360's Are Coming!

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:34 pm

pk500 wrote:The lack of supply is a bummer, but the number of defective consoles has scared me from buying a 360 anytime soon more than the man hours it might take to find one.

There sure seems to be a lot of defective 360s. I'm reading posts here from dudes like Mix and Danimal who are on their THIRD 360, and the damn thing hasn't been on the market two months. They're not alone: There's a thread about defective 360s at OS that's longer than Jack Abramoff's lobbying crony list.

That frightens this consumer, especially since the unit costs $400. I expect better quality for an investment like that.

Sure, the PS2 had quite a few defective units at and shortly after launch. But per capita for the number of systems Microsoft shipped to the U.S., the number of defective 360s sure seems a hell of a lot higher.

To me, that's an even more serious issue than the lack of supply in the U.S. market. I'd rather have $400 in my pocket and no 360 under my TV than be $400 lighter and have a busted white box under my set.

Take care,
PK

Wait if you will, PK, but two important points.

1. Despite the seemingly impressive size of the DSP community, it's hardly enough to constitute a representative sample. Moreover, those of us without defective 360s aren't posting about our lack of problems, which creates a bit of a false impression.

2. MS has, by every account I've seen, been terrific about repair and replacing the problem units.

Thus, it's pretty unlikely that you would have a busted white box and quite likely that should you end up with one, it would be repaired with minimal headache.

Trust me, the new XBL experience is worth it by itself

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:38 pm

Rob:

I'm not saying the defects are approaching epidemic proportions, but there do seem to be a lot more posts here and other forums about busted 360s than other consoles or portables I can recall.

I'm glad MS has adopted great service and repair policies. But that doesn't mollify me much. There's absolutely no reason why someone should be on their third 360 within two months of launch. That's past the realm of bad luck in my eyes, and this isn't a throwaway, $10 Hong Kong controller that you expect to break after 10 hours of hard use.

Just as MS did by replacing the crap Thomson drives in the original Xboxes with Samsung and Philips drives, I expect the company to address the recurring problems with the 360 in upcoming manufacturing runs.

Take care,
PK

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:40 pm

pk500 wrote:
Danimal wrote:Plus you would assume that the supply and defect issues will be long worked out by then.

Also keep this in mind PK.

I know 10 other people here at work and about another 6 who have 360's. so out of 17 know systems, I am the only one with a bad one. I'm sure that percentage works into the norm on defects, I got unlucky with my replacement is all that happened, the speed and service though has been great.

I have to tell you I am on going on my 3rd unit and the only thing that bugs me is that I don't have my system to play. It is such a well design system / interface that I just miss not having it.

AcemanPR · Post by **AcemanPR** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:50 pm

Rough estimates is that 3% of launch units have been defective. But I think not all those defects were necessarily related to the console itself. I know a dozen people that have 360s, and none of us have had a single problem. I visit quite a few messageboards, and this one seems to be tops in # of defective units. I've only read of one other defective one at boards I visit.

mixdj1 · Post by **mixdj1** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:53 pm

My third unit is working great and has none of the issues the first two had. I believe my second unit was actually another unit sent in for repairs that got mistakenly sent out to me. It had signs of being handled with smudges on the case and the system booted up in Spanish and didn't go through the setup process. The manufacture date was mid-october which was the same as my original system.

The new system has a mid-december manufacture date and is much quiter and the air coming out the back is much cooler. Despite a couple weeks of headaches and lots of grumbling due to not having a system, I am still very happy with the 360.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:05 pm

Danimal wrote:How is it a gift?

It's a gift because they gave Sony an opening. Had they shipped 1.5 million consoles before Chrsitmas, Sony would be a lot more worried than they are right now.

DSP and OS do not represent the majority of gamers. Just how many sales has MS lost because people couldn't find one for Christmas? Granted, some of those people will get one the moment they see one on a shelf, but a lot won't. Many will live with what they have until they see the PS3. Now, if Sony blows it doesn't get the PS3 out this year, they give a gift back to MS. That still doesn't change things right now, and as of right now MS gave Sony a gift by falling short of expectations.

