All Pro Football 2k8 impressions

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:52 pm

So long as I enjoy the game I guess it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, but I'd like to ask you guys that are saying that it's still 2k5 gameplay and that isn't worth $60, how do you justify paying $60 for Madden/NCAA every year? Maybe you don't, and that's okay, but otherwise it seems a little hypocritical to me. I mean, Tiburon is just now adding things that 2k5 had 3 years ago (and they still haven't added multiple camera angles, referees, etc.).

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:56 pm

ScoopBrady wrote:I can understand why people don't think it's worth the money but I'm honestly surprised people around here would feel that way. This place seems to have adopted a features first then gameplay mentality. Not that that is bad, it's just so different than what the majority used to care about. Are we all still in this hobby for fun? I know I am.

Scoop the gameplay is 2K5 with more animations and a little more polish. Take out features from 2k5 and then slap a $60 price tag on it. You make it sound like they are missing a new enginer or something. Many people don't want to spend money on something like that.

Don't get me wrong I am finding it fun as hell right now and I got more then I was expecting from it. But lets not shine it up and call it the greatest game ever.

If people have NCAA (which from my friends list is just about everyone) then they might ask why they need this game. IMO the gameplay gap between the 2K series and the NCAA series has closed so significantly that it is a legitmate question.

I actually think from a player perspective NCAA controls 100% better then APF. What sets APF apart is the immersion factor. The crowd, the sidelines, the player interaction:

I mean whens the last time you saw a tight end and a Lb get in a handcheck battle off the line of scrimage.

I've never seen a QB throw the ball while being tackles. I've never seen a WR run a route like they do in this game. Seens a player stumble and recover to make a play. Seen a kicker slip, a linemen get up holding his back from being chopped etc.

All of it looks so real you get immersed, you smile you enjoy the hell out of it. You sit at work and think about playing the game.

I'm smiling as I type all of that, then I realize it's day 2 with the game and I ask at some point will the game play control start to kill that enjoyment. Will playing a bland season mode over and over again cut it? If someone asked me is this game worth it could i give a resonding yes?

As my friend just said to me an hour ago, "why on earth would you buy 2 football games on the same day?"

Some of us our just nuts about football games I guees

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:57 pm

GTHobbes wrote:So long as I enjoy the game I guess it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, but I'd like to ask you guys that are saying that it's still 2k5 gameplay and that isn't worth $60, how do you justify paying $60 for Madden/NCAA every year? Maybe you don't, and that's okay, but otherwise it seems a little hypocritical to me. I mean, Tiburon is just now adding things that 2k5 had 3 years ago (and they still haven't added multiple camera angles, referees, etc.).

Most people complain about the cost every year for Madden and NCAA as well...especially when we made the jump to the Next Gen and they stripped out features. At least they gave us a decent franchise mode from the jump and they changed the gameplay mechanics significantly from xbox-360. 2k5 is 2k8 with different colors...3 years later. That's the difference.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:05 pm

GTHobbes wrote:So long as I enjoy the game I guess it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, but I'd like to ask you guys that are saying that it's still 2k5 gameplay and that isn't worth $60, how do you justify paying $60 for Madden/NCAA every year? Maybe you don't, and that's okay, but otherwise it seems a little hypocritical to me. I mean, Tiburon is just now adding things that 2k5 had 3 years ago (and they still haven't added multiple camera angles, referees, etc.).

Gameplay generally stays the same in every series. It's not that its 2K5 gameplay, it is that it is 2k5 gameplay with stripped out features. They made this as a game for their fans and to be played online. They pigeon holed themselves, no one else did this to them.

While you may not like the Madden / NCAA gameplay you would be lying if you said they didn't make improvements to it this year. I'm not saying that APF didn't make improvements because they did makle some but NCAA also specifically bolstered their CL mode to the level of the Show RTTS status and made one hell of an improvement to their recruiting.

