Good race.[Forza] Grand Prix of Laguna Seca
Moderators: Bill_Abner, ScoopBrady
[Forza] Grand Prix of Laguna Seca
That was a fun 25 lapper tonight guys Good race.
Good race.
That was pretty fun, folks. I love a nice long race!
Nice driving Tal on the win! And good job Fshguy of staying above the fray (once you got past me; maybe I would have been better off letting you go right away, to really try to reel Tal in).
I still worry about car balance, though. I mean, I know you're a good driver, Tal, and I know Rumble was also in a CRX, but golly! That was beyond Shumaker like, you lapped everyone but P2! Yowza! I guess that's what Kimi did at Spain, huh? Then again, Fshguy wasn't in much of a car, and he had 2nd nicely locked up, so maybe I need a better car, or maybe just a better setup if I insist on drving that RX-7.
Rumble, glad you learned some lessons
. One thing that makes me a little nervous about longer races are the weird instances of lag-related crashes. I've had a few times online where, while racing with another car or two, lag will casue me suddenly to pop up in the air and immediately have massive damage. It seems like lag kicks in, and then when it clears up, the game will have me and another car occupying the same bit of space, and so BAM we crash. I don't know what happened to Rumble that forced him to pit on lap 5, but I hope it wasn't something weird like that.
Otherwise, it's nice to see that both fuel and tires don't last well enough to make 25 laps, except maybe on the really short, MV Short.
I didn't have any damage at all, so right now I'm thinking we should do this for credits from now on. If we can handle the post-race formation lap, then the payout will be good for everyone but last place. It's easy for me to say that, though, when I didn't hit anything.
I don't know if everyone quite understood how to finish the race. The deal is that we are only racing 24 laps. That means the white flag (indicating the final lap) comes out when the race leader's lap count goes from 23 to 24. The race leader must make sure to announce when he crosses the line and the lap count goes from 23 to 24, to let everyone know that the next time they cross the line they have one lap to go in the race. (That doesn't mean they have only one lap to go to end the session, just the actual competiive, race part of the session; we still all have to get our lap count to 25/25 and line up in order to then drive across the line and end the session.) In fact, it would be good for the race leader to announce '10 to go,' '5 to go' and '3 to go.'
Once the race leader then crosses the line again, making his lap count go from 24/25 to 25/25, the checkered flag is out, and the next time each driver crosses the line, that is the end of his race, no matter what his individual lap count reads. After that, if your lap count doesn't read 25/25, you have to drive around enough times to get that 25/25 to show, and then line up in formation to cross the line the final time, but the actual racing will be done once you cross the line when the checkered flag is out.
It's not really as complicated as I am making it sound, but I'm not sure if everyone last night quite knew what was going on. If we do these races for credits, I think it's important that we all understand how we are ending these races.
Anyway, I am up to try more of these on different circuits. Laguna is one of the shorter circuits. I guess in these low-HP cars, we could stick to the short versions of Atlanta and Silverstone, and when we get up to A or past A, we can do the longer versions. I don't think 40' is too long for a race (it's about as long, with 5-lap warmup, as it takes to play a game of football or something), but, like, Road America will be a long one!
I would like to try a couple more tests, and then maybe think about starting up a league. I need some help figuring out what class, and within that what rules if any regarding car eligibility, we should have for a league. Maybe a D-Class league to start but of only 3 rounds, then C but also nto many rounds, and so on, leading to a big multi-round league in A-Class or S-Class or something? Suggestions are welcome.
Thanks to everyone for taking part! I like the long races, you get into a groove, you can relax a little bit as not every single mistake means the end of the world. I would have like to see more racing go one, the field spread out quite a bit. I hate the stupid way we have to end races. Grrrr. I mean 'COME on!'
(Just a thought: maybe we could do league races with stock cars in free-race mode. That is, eveyone pick say, a B2 or something from the free-race list, not garage cars? Nah, it's nice to have garage cars!)
Nice driving Tal on the win! And good job Fshguy of staying above the fray (once you got past me; maybe I would have been better off letting you go right away, to really try to reel Tal in).
I still worry about car balance, though. I mean, I know you're a good driver, Tal, and I know Rumble was also in a CRX, but golly! That was beyond Shumaker like, you lapped everyone but P2! Yowza! I guess that's what Kimi did at Spain, huh? Then again, Fshguy wasn't in much of a car, and he had 2nd nicely locked up, so maybe I need a better car, or maybe just a better setup if I insist on drving that RX-7.
