaction and less than 2 miles from current job.
Another for much MORE money, greater job satisfaction and tremendous upside potential (stock etc.) but in NYC requiring time apart from the family and an eventual move in 2013.
And finally my current employer came back after my resignation and offered equal title as NYC, bump in pay (not sure yet to what), and obviously no relocation but still with the same poor long-term company prognosis.

3 options on the table, which is nice, but ruled out the less money option because...duh!

We love where we live (Florida) and enjoy a wonderful lifestyle of friends, neighbors, leisure, and ample activities for our 10 year old daughter. Nonetheless, jobs in my field are scarce in this area and my current company, while they will not go out of business, is hurting right now. NYC is a tremendous opportunity and I've verbally accepted; last step is to sign on the dotted line. It will mean tremendous stress as I will commute for 8+ months so my daughter can finish the school year in FL. My wife's family is all in the area, which is nice, but my mom (lonely since my dad passed 3 months ago) and wonderful friends are here in FL.

Leaving is the right career move, likely the right financial move, and provides more long-term opportunity with the possibility of great success/wealth. Staying is almost certainly a short-term hedge against risk and an acceptance of a mid-level career, though showered in the best friends/neighbors I could ever imagine. But, FL has little opportunity for future growth and a lot of risk if current employment ends or radical change (new CEO) likely occurs.

The right thing is NYC in defense of my career, long-term family security, and acceptance that things will work out, right?

PS> Somewhat good problems to have in today's world, so apologies in advance...

[pk500]

A wise man once said you only have one family and one core group of close friends, especially as you get older. There are many jobs in this world, even if they're a struggle to find.

I've had chances to leave our home area here in upstate N.Y., where both of our families are located, our kids are entrenched in school, we have a wonderful group of friends in a very Mayberry-esque place to live. I would make more money and have more career mobility if I left here for a few opportunities I've had elsewhere.

But I never would do it. I would find another job here in this area -- almost certainly out of motorsports -- before moving. My family and friends come first. My current job provides for them, and we're all happy in equal measure. No one is making compromises to please or placate someone else, putting on a happy face when they long to be somewhere else or with old friends. You can't put a price on that.

When I'm laid out in a clean suit in (hopefully) about 40-45 years from now, there won't be any toys in the wooden box with me except for a boxing glove and a bottle of scotch. Otherwise, I want people to walk through the receiving line and say: "He was a great dad, a great husband and a great friend. He put other people first. A super guy." I could care less if they say: "Man, he had a hell of a good career. He was really good at what he did, one of the best in his field," even if it is true.

I'm serious about my job, work a lot of hours and think I'm good at it. But still, I work to live. I don't live to work.

Good luck with your decision. But it sounds like you've already made it!

P.S.: You're originally from the NYC area, right? Otherwise, a transition from almost anywhere to Metro NYC can be a big one.

[Pete1210]

I subscribe to pk's philosophy. I went for a career in public service near home over a more lucrative career in the private sector in NYC. Less money, but closer to home, regular hours and more time with my family. I figure that family time is priceless.

[fletcher21]

As usual, Paul is the voice of reason around here. Money is nice, but don't put it on a pedastal. I was in your position a while back. I had a job I liked, but the pay wasn't great. I moved into a job that pays a very good amount, but I gave up so much in order to get it that it's jaded me. As long as you can provide for your family, I'd put your happiness above extra money. If something happened to one of your family members when you were away from home, you'd probably be beside yourself with regret. Could you share your concerns with your current job, or would they not take kindly to you stating you're afraid that you are in a place where growth is impossible?

[wco81]

Does the greater pay in NY cover the higher housing costs?

Or the commute costs flying back and forth?

If it does, pretty easy choice.

It seems like being involved closely with the children is a relatively recent trend. Mad Men depicts parents who are detached from their children and that was apparently the ethos of the time, despite most women being stay at home mothers and wives. Then as women entered the workforce, latchkey children became a common phenomenon.

Maybe all those child development experts like Dr. Spock changed it around and then parents felt they had to have relationships, be friends to their children. Are children now more spoiled as a result than they were back then?

[Brando70]

PK makes a great case, but I'm going to disagree a bit.

First of all, financial stress is probably the second-worst stress a family faces after health-related ones. It's not that you need a lot of money to be happy, or that money is the source of happiness, but having a shaky job or losing a gig can be a source of tremendous unhappiness.

Second, if your wife has family in the area, you're not being plopped there all by yourself.

As for relocation and being away from your daughter, that's tough, but speaking as a former Navy brat who moved a lot, experiencing a new environment can be amazing for a kid. The leaving can be very hard, no doubt, but I'm grateful that I got to live all over the U.S., even if being away from family and friends was hard. Getting a chance to grow up in NYC can be life-changing. I sympathize with your being away for eight months, but there was a stretch around the first Gulf War where my dad was gone for 12 out of 18 months, with no visits. It sucks but it'll go by faster than you think.

Sport, I think it comes down to what you and your family want. If they are on board, I think you should make the switch. If not, then you just have to weigh the issue like you said.

Good luck!