So in the end its not about the gameplay, it is about the features. I think it is poor strategy to bank your main "theme" in online play at this point.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:07 pm

I'm with DB on this one. Who doesn't complain about to cost of Madden? Take away the licenses and they'd be in the same boat as 2K if they released a feature-challenged title.

I don't know why people are complaining about the lack of a franchise in 2K. No franchise is only a slight drop from the disaster that was the franchise mode in the series.

I'll buy the game when it either drops to the $40 price it needs to be, I can buy it on ebay for that amount, or I hear some impressions that the game is something I shouldn't miss and/or haven't played 3 years ago. A demo or an actual review or two would be nice as well. Meanwhile, I'll continue to "not have fun" and experience utter misery in my hobby playing games like The Show, NCAA 08, F1, NHL 08, and NBA 2K7

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:23 pm

Well the game might be light on options but it kills NCAA in the gameplay department.

Don't get me wrong NCAA is a solid title but for me it's the difference between FIFA 07 (XB) and WE9. FIFA was overly simple but a lot of fun. NCAA is a simple game but a lot of fun with good features.

APF isn't good because it's different, it's good because it plays solid football.

slyguy · Post by **slyguy** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:28 pm

Inuyasha wrote:I am already tiring of the game. The problem with me is that whatever team I create, it seems like they are too strong to go up against some of the other teams in the season.

I only have played a few games in my season against teams without that many stars, so maybe if I go up against a team with more stars, it'll get more challenging.

Have you played the Iron men yet? They have a very good offense. The good o-line is very good, really good offensive players Marino Ditka Gault and two other silver WR's. i'm only 3 games into my season but i'm liking it so far

slyguy · Post by **slyguy** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:41 pm

Danimal wrote:Well the good news is after 7 or 8 games and making 2 or 3 teams I am still enjoying playing the game. But there are plenty of warts with this game and some of them are on the field not just with lack of modes.

- DB still do dumb thigns at time, I am not sure if this is meant to be in there or not. I means its one thing for a Safety to jump the wrong guy on a route and leave the middle open, it happens.

But it is another thing for a guy in a 3 deep zone to just stand there while Jerry Rice runs by him. It could very well be that the gold legends are just too much for generic and Bronze DB's. It hasn't killed my enjoyment of the game yet because it doesn't happen everytime, which had already happened in 2K5 so thats good.

- Has anyone returned a punt, seriously? When I field a punt there are always 4 to 5 guys sitting there waiting to tackle me while my guys are up near the LOS.

- Big plays inseatd of drives is the way to score in this game. Maybe its my play style etc. But everytime the CPU scores on me it is a big play from a RB or Rice (Rice is too overpowered in this game) I've yet to have the cpu put together a methodical drive. Luckly this isn't the case in my online experiences.

- Player control is my biggest problem with the game. If you like playing LB or DB on defense the controls are just sluggish. Most of the time an animation is going to carry you out of the play. Hit Y or A on a pass and watch the ball go by your head before the animation even starts. You really have to react too early for it to be timed properly.

I find it best to not even touch the stick with my LB until he is actually near the play. Which kind of kills the fun and playing D-Line really bores me.

As always YMMV

I have returned a punt all the way. Also 2 kick returns. But i do agree with you about the punts they are right on you. maybe change your returner.Yeah it does seem that way that the CPU does have quick scoring drives. I have a mix of both. One drive i had was pretty long and when i got the touch down it said, that drive was sponsored by RIDICULOUSLY LONG DRIVE and something else which i thought was pretty funny

TheHiddenTrack · Post by **TheHiddenTrack** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:49 pm

JRod wrote:Well the game might be light on options but it kills NCAA in the gameplay department.

Don't get me wrong NCAA is a solid title but for me it's the difference between FIFA 07 (XB) and WE9. FIFA was overly simple but a lot of fun. NCAA is a simple game but a lot of fun with good features.

APF isn't good because it's different, it's good because it plays solid football.