Rumble, glad you learned some lessons
. One thing that makes me a little nervous about longer races are the weird instances of lag-related crashes. I've had a few times online where, while racing with another car or two, lag will casue me suddenly to pop up in the air and immediately have massive damage. It seems like lag kicks in, and then when it clears up, the game will have me and another car occupying the same bit of space, and so BAM we crash. I don't know what happened to Rumble that forced him to pit on lap 5, but I hope it wasn't something weird like that.Otherwise, it's nice to see that both fuel and tires don't last well enough to make 25 laps, except maybe on the really short, MV Short.
I didn't have any damage at all, so right now I'm thinking we should do this for credits from now on. If we can handle the post-race formation lap, then the payout will be good for everyone but last place. It's easy for me to say that, though, when I didn't hit anything.
I don't know if everyone quite understood how to finish the race. The deal is that we are only racing 24 laps. That means the white flag (indicating the final lap) comes out when the race leader's lap count goes from 23 to 24. The race leader must make sure to announce when he crosses the line and the lap count goes from 23 to 24, to let everyone know that the next time they cross the line they have one lap to go in the race. (That doesn't mean they have only one lap to go to end the session, just the actual competiive, race part of the session; we still all have to get our lap count to 25/25 and line up in order to then drive across the line and end the session.) In fact, it would be good for the race leader to announce '10 to go,' '5 to go' and '3 to go.'
Once the race leader then crosses the line again, making his lap count go from 24/25 to 25/25, the checkered flag is out, and the next time each driver crosses the line, that is the end of his race, no matter what his individual lap count reads. After that, if your lap count doesn't read 25/25, you have to drive around enough times to get that 25/25 to show, and then line up in formation to cross the line the final time, but the actual racing will be done once you cross the line when the checkered flag is out.
It's not really as complicated as I am making it sound, but I'm not sure if everyone last night quite knew what was going on. If we do these races for credits, I think it's important that we all understand how we are ending these races.
Anyway, I am up to try more of these on different circuits. Laguna is one of the shorter circuits. I guess in these low-HP cars, we could stick to the short versions of Atlanta and Silverstone, and when we get up to A or past A, we can do the longer versions. I don't think 40' is too long for a race (it's about as long, with 5-lap warmup, as it takes to play a game of football or something), but, like, Road America will be a long one!
I would like to try a couple more tests, and then maybe think about starting up a league. I need some help figuring out what class, and within that what rules if any regarding car eligibility, we should have for a league. Maybe a D-Class league to start but of only 3 rounds, then C but also nto many rounds, and so on, leading to a big multi-round league in A-Class or S-Class or something? Suggestions are welcome.
Thanks to everyone for taking part! I like the long races, you get into a groove, you can relax a little bit as not every single mistake means the end of the world. I would have like to see more racing go one, the field spread out quite a bit. I hate the stupid way we have to end races. Grrrr. I mean 'COME on!'
(Just a thought: maybe we could do league races with stock cars in free-race mode. That is, eveyone pick say, a B2 or something from the free-race list, not garage cars? Nah, it's nice to have garage cars!)
That, in a nutshell, is why I've all but quit racing Forza online. The first couple of days were a blast when you had varied cars and lots of people feeling things out. After the CRX discovery, it moved on to the WRX/EVO in C's, the Tommy Kaira M20b in B's, etc.Zeppo wrote:I still worry about car balance, though. I mean, I know you're a good driver, Tal, and I know Rumble was also in a CRX, but golly! That was beyond Shumaker like, you lapped everyone but P2!
I really don't feel like racing IROC all the time, and the game is becoming more and more "car" and less and less "driver" with each passing day. I still have a good time offline with it, but I've pretty much thrown in the towel on having fun racing online. I don't like having to run the absolute best car to keep up with the other guys who run the top car, and without the variety it gets a bit boring to me.
At least TOCA will keep some shelf life. Forza is great, but the almost linear approach to supercar racing has completely turned me off.
The Mugen isn't half a bad of a car. I cross posted on the other thread about this race.
I like the independence of picking your own car, but in any class there's going to be 1-3 top cars, so of course people are going to gravitate to them.
Of course, we all like Career mode money, so it'd be nice to stay in those modes even if we don't have sim damage. Also might give some people incentive to turn off their assists if they're going to get a big bonus at the end.
I like the independence of picking your own car, but in any class there's going to be 1-3 top cars, so of course people are going to gravitate to them.