[pk500]

Maybe all those child development experts like Dr. Spock changed it around and then parents felt they had to have relationships, be friends to their children. Are children now more spoiled as a result than they were back then?

Simple question: How many kids do you have?

[sportdan30]

Taking work out of the equation (while of course it's quite significant), write out the pros and cons of moving. Friends, family, children's desires, climate, neighborhoods, etc etc. Life is fleeting. Where are you going to be most happy?

[wco81]

No kids PK.


Sport's main concern seems to be having to commute for 8-9 months until his daughter finishes the school year. That's more than a lot of parents have done. There are Army brats who grew up moving from country to country.

I've moved in the middle of the school year and recall a lot of kids joining or leaving school in the middle of the year too. At 10-years old, that's the 4th grade? Unless things have changed, curriculum is pretty standardized at that level. In high-school, you may have some students placed in more advanced math classes than others and these types of advanced classes may not be available at all schools.

Of course, it could be a tough adjustment for a young child, having to make new friends, moving to a new city, etc. She'll have to go through that adjustment regardless of when she moves. Lots of people go through that growing up and to a certain extent, it may be better preparation for them when they're working, as job mobility is becoming more common.

[pk500]

Of course, it could be a tough adjustment for a young child, having to make new friends, moving to a new city, etc. She'll have to go through that adjustment regardless of when she moves. Lots of people go through that growing up and to a certain extent, it may be better preparation for them when they're working, as job mobility is becoming more common.

Maybe. But the psyche of a 10-year-old is much different than that of a 25-year-old. Plus I'm not sure if I would want to disrupt my kids' childhood as preseason training for adulthood. Kids grow up so fast these days that ensuring at least a few years of a normal, grounded, disciplined childhood is one of the most important jobs of a parent.

I asked if you had kids because you seemed to make a fairly sweeping statement about helicopter parents in your previous post. No question, hovering parents are tearing at the fabric of American society. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with parents who want to be PRESENT in their kids' lives, but not always orchestrating them.

I'm around my kids all the time. But I'm their father, not their friend. There is a HUGE difference.

Anyways, carry on! I hope this hodgepodge lodge of advice is helping you, Corey!

[wco81]

It's not ideal but millions of people moved around as kids.

You know, some kids can't wait to get away from small towns the first chance they get -- bright lights of the big city have lured a lot of people. It might be tough at first but most people would become better-rounded for having had the chance to travel, observe and adapted to different lifestyles.

[pk500]

You know, some kids can't wait to get away from small towns the first chance they get -- bright lights of the big city have lured a lot of people. It might be tough at first but most people would become better-rounded for having had the chance to travel, observe and adapted to different lifestyles.

True. I have lived in upstate New York, Connecticut and greater Los Angeles. I have traveled all over the U.S. for work. And when I formed my own business in 1994 after escaping L.A., my wife and I could have settled anywhere.

We chose to return home to Central New York, where we've stayed and plan to live until we're lowered into the ground. But that perspective only was gained by living elsewhere.

You're right: You don't truly know the value of home and proper roots until you leave.

[WillHunting]

I think you have to think 2 or 3 times before moving to NYC. NYC is a mad house, it is not for everyone and it is the most densely populated city in the nation, so there is a lot of issues with it:

-Cost of Living: Very very high, you will probably spend 40%+ on just rent, another 20% on food and there is not much left for recreation and savings.

-Space: You are from Florida, so I assume you have a lot of land and enjoy nature. Not so much here, you will be living in a sub-1000 sq ft space and learn not to hoard so much stuff. Car is also optional so if you enjoy driving, that will be a minus. You have one kid so you are looking at a 2 bed room apartment and trust me when I tell you, a 1000 sq ft apartment is pretty big anywhere within 30-45 min commute to work.

-Education: You have to uproot your kids, and I am not impressed with the public schools in Manhattan/Brooklyn/Queens. They aren't horrible but it depends on where you are zoned. I lived in Queens (Astoria) for 2 years, and for the past 9 years in Brooklyn and the school we were zoned for is TERRIBLE. None of my neighbors put their kids in public school, that should tell you something. And because there are so many kids, even if you move to a good neighborhood (EXPENSIVE!) with good schools, you are NOT guaranteed to have a spot. You still have to go through lottery, which is ridiculous.

My daughter is turning 5 and last month, we moved to a NJ suburb for this very reason. All the parents in her daycare asked what we are doing for school because we are all struggling to figure it out. So we researched quite a bit for the past 3 years and found a great town in NJ that has excellent public school (but property tax is a killer, I am paying 13k a year). But hey, at least the tax (over 60%) is going directly to the school system so I am paying for something, and have a much bigger space and nicer neighborhood for my daughter to grow up in.

Anyway, if you need some perspective in living in NYC, feel free to hit me up in PM. I am a city person and not much of a nature person, but even I am sick of the high COL and crowds crowds and more crowds. Since I have lived here for 11 years (prior to that in Boston), I can tell you the pros and cons. There are some amazing things NYC can offer that nowhere else can (Boardway, restaurants, good career), but it might not be a good move if you look at your own situation and family as a whole.