Exactly. And while it's similar to 2k5 it's actually quite different. For all the people saying they are the same, go back and play 2k5...APF is so much more polished, the coverage is WAY better (not perfect, but it's not perfect in real life either), if you throw into tight coverage you'll pay for it, the offensive line blocking is amazing, you can't get away with doing as many stupid video game things... etc etc

The game is 2k5 and then if they took about a year or so to turn it into the best simulation of football they could.

Sure, the problems with the features and everything has been discussed and I can't argue...but overall, this game is worth the money to me because it's by far the best simulation of football...ever.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:49 pm

GTHobbes wrote:I'd like to ask you guys that are saying that it's still 2k5 gameplay and that isn't worth $60, how do you justify paying $60 for Madden/NCAA every year? Maybe you don't, and that's okay, but otherwise it seems a little hypocritical to me. I mean, Tiburon is just now adding things that 2k5 had 3 years ago (and they still haven't added multiple camera angles, referees, etc.).

Well, again I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the main thing is player control. Even with the last couple of Maddens and NCAA last year, which were much more '2K' in the feel of the players than in the old-gen versions, I still felt much more in control of my player and in a more realistic, momentum filled way than I ever have in 2K football. That's a big, big deal to me, especially on the defensive side of the ball. This year's NCAA has really taken a massive step in the right direction in that regard, with what they call 'branching animations' and so on (I still haven't seen one instance of Mario running, not one - looks like they replaced it with rampant clipping!!

). Also, I am relatively immune to the hallowed 2K 'immersion' factor, in large part because of my fatigue with the 'you can't teach that' shtick in the booth, which it sounds like has arrived straight from 2K5 in toto.

i could make a list a mile long of what I dislike about the tiburon engine in Madden and NCAA; it's far from perfect, but it's my preference. I don't think it's coincidence that VC was the dev. on the Madden 96 that never was released, and EA sent the franchise to tiburon to great success.

Further, part of what I am paying for is the NFL/ NFLPA license and the NCAA license, and I'm fine with that. I'm getting out of it what I expect in that regard, even though, again, there are a ton of things I feel are lacking.

Bottom line is that even though I enjoy 2K football, I've just never been a huge fan. I've certainly never been of the '2K is the greatest, Madden is teh suck' camp. The things that bother me in the 2K engine bother me a lot more than the things that bother me in the Tiburon engine. A lot of that has to do with player control, the moment to moment gameplay experience. NCAA has made some pretty big strides in that regard this time around, and I'm thankful for it.

All that said, if there is any kind of automated 2K league system, complete with the website (hope it's not bug-alicious like it was in the NCAA hoops game), I can see myself playing a crapload of 2K in a league format with injuries, trades (?) stat compilation, automated schedules, etc. etc. Is there an online league system for this game? Would that it had a draft as well, if there were. That would be the shiznit! And then trades, injuries, the non-drafted legends out there as free agents. . . .

HipE · Post by **HipE** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:20 pm

I don't believe there is a webpage for leagues like there was in NFL2K5. As far as a draft, since you play with whatever team you have created offline, what people are doing is just holding an offline draft, and then you create your team for the league by picking the people you drafted. You wouldn't be able to trade players during the season, but I guess you could just do it in the "offseason".

The game so far has been pretty much what I thought it would be, and I'm really enjoying it. I can see why people don't want to pay full price for it though. I don't spend too much time gaming anymore, so lack of a franchise mode doesn't really affect me, especially considering what Leebo said about 2k's history of broken franchise modes. Right now I'm having fun just creating different teams and using them in the single season mode. The gameplay is exactly what I was hoping for, which is basically a finely tuned version of 2K5, and the inclusion of legends that all play so differently really makes it feel fresh. For instance, try going against the Chicago team that has Reggie White and Too Tall Jones on the dline without changing your pass protection. You better hope you have Dan Marino as your qb with his quick release (I did) or you will see sack after sack. I'm sure I will end up with NCAA 08 when it gets closer to college football season, but for right now the legends and 2K gameplay is definitely worth my 60 bucks.