Of course, we all like Career mode money, so it'd be nice to stay in those modes even if we don't have sim damage. Also might give some people incentive to turn off their assists if they're going to get a big bonus at the end.
Yeah, for rooms that I start, I don't mind outlawing the perceived supercars. Even if I open two or three slots for randoms, I will start telling them 'no ___' and if they don't want to listen, they'll get the boot.
The thing is, without being condescending, I would like for the worse drivers to have the super-cars available, while the better drivers would stick to lesser cars. That's tough to demand, and difficult to enforce. It's the kind of idea that led to the game we used to play in PGR2, where everyone except the race winner would step up in class. Of course, Terry would end up three or four classes below everyone before he would come close to losing a race! And remember, he would be stuck in that damn Cayenne for four or five races! But still, most times by the middle of the game, we would have some really fun, competitive races with guys in different class cars, essentially evening the field.
Clearly, I don't win a lot of races in Forza, but I stay away from supercars like the plague. Winning the race is far, far, far less important to me than having a fun and competitive race. I would rather run in the middle or the back and have really competitive races with one or two other cars, than stay out front and win by a large margin. If all I want is to win by a large margin, I can go into offline racing, put the AI difficulty to 'easy' and go. Or just hot-lap with no other car on the track. That seems to me to be essentially the same experience.
That's not to say the goal is not to win, but I'd rather come in 3rd or 4th and have a fun time racing than win without having seen another car after the second or third turn. Obviously, I would rather have competitive racing for first place, but better to me to have competitiveness in the back of the pack than to shoot out front and win with ease. It's not like there are real prizes to be won here. It's clear that among DSPers, we have a wide variety of skill levels. Yet, it's very hard to tell someone that they have to use a lesser car while others in the room are in the better car, so this whole dilemma is a little troublesome. I keep trying to find a car that's not the super-car, yet can still compete for the win. I guess it's not possible. Even so, when I race in random rooms, I am often surprised how well I can do even in a lesser car. I never win, but I often take second or third, since most casual drivers tend to go off once in a while, so it's nice I can at least win credits with these lesser cars. Maybe things will change as I move into A and higher classes, but for C-class it seems like enough guys mess up to let me win credits even in my crappy cars.
The thing is, without being condescending, I would like for the worse drivers to have the super-cars available, while the better drivers would stick to lesser cars. That's tough to demand, and difficult to enforce. It's the kind of idea that led to the game we used to play in PGR2, where everyone except the race winner would step up in class. Of course, Terry would end up three or four classes below everyone before he would come close to losing a race! And remember, he would be stuck in that damn Cayenne for four or five races! But still, most times by the middle of the game, we would have some really fun, competitive races with guys in different class cars, essentially evening the field.
Clearly, I don't win a lot of races in Forza, but I stay away from supercars like the plague. Winning the race is far, far, far less important to me than having a fun and competitive race. I would rather run in the middle or the back and have really competitive races with one or two other cars, than stay out front and win by a large margin. If all I want is to win by a large margin, I can go into offline racing, put the AI difficulty to 'easy' and go. Or just hot-lap with no other car on the track. That seems to me to be essentially the same experience.
That's not to say the goal is not to win, but I'd rather come in 3rd or 4th and have a fun time racing than win without having seen another car after the second or third turn. Obviously, I would rather have competitive racing for first place, but better to me to have competitiveness in the back of the pack than to shoot out front and win with ease. It's not like there are real prizes to be won here. It's clear that among DSPers, we have a wide variety of skill levels. Yet, it's very hard to tell someone that they have to use a lesser car while others in the room are in the better car, so this whole dilemma is a little troublesome. I keep trying to find a car that's not the super-car, yet can still compete for the win. I guess it's not possible. Even so, when I race in random rooms, I am often surprised how well I can do even in a lesser car. I never win, but I often take second or third, since most casual drivers tend to go off once in a while, so it's nice I can at least win credits with these lesser cars. Maybe things will change as I move into A and higher classes, but for C-class it seems like enough guys mess up to let me win credits even in my crappy cars.