Even if you don't consider the lauch so far to be a failure, it is at the very least a significant dissappointment.

I don't even know why I'm arguing my opinions. I'll just go back to playing No Mercy on my N64, and 2k5, MVP, Superfly, X-Men Legends, etc... on my Xbox

jLp vAkEr0 · Post by **jLp vAkEr0** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:10 pm

pk500 wrote:Rob:

I'm not saying the defects are approaching epidemic proportions, but there do seem to be a lot more posts here and other forums about busted 360s than other consoles or portables I can recall.

This in some way has made the wait to get a 360 fairly easy.

But no doubt, as soon as I can get one, I will grab it.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:22 pm

matthewk wrote:It's a gift because they gave Sony an opening.

If Sony can't ship the PS3 to the U.S. for another 10 months, I would consider that opening to be closed.

Take care,
PK

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:33 pm

pk500 wrote:
matthewk wrote:It's a gift because they gave Sony an opening.
If Sony can't ship the PS3 to the U.S. for another 10 months, I would consider that opening to be closed.

Take care,
PK

Very true. Also, considering the sheer power and complexity of the "Cell" processor, how many issues will Sony encounter with their machine? The graphics chip, RSX is a modified nVidia 7800 GTX which in itself is over 220 million transistors and runs pretty hot even in most PC's with adequate cooling. Sony is going to have their hands full trying to jam all of that horsepower into such a compact form factor and have it run troublefree.

On top of that, I am hearing that while the "Cell" ands RSX are very powerful, they are at this point in time, much more complex and challenging to program for, just like the "Emotion Engine" was in the PS2. It took a while for developers to "get their hands around" the PS2 and I am hearing it will be the same, if not more complicated for the PS3. Both consoles present a real challenge to programmers and developers, but I do believe that the ace in the hole for the 360 is the XNA initiative and programming environment. From what I understand it is very powerful and is very helpful to programmers as they come to grips with understanding the capabilities and limitations of the 360 hardware.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:00 pm

matthewk wrote: It's a gift because they gave Sony an opening. Had they shipped 1.5 million consoles before Chrsitmas, Sony would be a lot more worried than they are right now.

As has been pointed out, they need to ship within 6 months for this to be an opening, highly doubt that will happen.

Also, I consider not showcasing / hihglighting or barely mentioning the PS3 at CES a sign that Sony is privately very concerned.

DSP and OS do not represent the majority of gamers. Just how many sales has MS lost because people couldn't find one for Christmas? Granted, some of those people will get one the moment they see one on a shelf, but a lot won't. Many will live with what they have until they see the PS3.

I totally disagree with that. If it was promised as an Xmas gift, people are still searching. Hard core gamers are still looking, hell some dumb people are still waiting on Gs / EB to fulfill their pre-orders. The fact that on New years eve, there were a ton of Mom's / Dad's with kids waiting for one at Walmart is not what I consider people waiting for the PS3.

Even if you don't consider the lauch so far to be a failure, it is at the very least a significant dissappointment.

Yes, i agree it is a disappointment because of limited supply.

I don't even know why I'm arguing my opinions. I'll just go back to playing No Mercy on my N64, and 2k5, MVP, Superfly, X-Men Legends, etc... on my Xbox

I didn't know any of us were arguing, just stating that we feel the opposite of what you said to be true. I actually thought this has been one of the more thought out and considerate discussion on these forums lately. Just because some of us don't agree with you, doesn't make it an argument. Just think how sweet it will be for you, if the PS3 launches in May.

[/quote]

anchester · Post by **anchester** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:19 pm

Dave wrote:The worldwide launch turned out to be a bad idea. If you have devoted customers still searching for consoles at this point while Japan can't sell them, then it is a tactical error.