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:50 pm

The games are $60 because their on next gen systems and the companies can get away selling them for $60.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:50 pm

JRod wrote:Well the game might be light on options but it kills NCAA in the gameplay department.

I totally disagree, while it is better it doesn't kill it in the gameplay department. Where it kills it is in the animations and immersion. But that's all smoke and mirror stuff, when it comes down to gameplay without the "looks" it has almost as many problems as NCAA.

An before the inveitable I'm an EA fanboy crap, I've spent twice as much time with APF since I got it and then with NCAA (retail) I am having a blast with APF and I don't even think I will be putting in any time with NCAA until the weekend at best.

HipE · Post by **HipE** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:55 pm

I forgot to mention how great the online play for this game is. Maybe I have just been lucky, but so far I haven't been able to tell any difference when playing online vs offline, there hasn't been even a hint of lag. And since everyone is playing with teams they created, nobody can complain about the matchups not being even, so you don't have to limit the team you choose based on your opponent's team like in past NCAA and NFL games.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:17 pm

I guess I just look at this hobby differently. All I heard before the release of Shadowrun was that it wasn't a $60 game because there was no single player. Well, I've played that game for at least 60 hours so I've already gotten $1 per hour of entertainment. That's dirt cheap. I can definitely see myself playing a full season and plenty of online games with this one. That would easily provide me with over 20 hours of entertainment out of the game costing me only $3 per hour of entertainment. I'd say I'd have gotten my money's worth.

After 2 years of only EA football this is a very welcome addition. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of NCAA and Madden, but having a new 2k game is awesome. There's only so many times I can eat a cheese and sausage pizza, sometimes I want to order one with Italian beef and giardiniera.

All I'm trying to say is look at what is there instead of what is not.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:59 pm

Do we have enough people to at least try a tournament?

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:15 pm

Absolutely... I am ready for a tournament. I agree that the online arena is uniquely comforting, in that everyone's got basically the same resources to put together a team.

Sport73 · Post by **Sport73** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:19 pm

I've returned punts for TD's, but the return game is one place where you'll instantly see the difference between a star player and a scrub. Get a silver or gold star WR and return specialist and watch your return yards soar.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:44 pm

ScoopBrady wrote:I guess I just look at this hobby differently. All I heard before the release of Shadowrun was that it wasn't a $60 game because there was no single player. Well, I've played that game for at least 60 hours so I've already gotten $1 per hour of entertainment. That's dirt cheap. I can definitely see myself playing a full season and plenty of online games with this one. That would easily provide me with over 20 hours of entertainment out of the game costing me only $3 per hour of entertainment. I'd say I'd have gotten my money's worth.

After 2 years of only EA football this is a very welcome addition. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of NCAA and Madden, but having a new 2k game is awesome. There's only so many times I can eat a cheese and sausage pizza, sometimes I want to order one with Italian beef and giardiniera.

All I'm trying to say is look at what is there instead of what is not.

You can thank that f*** head Zeppo for DSP's god damn obsession with stupid ass shadow run. BTW when are we going online with it again.

As someone said before, the more I play NCAA the more I want to get back to play APF. There are some minor issues with it. And I have my own personal issues with the options of this game.

But when you throw a lob to the corner of the endzone and to have it inches away from the DB is a great feeling. In NCAA, the DB would have jumped the route backwards and picked it off. (DBs in NCAA always seem to know where the ball is and then make unrealsitc interceptions).

seanmac31 · Post by **seanmac31** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:22 pm

It's funny- I wonder how much VC hurt their brand when they went to a $19.99 pricing. On the one hand, it absolutely upped their userbase, but it also seems to have permanently impacted how people view their game. The general consensus among the people who are reluctant to try the game/are unimpressed by it is, "This is 2K5, only $40 more!" And that's true, technically. But 2K5 was offering a $50 experience for $20 back then- their game was every bit as good if not better than Madden 05, which was priced normally. And yet, with Madden having offered two underwhelming games in a row, nobody gets up and makes the particular complaint that it should only cost $20.