-
Sully
- DSP-Funk All-Star
- Posts: 1893
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:00 am
- Location: Middletown, DE
- Contact:
I couldn't agree more. I haven't really raced with it online since last weekend, and really don't have the urge to anymore. Funny thing is, I don't even own a CRX. I don't want to have the "best" car. I race with another group of guys that just want to have fun. They aren't "gear-heads" either, and of all the races we've had in the "D" Class, not once has anyone used the CRX.TCrouch wrote:That, in a nutshell, is why I've all but quit racing Forza online. The first couple of days were a blast when you had varied cars and lots of people feeling things out. After the CRX discovery, it moved on to the WRX/EVO in C's, the Tommy Kaira M20b in B's, etc.Zeppo wrote:I still worry about car balance, though. I mean, I know you're a good driver, Tal, and I know Rumble was also in a CRX, but golly! That was beyond Shumaker like, you lapped everyone but P2!
I really don't feel like racing IROC all the time, and the game is becoming more and more "car" and less and less "driver" with each passing day. I still have a good time offline with it, but I've pretty much thrown in the towel on having fun racing online. I don't like having to run the absolute best car to keep up with the other guys who run the top car, and without the variety it gets a bit boring to me.
At least TOCA will keep some shelf life. Forza is great, but the almost linear approach to supercar racing has completely turned me off.
I don't really understand the bias against "IROC" style races. Since I am not much of a tinkerer with cars, I prefer a level playing field to let the driving skill show through.
The only downside I see in the "IROC" style races is that you cannot accumulate points and you cannot use your custom paint job. The customized paint jobs are admittedly cool, but I do not have a whole lot of time to devote to that anyway. I also like to race each of the different cars in the game without having to worry about being outgunned, although it very satisfying to beat better cars through superior driving skill.
I also like Zeppo's approach used in PGR2. I plan on using that with my brother-in-law and his friends who are still learning to drive.
Count me in favor of having occasional totally stock, no setup, same car races. Even if that puts me in the minority.
The only downside I see in the "IROC" style races is that you cannot accumulate points and you cannot use your custom paint job. The customized paint jobs are admittedly cool, but I do not have a whole lot of time to devote to that anyway. I also like to race each of the different cars in the game without having to worry about being outgunned, although it very satisfying to beat better cars through superior driving skill.
I also like Zeppo's approach used in PGR2. I plan on using that with my brother-in-law and his friends who are still learning to drive.
Count me in favor of having occasional totally stock, no setup, same car races. Even if that puts me in the minority.
Actually, I should rephrase that. By saying "IROC" style, I was way off the mark. I meant that all the cars were CRX's, sort of like looking at an IROC race where everybody looks identical with different colors.
What's under the hood of a CRX is still tweakable, as with any other car. That's pretty cool, but I, too, wish that you could set a room to disallow specific cars or any setup changes, as well as assists.
I would prefer IROC-style racing by far. If you could set it so everybody had the same ratings for accel/speed/grip/etc, yet could choose different model cars, and force assists off, then it would be a true driver's race. Identical everything and you just rely on yourself.
It's not the case right now, because you can't tell if the other guy is using the driving line or automatic tranny or ABS...or what. You just have no idea how "IROC" it really is with regards to racing.
My comment was aimed more at the type of car...you have like 50 cars to choose from in D, but the only one that everybody runs is the CRX. What's the point.
What's under the hood of a CRX is still tweakable, as with any other car. That's pretty cool, but I, too, wish that you could set a room to disallow specific cars or any setup changes, as well as assists.
I would prefer IROC-style racing by far. If you could set it so everybody had the same ratings for accel/speed/grip/etc, yet could choose different model cars, and force assists off, then it would be a true driver's race. Identical everything and you just rely on yourself.
It's not the case right now, because you can't tell if the other guy is using the driving line or automatic tranny or ABS...or what. You just have no idea how "IROC" it really is with regards to racing.
My comment was aimed more at the type of car...you have like 50 cars to choose from in D, but the only one that everybody runs is the CRX. What's the point.
I see. I guess we are on the same page.
I think the only way that is going to happen is to race with guys you trust.
It seems like if you are forced to choose a car that is not from your garage in the non-career mode, then there would be no way to upgrade that car and every one would have the same car.
You might still be able to load a previously save setup for that car make, I don't know. Some people would like that option, others wouldn't.
I think the only way that is going to happen is to race with guys you trust.
It seems like if you are forced to choose a car that is not from your garage in the non-career mode, then there would be no way to upgrade that car and every one would have the same car.
You might still be able to load a previously save setup for that car make, I don't know. Some people would like that option, others wouldn't.
Just to clarify this was a C class CRX, not a D. Big difference. A Subaru STi (and even an EVO VIII) will beat a C class CRX well above 95% of the time assuming equal driver talent. There are a few tracks where I think the lightweight CRX has an advantage because of the constant hard cornering. Laguna may be one of these.