I think they screwed up by not being able to deliver more consoles to their key market during Christmas.

I also don't buy the "Japanese won't buy a foreign console" stuff, either. It isn't like all American company-made electronics collect dust. MS' offerings just aren't attractive to them.

please elaborate, i would be curious to know what american made products do well in japan. Perhaps a dell computer or an ipod maybe. However since sony (a japanese company) is a leader in the game industry, i do think that Japan would not ever support a US console b/c they probably feel they don't need to. Japan is pretty darn supportive of their products first. Even european cars are not as successful in japan.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:22 pm

I agree with the concerns about Sony's ability to deliver the PS3 this calendar year. The no-show at CES isn't a good sign at all. It seems like they could have capitalized on the 360 shortages by wow-ing everyone with their monster system.

MS needs to expand beyond "hardcore gamers" with this console and I bet they have given up on trying to get one for the time being.

For those not as into gaming, I wonder how much they care about this hardware power battle?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:35 pm

anchester wrote:please elaborate, i would be curious to know what american made products do well in japan. Perhaps a dell computer or an ipod maybe. However since sony (a japanese company) is a leader in the game industry, i do think that Japan would not ever support a US console b/c they probably feel they don't need to. Japan is pretty darn supportive of their products first. Even european cars are not as successful in japan.

So, the Japanese don't drink Coke? They don't use Microsoft operating systems on their PC's?

Plus every Silicon Valley company that supplies parts and software for electronics devices, especially mobile communications, is successful in Japan or has forged successful partnerships with Japanese companies. NVIDIA would be a good example.

Examples of American companies outside of the "silicon sector" besides Coke that have done well in Japan are Nestle, Proctor & Gamble, AFLAC, Jack Daniel's, Harley-Davidson and Northwest Airlines. In fact, AFLAC -- yes, the insurance company with the talking duck -- has a separate Japanese division to deal with all the success it has had in Nippon.

Take care,
PK

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:56 pm

From what I've read, the iPod destroys other MP3 players (sales-wise) in Japan, too.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:04 pm

I don't want to get into another stupid argument about Sony - MS. I have no particular loyalty to any company or to a piece of electronics, but based on the way Sony has done business the last few months, I would not count on them making all the right decisions about this console. I know the people in this division are not the same idiots in their music division who seem determined to alienate the few consumers left willing to actually buy music CDs, but the company as a whole does not seem to be having much success lately. I don't see a slam dunk one way or the other this generation. Hell, Nintendo may surprise everyone.

And if Japanese consumers are being 'loyal' to Sony, are they being loyal because it is a Japanese company? Isn't the new CEO from Wales? Companies are pretty multinational at this point. The last "American" car I owned had an engine manufactured in Japan. My Camry was made in the US.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:07 pm

The exorbidant-bundle-only crap is getting pretty old. Barnes & Noble showed up as in stock, and of course you have to buy 50 games and 40 pounds of extra s*** for $900. And of course it will be sold out by the end of today.

What's frustrating is that, as both a gamer and an ardent XBox supporter, I am ready and willing to fork over several hundred bucks for a 360 and a couple of games. Yet the only options I have are to dip my toe into the greed-filled chum water that is EBay, pay a king's ransom for a gianormous online bundle, or quit my job and camp out at the Target or Wal-Mart loading dock.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:53 pm

Brando70 wrote:What's frustrating is that, as both a gamer and an ardent XBox supporter, I am ready and willing to fork over several hundred bucks for a 360 and a couple of games. Yet the only options I have are to dip my toe into the greed-filled chum water that is EBay, pay a king's ransom for a gianormous online bundle, or quit my job and camp out at the Target or Wal-Mart loading dock.

You do have at least one other option. Sit back and enjoy your Xbox until 360s begin to flood the stores.