Anyway, I'm liking the game a lot. Without question, it's superior to Madden 06, which I paid $60 for, Madden 07, which I also paid $60, and NCAA 07, which I paid $60 for. Whether it's better than Madden 08 remains to be seen, but I can't make the argument that I'm not getting my money's worth.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:05 pm

ScoopBrady wrote:I guess I just look at this hobby differently. All I heard before the release of Shadowrun was that it wasn't a $60 game because there was no single player. Well, I've played that game for at least 60 hours so I've already gotten $1 per hour of entertainment. That's dirt cheap. I can definitely see myself playing a full season and plenty of online games with this one. That would easily provide me with over 20 hours of entertainment out of the game costing me only $3 per hour of entertainment. I'd say I'd have gotten my money's worth.

After 2 years of only EA football this is a very welcome addition. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of NCAA and Madden, but having a new 2k game is awesome. There's only so many times I can eat a cheese and sausage pizza, sometimes I want to order one with Italian beef and giardiniera.

All I'm trying to say is look at what is there instead of what is not.

I was thinking about Shadowrun as well, as I saw all the people upset with the price point of this game. Some people may stand on principle and choose not to buy it, but economically speaking that's pretty inconsistent with how most of us around here approach the hobby. Judging by my experience around here, most DSP'ers have the inclination (if not the means) to buy virtually any game that they want.

Many of us own multiple systems and have many games that we play little or not at all sitting on shelves. Despite the perennial grumbling about the state of gaming (virtually a hobby within a hobby), there are many more gaming hours available to us than we are able to use.

In effect, it's the marginal value of one gaming experience over another that determines if most of us around here drop $ on a game. If a game isn't good enough to bump out other games in our rotation, we aren't going to buy it. That's a much more significant factor than the $20 difference in price.

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:20 pm

Here's one way I'd counter the argument that this game lacks longevity offline:

I'm in the third game of my season, going up against the New York Knights (an away game). I've got a team of old ex-Steelers (Lambert, Woodson, Lloyd, Barry Foster, L.C. Greenwood, Dermonti Dawson, Eric Green, Merrill Hoge, Yancey Thigpen and Neil O'Donnell), along with Ray Guy (can't beat Ray Guy as punter) dressed in uniforms that are fairly close in resemblance to the Steelers' going up against a NY team that has Walter Payton, Johnny Unitas, Jan Stenerud and others that play entirely different than the first 2 teams I played in my season. (One of those had Earl Campbell as their feature back, and the other had Butkus.) Every week in the season is new and giving me something to look forward to as the season goes along.

I love NFL licensed games as much as the next guy, if not more, but I can't say I'm always looking forward to playing the Tampa Bay Bucs or the Washington Redskins whenever I fire up my Steelers franchise in Madden (or in 2k football games from years past.) The only point I'm trying to make here is, I think there's a lot more to enjoy than meets the eye.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:02 pm

GT: Here's the problem with that. In the NFL you basically know the teams from watching football, so the newness in APF could be due to the teams. But since the APF teams are static just like the NFL teams there's no new competition.

I see what you are saying but I think it's the newness factor right now.

Like I've said before the legends idea is fantastic but was poorly executed by 2k sports. A franchise mode could be a year two idea. A great season mode should have been a year 1 mode.

2k Sports should have approached the legends in the manner most sports fans approach legends. What would happen in a season if Montana didn't have Rice. Or if Marino had a RB. Or if Lott, Singletary and the Fridge could face off against Elway, Sharpe, Barry. Changing those teams around would have added just enough of a different gameplay experience every season in the first iteration game.

Zlax45 · Post by **Zlax45** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:16 pm

Jrod, Lets hope 2kSports adds that to this game with DLC!!

We can always hope.

GTHobbes · Post by **GTHobbes** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:29 pm

I agree it could just be the newness, JRod...but then again, part of the enjoyment is seeing all these new stadiums, each with their own personality, and a team unique to the city....