[Diablo25]

A wise man once said you only have one family and one core group of close friends, especially as you get older. There are many jobs in this world, even if they're a struggle to find.

I've had chances to leave our home area here in upstate N.Y., where both of our families are located, our kids are entrenched in school, we have a wonderful group of friends in a very Mayberry-esque place to live. I would make more money and have more career mobility if I left here for a few opportunities I've had elsewhere.

But I never would do it. I would find another job here in this area -- almost certainly out of motorsports -- before moving. My family and friends come first. My current job provides for them, and we're all happy in equal measure. No one is making compromises to please or placate someone else, putting on a happy face when they long to be somewhere else or with old friends. You can't put a price on that.

When I'm laid out in a clean suit in (hopefully) about 40-45 years from now, there won't be any toys in the wooden box with me except for a boxing glove and a bottle of scotch. Otherwise, I want people to walk through the receiving line and say: "He was a great dad, a great husband and a great friend. He put other people first. A super guy." I could care less if they say: "Man, he had a hell of a good career. He was really good at what he did, one of the best in his field," even if it is true.

I'm serious about my job, work a lot of hours and think I'm good at it. But still, I work to live. I don't live to work.

Good luck with your decision. But it sounds like you've already made it!

P.S.: You're originally from the NYC area, right? Otherwise, a transition from almost anywhere to Metro NYC can be a big one.

Incredibly well put.

[Gurantsu]

If you aren't tied in to living in the city, my mother in law has worked in Manhattan for years, and finally decided to move to Pennsylvania, just north of Philly in Bucks County. So her commute isn't too bad now, just a ten minute drive across the river to the Trenton train station, then about an hour from there to Penn Station which is a few minutes walk to her work. If you do decide to take the plunge that may be something to look into.

[WillHunting]

If you aren't tied in to living in the city, my mother in law has worked in Manhattan for years, and finally decided to move to Pennsylvania, just north of Philly in Bucks County. So her commute isn't too bad now, just a ten minute drive across the river to the Trenton train station, then about an hour from there to Penn Station which is a few minutes walk to her work. If you do decide to take the plunge that may be something to look into.

My boss commute from PA as well. I don't recommend it, it is a LONG commute, and unless the office is near Penn station, it will add at the minimum another 15 minutes (and over $100/month) from Penn station to wherever the office is. You are looking at a 2 hour door to door commute.

[pk500]

If you aren't tied in to living in the city, my mother in law has worked in Manhattan for years, and finally decided to move to Pennsylvania, just north of Philly in Bucks County. So her commute isn't too bad now, just a ten minute drive across the river to the Trenton train station, then about an hour from there to Penn Station which is a few minutes walk to her work. If you do decide to take the plunge that may be something to look into.

My boss commute from PA as well. I don't recommend it, it is a LONG commute, and unless the office is near Penn station, it will add at the minimum another 15 minutes (and over $100/month) from Penn station to wherever the office is. You are looking at a 2 hour door to door commute.

True. Hell, it's a 90-minute commute each way from parts of Staten Island to Midtown Manhattan once you factor in train, ferry, subway. I did it three days per week when working as an intern at the old Sport magazine in the 80s while living with a girlfriend's family in Staten Island.

Makes me appreciate my current 30-second commute to my basement office every day.

[Gurantsu]

She's an executive for Macy's, which is less than a block from Penn Station so it works well for her. It's a much shorter commute for her than the 3 hour one she was doing!

[Sport73]

Thanks for the candid and insightful responses boys. Making my final decision by Monday but looking like I will make the switch.

The ultimate question at hand is one of long-term happiness and security. While we love our lifestyle now, we recognize it's unlikely to last forever (if we don't move away, one or all of our great friends/neighbors almost certainly will). My current job is fine, but I've been 'shafted' by the company a few times and my forecast calls for a very bumpy next 12-16 months (change in CEO, possible sale, lay-offs, who knows what else). The Florida job market sucks, and while I might be able to find something else, it would almost certainly be for less pay and less satisfaction than my current job, and definitely less than the NYC opportunity. And despite a nice offer to stay, there is ample evidence that people who get talked out of resigning rarely last because they were leaving for a reason or because they've illustrated a willingness to leave to their employer.

I can take the job, and while the next 8 months will SUCK, it also allows me to test-drive the job/city/commute etc. If I hate it, I can make the decision to stay in Florida and will need to look for a job - but that could happen anyone. If I like it, great. Either way, I won't know unless I try, so why not bet on myself and take the near-term risk in return for the chance at success...

www.yodle.com is the new company. Any thoughts on them?

[WillHunting]

Never heard of the company. Good luck with your move to here. If you need anything, just holler.

[F308GTB]

http://www.yodle.com is the new company. Any thoughts on them?

This place? http://lawyerist.com/yodle-pushy-sales-tactics/

Personally, I would NEVER live in NYC. Cost of living is way too high between housing, food, putting kids in a decent school. Sounds like you really want to leave your current place, and perhaps the better option is accepting your current offer of a raise from your company and still look around for something better in a better location - better in terms of the whole package for your family, not just the potential (and frankly, it is potential, not a sure thing) for your career growth.