The main reasons I can wait:
MVP and NCAA baseball
Moto GP & Superfly
NFL 2k5

The closest you can get to any of these on the 360 is Madden in place of 2k5. The rest don't even have a comparable option on the 360 yet.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:54 pm

pk500 wrote:
matthewk wrote:It's a gift because they gave Sony an opening.
If Sony can't ship the PS3 to the U.S. for another 10 months, I would consider that opening to be closed.

I agree 100%. Sony is just as likely to dissappoint as MS is

F308GTB · Post by **F308GTB** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:18 pm

Until you've been to Japan, it's hard to talk about what they buy and what they don't buy. As someone who has been there a dozen times in the last 4 years, I've got an idea how they spend their money:

food - fast food is popular (McDonalds, Wendys, KFC), restaurants are popular (Fridays, Outback, El Torito), coffee is popular (Starbucks everywhere), ...
electronics/computers - Dells, iPods, US software
toys/kids - Peanuts (they are nuts for Peanuts), Disney junk (I could probably find some scary pictures of urban fashion using Mickey or Minnie), Thomas the Train (OK, not American, but Western nonetheless)
clothing/luxury goods - not as much US fashion here but they go nuts for French/Italian labels. In fact, Western luxury goods are coveted by the Japanese. You've never seen so many Bulgari, Coach, Armani, Cartier, Prado, etc shops in your life.

Making a generalization, the Japanese culture is one that craves stability. They don't necessarily jump at new technology (yes, it's surprising considering how technology driven they are). They like tried and true products. Throw in the fact that the Xbox games by and large don't cater to Japanese tastes and you have a recipe for sluggish sales there.

anchester wrote:
Dave wrote:The worldwide launch turned out to be a bad idea. If you have devoted customers still searching for consoles at this point while Japan can't sell them, then it is a tactical error.

I think they screwed up by not being able to deliver more consoles to their key market during Christmas.

I also don't buy the "Japanese won't buy a foreign console" stuff, either. It isn't like all American company-made electronics collect dust. MS' offerings just aren't attractive to them.
please elaborate, i would be curious to know what american made products do well in japan. Perhaps a dell computer or an ipod maybe. However since sony (a japanese company) is a leader in the game industry, i do think that Japan would not ever support a US console b/c they probably feel they don't need to. Japan is pretty darn supportive of their products first. Even european cars are not as successful in japan.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:50 pm

A bit of statistical proof that MS screwed the pooch with the 360 launch. The December NPD console sales numbers, from a post at OS:

PS2 - 1.5 million
PSP - 1.12 million
GBA - 1,213,196
GCN - 606,423
DS - 1.07 million
Xbox - 415K
Xbox 360 - 281,441

Dead last during the first full month of launch. Well done.

Take care,
PK

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:38 pm

I'm really happy to see those PSP numbers.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:03 pm

pk500 wrote:
Dead last during the first full month of launch. Well done.

Take care,
PK

Dismal, yes. If one were to look at the bright side, there is only one way to go from here....

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:10 pm

DivotMaker wrote:
pk500 wrote:
Dead last during the first full month of launch. Well done.

Take care,
PK
Dismal, yes. If one were to look at the bright side, there is only one way to go from here....

Ever the optimist, buddy!

Take care,
PK

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:23 pm

pk500 wrote:A bit of statistical proof that MS screwed the pooch with the 360 launch. The December NPD console sales numbers, from a post at OS:

PS2 - 1.5 million
PSP - 1.12 million
GBA - 1,213,196
GCN - 606,423
DS - 1.07 million
Xbox - 415K
Xbox 360 - 281,441

Dead last during the first full month of launch. Well done.

Take care,
PK

Didn't the 360 launch with only about 10 days left in November and aren't NPD numbers based on a whole month? I still think that sucks, just curious how that can be a full month unless they did some adjusting.

Still if even what I say is true, that means there talk about selling 300k+ at launch was BS.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:30 pm

One thing that I've noticed is that the smaller market penetration seems to have translated into a much better ratio of quality random opponents online. I've seldom run across L33t retards or 11 year olds, even in Madden & NBA2k6.