With all that said though I believe the surface of the game has barely been scratched. There have been several major turnovers at the tops of scoreboards in regards to popular car choice. I don't think it's through shaking out qute yet.
If you guys would like me to change cars I have no problem doing so. I always run by the room host's rules.
With all that said though I believe the surface of the game has barely been scratched. There have been several major turnovers at the tops of scoreboards in regards to popular car choice. I don't think it's through shaking out qute yet.
If you guys would like me to change cars I have no problem doing so. I always run by the room host's rules.
Tal, I think I need you to run in a horse and buggy, the way I drive!Talamius wrote:Just to clarify this was a C class CRX, not a D. Big difference. A Subaru STi (and even an EVO VIII) will beat a C class CRX well above 95% of the time assuming equal driver talent. There are a few tracks where I think the lightweight CRX has an advantage because of the constant hard cornering. Laguna may be one of these.
With all that said though I believe the surface of the game has barely been scratched. There have been several major turnovers at the tops of scoreboards in regards to popular car choice. I don't think it's through shaking out qute yet.
If you guys would like me to change cars I have no problem doing so. I always run by the room host's rules.
Seriously, though, I was being pretty toungue in cheek with the CRX C-class stuff. Fshguy stuck with you, and ahead of the rest of us, in a decidedly non-supercar, so clearly it was a case of better driving. I think you should drive whatever car you feel is fair and fun, and you seem to realize better than anyone which cars seem to be mis-classed.
The only issue I have with the CRX itself in the game is that it's overpowered per the real-world car. They make it so you can absolutely FLOOR the gas mid-corner without it breaking traction. In Forza, lightweight and great acceleration kill. It's like Madden almost. The guy who can get on the gas first wins, as it should be.
But the CRX can get HARD on the gas with almost no moderation earlier than any other car within 3 classes. It's just so out of whack with what would really happen if you threw several hundred extra horses under the hood, then lightened it some. The power to weight ratio would make the front tires break traction with even the smallest throttle application, and it doesn't happen in Forza.
Acceleration is almost over-valued in the game, since even if you take a great line through a corner and gobble up somebody with better acceleration, your exit speed is nullified by over-exaggerated acceleration ability. It just doesn't happen on a real track like it does in the game very much.
The other cars I don't really care much about, but the CRX is just so out of whack anywhere because you can make it so light, so powerful, yet still drop the hammer like it weighed 3,500 pounds on a straightaway.
But the CRX can get HARD on the gas with almost no moderation earlier than any other car within 3 classes. It's just so out of whack with what would really happen if you threw several hundred extra horses under the hood, then lightened it some. The power to weight ratio would make the front tires break traction with even the smallest throttle application, and it doesn't happen in Forza.
Acceleration is almost over-valued in the game, since even if you take a great line through a corner and gobble up somebody with better acceleration, your exit speed is nullified by over-exaggerated acceleration ability. It just doesn't happen on a real track like it does in the game very much.
The other cars I don't really care much about, but the CRX is just so out of whack anywhere because you can make it so light, so powerful, yet still drop the hammer like it weighed 3,500 pounds on a straightaway.
Terry, I love to hear your perspective on this stuff. To me, it's just a case of 'that car wins all the races, has nearly all the top times in the scoreboards, it's out of whack.'
I like to have variety in cars, in terms of cornering ability and accel, top speed etc., but still have an overall balance of competitiveness. It seems that each class has a couple cars (or one in the case of D), that really outclass the others. I would rather they base their class division not on real-world classifications, but on relative competitveness in the game. Am I crazy?
I like to have variety in cars, in terms of cornering ability and accel, top speed etc., but still have an overall balance of competitiveness. It seems that each class has a couple cars (or one in the case of D), that really outclass the others. I would rather they base their class division not on real-world classifications, but on relative competitveness in the game. Am I crazy?
We can't abandon this game yet. We haven't even gotten to the prototypes!
I'm always running into the "supercars" when I hop into a random game. I, for one, will stay away from the these cars when racing with you guys going forward. I have too much fun with all of you in this game. I'm just going to get my Audi TT into C class and just race. We can't give up on this yet guys. PK's not even back from Indy.
I'm always running into the "supercars" when I hop into a random game. I, for one, will stay away from the these cars when racing with you guys going forward. I have too much fun with all of you in this game. I'm just going to get my Audi TT into C class and just race. We can't give up on this yet guys. PK's not even back from Indy.